AR Precision Rifle Project

meketrefe · Oct 3, 2016

Hi,
So you want an upper without a ported barrel nor gas block and tobbe able to cycle it manually like a straight pull bolt action?
The key for 223 is to pick a 223 chamber
For match and ar mags are giving 2.3 coal or even more if gated.
I would start with the distances and bullets you want to use and then decide on barrel and chamber based on that.
There are a few tips to make it the most accurate possible.
Mega and LAR have nice side charging receivers and bolts. Fulton too.

meketrefe · Oct 3, 2016

I am assuming you want to shoot well and be competitive.
Anything will get to 500 yards but you want something that bucks the wind therefore the best ballistics the 224 bore has to offer.
For 500 yards you have several options from 75gr to 82gr bergers. This means a twist of 1:8 to 1:7.5 would be ideal.
There are a number of 223R reamers all with similar body dimensions but different throat dimensions.
This means you can load longer bullet seated further out and get even better performance.
There are at least a dozen 223 Remington chamber reamers I know of. Some are very similar and others offer distinctive advantages.

But in the AR15 you are limited by the magazine length. Modern magazines like ASC, PRI, etc.. can give up to 2.3" COAL.
What some people that shoot competition do is to get gated magazines that a give a bit more. A gated mag is nothing
but a cut slot on the top of the magazine to allow the tips and bullets to borrow a few extra thousands.

A few companies sell match loads for longer 223R match chambers.

If you are only interested in the most popular factory loads then the wylde chamber seems like a good compromise
but I would have the barrel chambered to be headspaced to the bolt I am going to use. That will give extra accuracy assuring a tighter chamber vs. you buying a stock bolt from anyone.
Young manufacturing offer one fo the best side charging carriers and bolts I have seen.

So decide on the bullet first and then build everything to put that bullet where you want at the speed you want.

I suggest you look at the hornady 75gr hpbt as the starting point but also the 80gr amax, 77gr sierra TMK, SMK 77gr,
berger 77gr and 82gr hpbt.

We can find factory ammo loaded for all those bullets but you might want to take advantage of reloading too or
more exclusive ammo makers for competition.

Also consider the following:

High end match barrel with match chamber and matching bolt headspaced to it.
Truing the reciever.
Replace the collapsible stock with an adjustable stock (Ergonomics).
Bind the upper to the hand-guards or get a monolithic setup more expensive (not really needed).
Custom upgrade Charging handle to make it easier to operate. Also have a very low tension spring for easy
cycling. Don't even need a buffer weight although it doesn't hurt neither.
I am sure you are considering a good trigger, hand stop and other parts.

meketrefe · Oct 3, 2016

BTW if I was starting from scratch I would probably consider the 77gr TMK. I don't have much experience with that one but I am looking forward to test more.
Plus you have amazing Black hills and other ammo loaded with it. First I have to burn though various bulk packs of of SMKs and Amax that I already have.

meketrefe · Oct 3, 2016

Hey good luck. A good upper is not going to be cheap but in fact it can challenge Bolt action accuracy. The additional advantage is that they can be easily serviced (easier than a savage bolt action) and converted to semi auto should the need arise.
You have endless possibilities. Also look for barrels on sale already cut with matching bolt as you might save some moola.
Check out Lothar Walther LW50 polygonal barrels and also Krieger 5R.
The main thing is that you fit the rifle to you and to what you like. The main goal is that bullet strikes the target with confidence. The rest is just the means
to provide a delivery method to make that happen.
There is a thread I put on the dark side about how to build an accurate AR with some equipment, tips and tricks. I should copy it here.
I hope other members chimed in with their input and experiences.

carpediem · Oct 3, 2016

Also, a company called Intrepid Arms in Cobleskill NY makes bolt action ARs. I believe they also sell the uppers too. Intrepidarms@yahoo.com
Never had any dealings with them but did consider getting one for a while.

dsdmmat · Oct 3, 2016

I have built 3 bolt action uppers. Two of them I used white oak side charging uppers ( Mek suggested them) and one I milled the slot in a slic side upper. I prefer the fixed charging handle in the Bolt carrier it gives pretty good leverage to charge the gun. I also remove the gas rings from the bolt to make it easier to cycle the bolt.

I have used two chambered barrel blanks from green Mountian barrels one gave sub MOA the other is about 1 MOA the third barrel I used a 17 hornet barrel had it machined to accept an AR barrel extension and rechambered it to 17 Remington it is also a 1 MOA gun with factory loads, I have not played with it as far as reloading yet but that is coming this winter.

If you are really serious about a bolt action upper, use a barrel without a drilled gas port. You can get a barrel blank, machine it for a barrel extension and chamber it to headspace on your bolt.

Snappo · Oct 13, 2016

Chuck D said:
Is there a preferred side of the upper receiver to have the charging handle (left or right) ?

Which side is stronger, more accurate, or does it even matter ?

They make ambi ones that are works of art and maybe $75 on a bad day.

Snappo · Oct 13, 2016

Chuck D said:
I can't thank you enough for the info. Others I speak to simply reply with "get a bolt gun" which would be in my future plans BUT to build a decent AR rifle for inside 700 yards would make for an awesome project.

I owe you one...

The only way an AR has any value at 700 yards is if you build a Trebuchet and lob a few hundred of them that far all at once. That might hurt someone a little. A serious fart can throw off an AR round at 400 to the point you can't get on the paper. 700 is just mental masturbation.

Snappo · Oct 13, 2016

Here's what you need to turn your AR deadly at 700:

Snappo · Oct 13, 2016

Chuck D said:
Never ever shy away from a challenge.

In a parallel universe, Kim Kardashian just challenged me to eat her for 24 hours. Fuck I hate this universe..........

BDSKJCHRIS · Oct 13, 2016

Snappo said:
The only way an AR has any value at 700 yards is if you build a Trebuchet and lob a few hundred of them that far all at once. That might hurt someone a little. A serious fart can throw off an AR round at 400 to the point you can't get on the paper. 700 is just mental masturbation.

the sam-r and mk-12 spr seem to do the job just fine

m855 which is widely regarded as junk is 2-3MOA accurate and able to punch through 1/8" steel at 600 yards when fired from an m249 (18" barrel)

something tells me a 20" match grade heavy barrel with good 77gr handloads, decent glass, and most importantly: a proficient shooter, could be plenty accurate at 700 yards for point targets

Snappo · Oct 13, 2016

BDSKJCHRIS said:
the sam-r and mk-12 spr seem to do the job just fine

m855 which is widely regarded as junk is 2-3MOA accurate and able to punch through 1/8" steel at 600 yards when fired from an m249 (18" barrel)

something tells me a 20" match grade heavy barrel with good 77gr handloads, decent glass, and most importantly: a proficient shooter, could be plenty accurate at 700 yards for point targets

Whatever something told you that, don't listen to it. Max range on a match quality AR is about 400 yards. And you better hope for 0-3 MPH winds on that day. 3-6 and you won't be able to hit a 12x18 piece of paper. Now granted I don't hand load 223 yet (though I recently bought some IMR 8208 XBR and Hornady a-max 80 gr BT), but my AR gets fed Federal and Black Hills. Out at 400 the wind destroys groups. 700 is mental masturbation. Nobody short of Jesus is gonna get on the paper at 700. Probably not even at 500. And I own a 500 range (actually 600) so that comes from [almost daily] experience and not some story on some website. My match barrel is nickel boron, and my bolt is full-auto nickel boron and matched to the barrel. Here's my rig which I built this summer and my bushmaster target AR.

dsdmmat · Oct 13, 2016

Chuck D said:
Is there a preferred side of the upper receiver to have the charging handle (left or right) ?

Which side is stronger, more accurate, or does it even matter ?

I am left handed and prefer the charging handle on the right side. It allows me to use my weak hand to charge the rifle and my firing hand on the trigger.

dsdmmat · Oct 13, 2016

If I recall correctly the Colt HBARs had the big pin up front you would probably be better off building something from scratch. Rather than building a new upper and monkeying with a pin adapter.

The 6.5 creedmoor won't fit in a AR15 sized lower you would need to step into the AR10 size.

Are you only interested in staying with 5.56/223, Or sticking with the AR15 sized platform?
You can go with the 6.5 Grendal or the 6.8 SPC and have good performance out to 800 yards
But they might blow your 1000 buck budget with glass.
JSE 20" WILSON ARMS 6.5 GRENDEL 1X8 SS FLUTED ODIN KEYMOD VLTOR FH

dsdmmat · Oct 13, 2016

Chuck D said:
All I know is that the pivot pin is held in with a flat head screw. It appears that measurement is in order. The division I'd like to shoot is .223 mandated so yes Id need to use .223

I would use a barrel chambered in 223 Wylde that will give you enough throat and freebore area for VLD bullets. A twist of 1-7 or 1-8 will be better for the long heavy bullets you will be using to go out to 700 yards. You could go crazy and get a 1-6 twist if you are so inclined.

I sold my HBAR a long time ago otherwise I would check it out.

dsdmmat · Oct 13, 2016

At 700 yards 1moa is 7 inches. There are a few videos of people doing it with bolt guns. A 1 MOA AR should have no issues doing it.

Eddie Gunks · Oct 13, 2016

Chuck D said:
All I know is that the pivot pin is held in with a flat head screw. It appears that measurement is in order. The division I'd like to shoot is .223 mandated so yes Id need to use .223

I have some bushings when you need them. (When u change the upper)

Where is this match? I woild like to ahoit it. Pleaee pm me a link

Thx

dsdmmat · Oct 13, 2016

1000 yard shot.

meketrefe · Oct 13, 2016

Two examples of 223 factory ammo making it supersonic to 1000 yards whether shot
from a 22" bolt action Remington or a 16" AR15 carbine...

223 Remington 80gr. HPBT Match 20rds.

Shot From 22" bolt action...

Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.415 Velocity (ft/s) 2825 Weight (grains) 80
Maximum Range (yds) 1000 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 0 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 555
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
Ballistics Results
RANGE(YARDS) VELOCITY(FPS) ENERGY(FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY(IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT(IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Muzzle 2825 1418 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2610 1210 1.8 -1.7 -0.5 0 0 0
200 2406 1028 0 0 0 0 0 0
300 2210 868 -7.8 2.5 0.7 0 0 0
400 2024 727 -22.8 5.4 1.6 0 0 0
500 1847 606 -46.3 8.8 2.6 0 0 0
600 1681 502 -80 12.7 3.7 0 0 0
700 1528 415 -126 17.2 5 0 0 0
800 1389 343 -187 22.3 6.5 0 0 0
900 1267 285 -266 28.2 8.2 0 0 0
1000 1166 241 -366.9 35 10.2 0 0 0

.
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.
.

Black Hills 223R 77gr TMK
Shot From a 16" AR 15 ....

New Rifle | Product Categories | Black Hills Ammunition

Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.42 Velocity (ft/s) 2775 Weight (grains) 77
Maximum Range (yds) 1000 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 0 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 555
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
Ballistics Results
RANGE(YARDS) VELOCITY(FPS) ENERGY(FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY(IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT(IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Muzzle 2775 1317 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2565 1125 1.9 -1.8 -0.5 0 0 0
200 2365 956 0 0 0 0 0 0
300 2173 808 -8.1 2.6 0.8 0 0 0
400 1991 678 -23.6 5.6 1.6 0 0 0
500 1818 565 -47.9 9.2 2.7 0 0 0
600 1656 469 -82.8 13.2 3.8 0 0 0
700 1507 388 -130.4 17.8 5.2 0 0 0
800 1372 322 -193.3 23.1 6.7 0 0 0
900 1254 269 -274.7 29.1 8.5 0 0 0
1000 1156 228 -378.4 36.1 10.5 0 0 0

Snappo · Oct 13, 2016

Chuck D said:
Here's why I'm asking.

Precision Rifle Series just announced this week the creation of a Gas Gun series with 2 classes, Tactical Heavy (Gas guns not .223.5.56) and Tactical Light (Gas Guns .223/5.56 only). Max target distance 800 yds.

Everyone in Tactical Light will be in the same boat with the wind SO caliber choice isn't a factor.

I just so happen to have a 90's vintage Colt Delta Match HBAR AR at home that is like brand new and would make for a decent "entry level" rifle. All I would need to do is change the upper receiver to rid myself of the A2 rear sight and handle, add a free floating handguard and a low mount gas block and I can go play.

I'm smart enough to know that 6.5 Creedmoor in a decent bolt gun is todays winning combination. I'm also smart enough to know that my combo with the right ammo will allow me to compete and hit more than a few targets while learning the game.

...all for about 1000.00 less than buying a new rifle, which by the way gives me a few extra centavos for decent glass.

800 though. I went with a 18" Wylde 1:7 and nickel boron FA bolt. With no wind at all I am doing solid groups at 400, but minor crosswinds at 500 and 600 kills even the 77 grain Black Hills Match. 800 is about the outer range of my Remington 700 Police with 168 gr Lake City LR ammo, but the AR's really are as useless as tits on a bull beyond 400.

Snappo · Oct 13, 2016

meketrefe said:
Two examples of 223 factory ammo making it supersonic to 1000 yards whether shot
from a 22" bolt action Remington or a 16" AR15 carbine...

Drop ain't the problem. Crosswinds takes it places you don't wanna go.

Snappo · Oct 13, 2016

dsdmmat said:
At 700 yards 1moa is 7 inches. There are a few videos of people doing it with bolt guns. A 1 MOA AR should have no issues doing it.

Mathematically it's 7.33" but yeah. I can buy into being within a foot of expected impact for elevation at 700, but I cannot buy into windage being within a foot at 700 for a 77gr projectile. Granted every now and then some Annie Oakley comes along; but just from a hardware perspective I would think you need absolute 0 wind and a 0.25 MOA rifle to start hitting decent groups out at 700 to 1,000. I actually own a 0.25 MOA AR rifle (the Bushmaster is a quarter MOA). I can do 4" groups at 400 on a 0-3 mph mostly windless day. But by 600 it's more like a eight inches to a foot from expected point of impact. I haven't cut 700 and 800 through my woods yet, but I won't even try the AR's at that distance. I'm thinking at 700 the best that weapon can do is a foot windage from point of target. I'm obviously not Annie Oakley; but I just don't think those videos are realistic. More like a fluke. For all we know he shot 1,000 rounds and filmed 5 hits; and that seems realistic.

AR Precision Rifle Project

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