AR-15 Pistol Build - Lets Talk About It

[Eddie Gunks]

force the state to rule what it is.

WE DO NOT WANT THE STATE TO RULE ON IT. WE WONT LIKE WHAT THEY RULE.

 

[Marine Cpl]

That is the million dollar question. Given that it isn't a rifle, isn't a shotgun, and according to the atf isn't a pistol, it seems like it couldn't qualify as an assault weapon in ny regardless of its features. Having said that, I don't have a legal defense fund, so I put a mag lock on mine.

I would certainly be interested in a lawyers opinion, but haven't spent the time or money to get it yet.

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Someone in another thread had mentioned that when there is no definition of something by a state law, it is defaulted to the Federal definition.

I looked up Supremacy Clause and he appears to be correct.

Supremacy Clause - Wikipedia

So since the state definition fails to define a stockless weapon with a forward grip and an overall length of more than 26 inches, the federal definition applies which defines it as a firearm. Since it is considered a firearm it is illegal in NY.

Penal Law 265


S 265.01-b Criminal possession of a firearm.

A person is guilty of criminal possession of a firearm when he or she:
(1) possesses any firearm or; (2) lawfully possesses a firearm prior to the effective date of the chapter of the laws of two thousand thirteen which added this section subject to the registration requirements of subdivision sixteen-a of section 400.00 of this chapter and knowingly fails to register such firearm pursuant to such subdivision.

Criminal possession of a firearm is a class E felony.

 

[twax100]

Is it measured with the brace extended to the furthest position? I guess my question is, what is the longest barrel you can have while staying under 26" overall. With say a shockwave brace.

 

[pmcjuryny]

This^^^^^

I can't find where nys defines pistol, and I did a lot of looking. I would assume that that means one of two things. 1, the use the federal definition, in which case an ar "pistol" with and oal of 26"+ is not a pistol and there fore not an assault weapon regardless of configuration. Or 2, a pistol is what ever the nys AG wants to say it is, in which case we are sol.

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[pmcjuryny]

Someone in another thread had mentioned that when there is no definition of something by a state law, it is defaulted to the Federal definition.

I looked up Supremacy Clause and he appears to be correct.

Supremacy Clause - Wikipedia

So since the state definition fails to define a stockless weapon with a forward grip and an overall length of more than 26 inches, the federal definition applies which defines it as a firearm. Since it is considered a firearm it is illegal in NY.

Penal Law 265


S 265.01-b Criminal possession of a firearm.

A person is guilty of criminal possession of a firearm when he or she:
(1) possesses any firearm or; (2) lawfully possesses a firearm prior to the effective date of the chapter of the laws of two thousand thirteen which added this section subject to the registration requirements of subdivision sixteen-a of section 400.00 of this chapter and knowingly fails to register such firearm pursuant to such subdivision.

Criminal possession of a firearm is a class E felony.

That isn't exactly right as far as I can tell. The federal definition of firearm, is hugely different from the NYS definition of firearm,

Federal

(3)
The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

NYS

3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having
one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle
having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d)
any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or
otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e)
an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the
barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the
distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or
breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the
overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance
between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to
the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique
firearm.

If the supremacy clause means the federal definition of pistol applies to NYS, then the gun we are talking about, a short barrelled, stockless ar-15 would be neither a pistol, shotgun, or rifle, so not an assault weapon per NYS law. It would also not be firearm per NYS law, because it is not a pistol per the federal definition, doesn't meat the definition of a shotgun or rifle, and because it is not a pistol, rifle or shotgun can not be an assault weapon.

 

[Marine Cpl]

That isn't exactly right as far as I can tell. The federal definition of firearm, is hugely different from the NYS definition of firearm,

Federal


NYS


If the supremacy clause means the federal definition of pistol applies to NYS, then the gun we are talking about, a short barrelled, stockless ar-15 would be neither a pistol, shotgun, or rifle, so not an assault weapon per NYS law. It would also not be firearm per NYS law, because it is not a pistol per the federal definition, doesn't meat the definition of a shotgun or rifle, and because it is not a pistol, rifle or shotgun can not be an assault weapon.

What I'm saying is that NYS defines a firearm as a pistol, revolver, or rifle or shotgun under a certain barrel length.

Since NY does not define an "Other" it defaults to a firearm by federal standards.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

Is it measured with the brace extended to the furthest position? I guess my question is, what is the longest barrel you can have while staying under 26" overall. With say a shockwave brace.

11.5 inch barrel and a carbine buffer tube is just over 26 inches over all.

 

[pmcjuryny]

What I'm saying is that NYS defines a firearm as a pistol, revolver, or rifle or shotgun under a certain barrel length.

Since NY does not define an "Other" it defaults to a firearm by federal standards.

Yes, but federal says it is not a pistol, so what part of the NYS definition would it meet?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Yes, but federal says it is not a pistol, so what part of the NYS definition would it meet?

None so it defaults to the federal definition of made to fire a projectile by an explosive.

 

[pmcjuryny]

None so it defaults to the federal definition of made to fire a projectile by an explosive.

correct, but earlier you said

Since it is considered a firearm it is illegal in NY.

Penal Law 265


S 265.01-b Criminal possession of a firearm.

A person is guilty of criminal possession of a firearm when he or she:
(1) possesses any firearm or; (2) lawfully possesses a firearm prior to the effective date of the chapter of the laws of two thousand thirteen which added this section subject to the registration requirements of subdivision sixteen-a of section 400.00 of this chapter and knowingly fails to register such firearm pursuant to such subdivision.

Criminal possession of a firearm is a class E felony.

I am saying that just because it meets the federal definition of a firearm, does not mean that it meets NYS definition of firearm. If we applied the federal definition of Firearm to NYS law, ever single gun would be illegal. You are using the federal definition of firearm, and applying it to NYS law, even though for state law, the state definition superscedes the federal definition.

To be illegal under 265.01, the gun in question needs to meet the definition of firearm as defined in 265.00 (3).

 

[Marine Cpl]

correct, but earlier you said


I am saying that just because it meets the federal definition of a firearm, does not mean that it meets NYS definition of firearm. If we applied the federal definition of Firearm to NYS law, ever single gun would be illegal. You are using the federal definition of firearm, and applying it to NYS law, even though for state law, the state definition superscedes the federal definition.

To be illegal under 265.01, the gun in question needs to meet the definition of firearm as defined in 265.00 (3).

Hmmm. So what happens if you have one with the numbers defaced and the feds come in? Will they say it's just a hunk of metal because you are in NY?

 

[pmcjuryny]

Hmmm. So what happens if you have one with the numbers defaced and the feds come in? Will they say it's just a hunk of metal because you are in NY?

No, that would be a violation of federal law, so the federal definition of "firearm" would be used. However in NY when dealing with NYS Penal code, you use the NYS definition of "Firearm".

 

[spat]

NY doesn't define pistol, ny defines "firearm" and they all require a permit, then it exempts rifles and shotguns. By NY definition, anything that isnt a rifle or shotgun is a firearm and needs to go on a pistol permit. That means that if you get a 76mm artillery piece federally registered as a DD, you need to put it on a pistol permit in NY to be legal.

That also means that rifles and shotguns are *not* firearms under NY law.

 

[Marine Cpl]

NY doesn't define pistol, ny defines "firearm" and they all require a permit, then it exempts rifles and shotguns. By NY definition, anything that isnt a rifle or shotgun is a firearm and needs to go on a pistol permit. That means that if you get a 76mm artillery piece federally registered as a DD, you need to put it on a pistol permit in NY to be legal.

That also means that rifles and shotguns are *not* firearms under NY law.

While what you are saying makes sense in theory, Penal Law 400 however says different.

We are issued licenses to carry pistols and revolvers concealed. It makes no mention of firearms.

We are back to square one.

 

[stuck in ny]

While what you are saying makes sense in theory, Penal Law 400 however says different.

We are issued licenses to carry pistols and revolvers concealed. It makes no mention of firearms.

We are back to square one.

NY doesn't define pistol, ny defines "firearm" and they all require a permit, then it exempts rifles and shotguns. By NY definition, anything that isnt a rifle or shotgun is a firearm and needs to go on a pistol permit. That means that if you get a 76mm artillery piece federally registered as a DD, you need to put it on a pistol permit in NY to be legal.

That also means that rifles and shotguns are *not* firearms under NY law.

Huh? PGO 12 gages with 18+ barrel and 26+ OAL don't require a PP, unless somethings changed. They are "other" by the fed. law.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

Huh? PGO 12 gauge with 18+ barrel and 26+ OAL don't require a PP, unless somethings changed. They are "other" by the fed. law.

see how this is fucked up....this and the rest of what we are talking about....

by the letter of the law they should be illegal.....

 

[pmcjuryny]

NY doesn't define pistol, ny defines "firearm" and they all require a permit, then it exempts rifles and shotguns. By NY definition, anything that isnt a rifle or shotgun is a firearm and needs to go on a pistol permit. That means that if you get a 76mm artillery piece federally registered as a DD, you need to put it on a pistol permit in NY to be legal.

That also means that rifles and shotguns are *not* firearms under NY law.

This is completely false. Nys defines "firearm", but that definition does not include shotguns or rifles, the definition is found in section 265.00 of the penal code. The definition includes pistols, short barreled shotguns, short barreled rifles, assault weapons as defined later in section 265.00, and shotguns and rifles less then 26" inches in overall length. The nys definition of "firearm" is very narrow when compared to either the common understanding of the term, or the definition under federal law.

People holding a nys pistol permit are exempt only from portions of the law regarding possesion of a firearm as it relates to pistols. You can not buy or build a short barreled rifle and simply add it to your pistol permit to be legal.

This getting really far off into the weeds, with people trying to mix state definitions with federal law and vice a versa, and just out and out false information being posted. Sorry to have taken it down this path, good luck with your build.

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[pmcjuryny]

see how this is fucked up....this and the rest of what we are talking about....

by the letter of the law they should be illegal.....

Why should they be illegal? They do not meet the nys definition of any banned gun that I am aware of, do you know of someplace that they would be banned?

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[Eddie Gunks]

Why should they be illegal? They do not meet the nys definition of any banned gun that I am aware of, do you know of someplace that they would be banned?

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based onNYS definition of a firearm. they are not technically a shotgun (fed definition. no definition in NYS)....they are an "other". i do not see where they fall into the NYS definition of shotgun.....shotguns are "designed to fire from the shoulder.....

BUT, lemme go read 265....yet again!

 

[Eddie Gunks]

yup. NYS really does not define a shotgun.....again, very vague.

IF they use the feds definition then a mossberg pistol grip 500 is an "other" (and that is how they are transferred...as an "other" NOT a shotgun.), as such according to the BS way NYS law is written it should be illegal because it is NOT exempted (as it is not really , by definition, a shotgun or rifle. shotguns and rifle are exempted firearms.....)

no?

 

[twax100]

Sorry to have taken it down this path, good luck with your build.

I'm taking it all in. This is the kind of discussion I was looking for. I want to enjoy as much of my 2a rights as I can here while avoiding state prison. The more you know the better. Thanks for your info.

 

[pmcjuryny]

yup. NYS really does not define a shotgun.....again, very vague.

Nys clearly defines a shotgun

From penal code 265.00

12. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade,
and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned
and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun
shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a
single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

Perhaps the interesting thing, is according to state law all those 12 gauge shotguns with rifled barrels are not really shotguns at all.

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[stuck in ny]

Nys clearly defines a shotgun

From penal code 265.00


Perhaps the interesting thing, is according to state law all those 12 gauge shotguns with rifled barrels are not really shotguns at all.

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So if the NFA were overturned at the fed. level, then we could have 16" barrel rifled not-shotguns with stocks in NY? Boy this is convoluted.

 

[pmcjuryny]

based onNYS definition of a firearm. they are not technically a shotgun (fed definition. no definition in NYS)....they are an "other". i do not see where they fall into the NYS definition of shotgun.....shotguns are "designed to fire from the shoulder.....

BUT, lemme go read 265....yet again!

yup. NYS really does not define a shotgun.....again, very vague.

IF they use the feds definition then a mossberg pistol grip 500 is an "other" (and that is how they are transferred...as an "other" NOT a shotgun.), as such according to the BS way NYS law is written it should be illegal because it is NOT exempted (as it is not really , by definition, a shotgun or rifle. shotguns and rifle are exempted firearms.....)

no?

No shotguns and rifles are not exempt.

According the the new York state definition of "firearm" only very specific things are "firearms", shotguns and rifles are not included in that definition. Shotguns and rifle do not need an exemption because they do not meet the legal definition of a firearm.

To be a firearm under nys law, the gun must meet on of the following criteria
(a) any pistol or revolver; or
(b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or
(c) a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or
(d)any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or
otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or
(e) an assault weapon.

If the gun in question does not meet one of those criteria, it is not a "firearm" per nys law. Interestingly shotgun, rifle, and assault weapon are defined later in the same section, but there is no definition of pistol to be found.

Given that, would you say a pgo shotgun, meets any of those criteria?

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[pmcjuryny]

So if the NFA were overturned at the fed. level, then we could have 16" barrel rifled not-shotguns with stocks in NY? Boy this is convoluted.

I don't even want to guess, even federal law defines a shotgun as having a smooth bore. I honestly do know where "shotguns" with rifled barrels would fall.

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[Eddie Gunks]

Nys clearly defines a shotgun

From penal code 265.00

12. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade,
and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned
and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun
shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a
single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

Perhaps the interesting thing, is according to state law all those 12 gauge shotguns with rifled barrels are not really shotguns at all.

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thanks for the NYS definition.

so, according to NYS a pistol grip mossberg 500 may or may not be a shotgun. (the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" is what is kinda fucking it up) is it a firearm? what now?

 

[Marine Cpl]

No shotguns and rifles are not exempt.

According the the new York state definition of "firearm" only very specific things are "firearms", shotguns and rifles are not included in that definition. Shotguns and rifle do not need an exemption because they do not meet the legal definition of a firearm.

To be a firearm under nys law, the gun must meet on of the following criteria
(a) any pistol or revolver; or
(b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or
(c) a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or
(d)any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or
otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or
(e) an assault weapon.

If the gun in question does not meet one of those criteria, it is not a "firearm" per nys law. Interestingly shotgun, rifle, and assault weapon are defined later in the same section, but there is no definition of pistol to be found.

Given that, would you say a pgo shotgun, meets any of those criteria?

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I think I see what you are saying.

So what you are saying is that rifles and shotguns in normal configurations with long barrels over 16 and 18 aren't firearms so you cannot be charged with possession of a firearm since they are not firearms.

Technically you should be able to buy them at Joe's Hardware but since the Feds consider them firearms, we need to pass a NICS check.

So the shotgun looking tool with no stock and the rifle looking tool with no stock who were both manufacturerd with no stock and are labeled as "other" are also not considered firearms and you cannot get charged with Criminal Possession of a Firearm.

 

[Marine Cpl]

thanks for the NYS definition.

so, according to NYS a pistol grip mossberg 500 is may or may not be a shotgun. is it a firearm? what now?

I think it's nothing according to NYS and you never be charged with Criminal Possession of a Firearm so you do not need an exemption.

 

[pmcjuryny]

I think I see what you are saying.

So what you are saying is that rifles and shotguns in normal configurations with long barrels over 16 and 18 aren't firearms so you cannot be charged with possession of a firearm since they are not firearms.

Technically you should be able to buy them at Joe's Hardware but since the Feds consider them firearms, we need to pass a NICS check.

So the shotgun looking tool with no stock and the rifle looking tool with no stock who were both manufacturerd with no stock and are labeled as "other" are also not considered firearms and you cannot get charged with Criminal Possession of a Firearm.

Correct, they do not meet the nys definition of "firearm" so they would not be subject to any nys law regarding "firearms"

Both are also labelled not a pistol under the federal definition if they have an overall length of more then 26".

That brings the really interesting question, if it isn't a rifle, isn't a shotgun, and according to the feds isn't a pistol, how could it be an assault weapon, regardless of features and or configuration.

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[pmcjuryny]

thanks for the NYS definition.

so, according to NYS a pistol grip mossberg 500 may or may not be a shotgun. (the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" is what is kinda fucking it up) is it a firearm? what now?

By federal law, it's a "firearm", but not according the nys.

New York doesn't specifically call out a catch all category, that any not specified gun would fall into, so it would seem that it is unregulated by nys.

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