AR Precision Rifle Project

[meketrefe]

Drop ain't the problem. Crosswinds takes it places you don't wanna go.

Well that depends what you compare it to.

But lets say if we use a top of the line bullets 80gr VLD for the 223 and 175gr HPBT Army sniper rounds in 308 winchester
and compare them with a 90 degree 10mph full value wind there is a drift at 1000 yards of 2.7mils for the 308 and 2.8mils for the 223
so I would say that is minimum considering that the 223 also shoots flatter than the 308. So one could use these bullets indistinctly
to hit paper and virtually achieve the same results.
We know the 308 is not the ideal 1,000 yards round but it has been used this way and for training purposes the 223 can cover the
training role with a fraction of the budget of the 308w. Similar trajectories and virtually same drift. (see below).


Ballistics Results - 308W 175gr hpbt

Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.505 Velocity (ft/s) 2600 Weight (grains) 75
Maximum Range (yds) 1000 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 100
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 555
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
RANGE(YARDS) VELOCITY(FPS) ENERGY(FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY(IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT(IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Muzzle 2600 1126 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2431 984 0 0 0 0.7 0.7 0.2
200 2269 857 -4.4 2.1 0.6 2.9 1.4 0.4
300 2113 743 -15.6 5 1.4 6.7 2.1 0.6
400 1963 642 -34.5 8.2 2.4 12.3 2.9 0.9
500 1820 552 -62.5 11.9 3.5 20 3.8 1.1
600 1685 473 -101.1 16.1 4.7 29.8 4.7 1.4
700 1558 404 -151.9 20.7 6 42.1 5.7 1.7
800 1440 345 -217 25.9 7.5 57.1 6.8 2
900 1333 296 -299 31.7 9.2 74.9 8 2.3
1000 1238 255 -400.6 38.2 11.1 95.8 9.1 2.7


Ballistics Results - 223R - 80gr VLD

Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.455 Velocity (ft/s) 2800 Weight (grains) 80
Maximum Range (yds) 1000 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 100
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 555
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78

RANGE(YARDS) VELOCITY(FPS) ENERGY(FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY(IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT(IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Muzzle 2800 1393 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2605 1205 0 0 0 0.7 0.7 0.2
200 2418 1039 -3.6 1.7 0.5 2.9 1.4 0.4
300 2239 890 -13.2 4.2 1.2 6.8 2.2 0.6
400 2067 759 -29.8 7.1 2.1 12.4 3 0.9
500 1904 644 -54.5 10.4 3 20.2 3.9 1.1
600 1749 543 -88.8 14.1 4.1 30.3 4.8 1.4
700 1604 457 -134.6 18.4 5.3 43 5.9 1.7
800 1469 384 -193.9 23.1 6.7 58.5 7 2
900 1348 323 -269.3 28.6 8.3 77.2 8.2 2.4
1000 1242 274 -363.9 34.7 10.1 99.2 9.5 2.8

 

[BDSKJCHRIS]

Whatever something told you that, don't listen to it. Max range on a match quality AR is about 400 yards. And you better hope for 0-3 MPH winds on that day. 3-6 and you won't be able to hit a 12x18 piece of paper. Now granted I don't hand load 223 yet (though I recently bought some IMR 8208 XBR and Hornady a-max 80 gr BT), but my AR gets fed Federal and Black Hills. Out at 400 the wind destroys groups. 700 is mental masturbation. Nobody short of Jesus is gonna get on the paper at 700. Probably not even at 500. And I own a 500 range (actually 600) so that comes from [almost daily] experience and not some story on some website. My match barrel is nickel boron, and my bolt is full-auto nickel boron and matched to the barrel. Here's my rig which I built this summer and my bushmaster target AR.

marines qualify at 500 yards with rack grade, non free floated rifles with 4x RCOs and bulk m855 or m193 ammo, (used to be iron sights). sounds like you need to practice calling wind.

and what part of my reply should i "not listen to"

m855 is junk? m855 is 2-3 moa ammo? one of the only design specs for m855 was penetrating 1/8" of mild steel at 600 yards when fired from an 18" m249 barrel? the sam-r and mk-12 spr have been making accurate hits in combat past 600-700 yards for 10+ years now?

am i supposed to ignore all of the facts i know to be true because someone on the internet can't hit paper at 400 yards?

 

[Snappo]

marines qualify at 500 yards with rack grade, non free floated rifles with 4x RCOs and bulk m855 or m193 ammo, (used to be iron sights). sounds like you need to practice calling wind.

and what part of my reply should i "not listen to"

m855 is junk? m855 is 2-3 moa ammo? one of the only design specs for m855 was penetrating 1/8" of mild steel at 600 yards when fired from an 18" m249 barrel? the sam-r and mk-12 spr have been making accurate hits in combat past 600-700 yards for 10+ years now?

am i supposed to ignore all of the facts i know to be true because someone on the internet can't hit paper at 400 yards?

You are "mostly" correct. My son is USMC and in fact is up visiting this week on leave. In BASIC at Parris Island they shot M16A4's open iron at 500, 300 and 100 but at 500 they used human size targets (6 feet tall by 2 feet wide). That's way larger than the 12" by 16" paper we buy at Gander and Herb Philippsons. And if you are shooting against 6 feet by 2 feet target at 500, you need to multiply that by 40% for 700, and double it for 1,000. BTW - a human size target at 700 is visually like the size of a spec of sand (if you are 20-20 and can see it at all).

But if you can get onto paper at 700; then good luck with that! I can't do it with my 2 AR's, but maybe your weapons can. When I go to 600 I have to use a 700P, and I only open-iron at 300 and 400 with my M1 Garand. Never tried open-iron at 500 or 700 and not sure I could.

 

[Snappo]

Well that depends what you compare it to.

But lets say if we use a top of the line bullets 80gr VLD for the 223 and 175gr HPBT Army sniper rounds in 308 winchester
and compare them with a 90 degree 10mph full value wind there is a drift at 1000 yards of 2.7mils for the 308 and 2.8mils for the 223
so I would say that is minimum considering that the 223 also shoots flatter than the 308. So one could use these bullets indistinctly
to hit paper and virtually achieve the same results.
We know the 308 is not the ideal 1,000 yards round but it has been used this way and for training purposes the 223 can cover the
training role with a fraction of the budget of the 308w. Similar trajectories and virtually same drift. (see below).


Ballistics Results - 308W 175gr hpbt

Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.505 Velocity (ft/s) 2600 Weight (grains) 75
Maximum Range (yds) 1000 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 100
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 555
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
RANGE(YARDS) VELOCITY(FPS) ENERGY(FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY(IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT(IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Muzzle 2600 1126 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2431 984 0 0 0 0.7 0.7 0.2
200 2269 857 -4.4 2.1 0.6 2.9 1.4 0.4
300 2113 743 -15.6 5 1.4 6.7 2.1 0.6
400 1963 642 -34.5 8.2 2.4 12.3 2.9 0.9
500 1820 552 -62.5 11.9 3.5 20 3.8 1.1
600 1685 473 -101.1 16.1 4.7 29.8 4.7 1.4
700 1558 404 -151.9 20.7 6 42.1 5.7 1.7
800 1440 345 -217 25.9 7.5 57.1 6.8 2
900 1333 296 -299 31.7 9.2 74.9 8 2.3
1000 1238 255 -400.6 38.2 11.1 95.8 9.1 2.7


Ballistics Results - 223R - 80gr VLD

Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.455 Velocity (ft/s) 2800 Weight (grains) 80
Maximum Range (yds) 1000 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 100
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 555
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78

RANGE(YARDS) VELOCITY(FPS) ENERGY(FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY(IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT(IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Muzzle 2800 1393 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2605 1205 0 0 0 0.7 0.7 0.2
200 2418 1039 -3.6 1.7 0.5 2.9 1.4 0.4
300 2239 890 -13.2 4.2 1.2 6.8 2.2 0.6
400 2067 759 -29.8 7.1 2.1 12.4 3 0.9
500 1904 644 -54.5 10.4 3 20.2 3.9 1.1
600 1749 543 -88.8 14.1 4.1 30.3 4.8 1.4
700 1604 457 -134.6 18.4 5.3 43 5.9 1.7
800 1469 384 -193.9 23.1 6.7 58.5 7 2
900 1348 323 -269.3 28.6 8.3 77.2 8.2 2.4
1000 1242 274 -363.9 34.7 10.1 99.2 9.5 2.8

I shoot Federal 308 premium gold medal match, and for 223 I shoot the 77gr Black Hills blue box. Not sure what difference that makes to what you loaded; and my software is Shooter. But in your software you loaded a fixed 90 degree cross at 10 mph. I never saw wind go from 0 to 1000 with the exact same wind speed and angle for the entire range of the round. You estimate the wind at each 100 all the way out and do addition/subtraction.

No disrespect but some posts are coming with data that clearly indicates the posters have not been shooting at distance. I shoot every nice day, and some not so nice days. And not at someone elses's range - my range is as nice or nicer than any range people pay to go to once a month. And the accuracy people are talking about I just don't experience. And I feel that it's not due to human error. My weapons mount in a benchrest, I have wind testing at every 100 yards. If you look at the picture, each target is 4x4's in the ground with those Grainger targets clipped to rebar. You can see at 400 (the crest of the hill) the 12"x16" paper is a little white spec the size of a grain of sand.

 

[meketrefe]

Black hills 77gr SMK blue box is good ammo but not the best choice for this kind of shooting.
You might want to try the black hills 77gr TMK at a minimum.

Black Hills 5.56mm NATO Ammo 77 Grain Tipped MatchKing

Use Berger 80gr VLD, 80gr amax or 77gr TMK and you will get comparable trajectories to the above.
Obviously your choices will be limited by the barrel choice, type of 223R chamber you choose and the limit imposed by your magazine.
A good knowledge base to reload 223R to compete can be found here but you might already know this.
223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide

I compared the 223 with the 308 175g and not a 7mm SAUM. Try the above bullets and some other ammo and loads
and you will see the difference. Shooter or any other ballistics software will tell you the same.
223R might not be someones first choice for long range but as of today with the modern bullets and ammunition is a good way to get
comparable reach and drift to MK316 Long Range service ammunition but with a more modest budget.
The 80gr amax and tmk value packs continue to be some of the best value around and that is why the 223R and AI chambers
get so many acceptance.
Of course the 308 can also be improved with TMK, Amax and Berger VLD but that is not the point here.

I have been doing this for a long time to know how the limitation of the 223 and how to stretch it to do all it can do.
And you are right, many posters have not been shooting at a distance. It is not easy to find the place to shoot long range upstate so
people have to drive long distances. Not everyone is lucky to own a farm or range to be able to shoot long range.

Nice shooting setup btw.

 

[Snappo]

Black hills 77gr SMK blue box is good ammo but not the best choice for this kind of shooting.
You might want to try the black hills 77gr TMK at a minimum.

Black Hills 5.56mm NATO Ammo 77 Grain Tipped MatchKing

Use Berger 80gr VLD, 80gr amax or 77gr TMK and you will get comparable trajectories to the above.
Obviously your choices will be limited by the barrel choice, type of 223R chamber you choose and the limit imposed by your magazine.
A good knowledge base to reload 223R to compete can be found here but you might already know this.
223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide

I compared the 223 with the 308 175g and not a 7mm SAUM. Try the above bullets and some other ammo and loads
and you will see the difference. Shooter or any other ballistics software will tell you the same.
223R might not be someones first choice for long range but as of today with the modern bullets and ammunition is a good way to get
comparable reach and drift to MK316 Long Range service ammunition but with a more modest budget.
The 80gr amax and tmk value packs continue to be some of the best value around and that is why the 223R and AI chambers
get so many acceptance.
Of course the 308 can also be improved with TMK, Amax and Berger VLD but that is not the point here.

I have been doing this for a long time to know how the limitation of the 223 and how to stretch it to do all it can do.
And you are right, many posters have not been shooting at a distance. It is not easy to find the place to shoot long range upstate so
people have to drive long distances. Not everyone is lucky to own a farm or range to be able to shoot long range.

Nice shooting setup btw.

I recently bought 5 lbs of IMR 8208 XBR Smokeless Powder and 5 of the 500 bullet boxes of Hornady A-Max 80 Grain Boat Tail. We shall see.

Range is a labor of love. Last month in went with Thompson Weather Beater (thanks to a Wagner power sprayer I got with Delta miles) even though I used pressure treated, and just put in astroturf so prone is more comfy. Cut new trees last month for my 500 so I could get high enough to see from the second floor (but now I need to buy new AR500 plates), cut the trees out of the way for 600, and am pondering making a bridge that my Gator and ATV's can drive across so I can do 700 and 800 this fall or next spring (I have to cross my creek to get that far out). I'm using the wood in my new Sawmill, so it's a harder process to cut through my woods now. Now I schlep the wood back to my cow barn and turn it into planks for my other hobby - my woodshop.

I have had a few of the forum members up to my range. Most folks seem to be only comfortable at 100 and consider 200 to be distance. To me, 200 and 300 are spots to zero, and then I try for good groups at 300 through 500. For me 100 is lever action. People talk about 700 and beyond; but they are armchair quarterbacks. I bet my range is longer than most public ranges, and I highly doubt other people shoot every day like I do.