Army announces new cartridge

Shadow2

Shadow2

6.5 Creedmoor
Messages
2,390
Reaction score
2,065
Location
Westchester
Yes reported to be telescoped ... Cased Telescoped Weapons & Ammunition | Textron Systems.
Army minds haven't impressed me lately with their choices so I'm skeptical ...

Marines seem to be a bit more practical with decisions.

Podmonkey said:
Because we can't send our soldiers out to battle with some garage spawned wildcat round, that's why. Supposedly the round under devolpment is outside the norm, it is reported to be a telescoped, polymer case. And they will be testing to see if it works well in the heat of the desert, the chill of the arctic, the wet of a monsoon, ect. Our military encounters conditions far beyond that of the bench.
Click to expand...
 
Marine Cpl

Marine Cpl

.577 Tyrannosaur.
Messages
22,054
Reaction score
20,648
Location
Orange County
Podmonkey said:
No, you are right. I am lamenting it's not replacing both. Seems like a wasted effort to me otherwise.
Click to expand...
I agree. It will do nothing extra that the right 5.56 bullet cannot do. Replacing the 5.56 with the 6.8 is like dumping your 9mm for a .40 S&W. The difference is so negligible that it really isn't worth it.
 
Podmonkey

Podmonkey

.577 Tyrannosaur.
U.S. Military
Messages
20,820
Reaction score
28,728
Location
Cambria co. PA
96coal449 said:
I always thought it was supposed to replace the 5.56 and supplement the .308.
It's just not .30cal.
Click to expand...
For a brief moment in history the Marines fielded a heavy 6mm cartridge in the Lee Navy.
They found it sufficiently effective and it served capably as both a rifle and machine gun cartridge. But neither the metallurgy nor powder chemistry was really at where it needed to be to support such a high velocity small bore cartridge at the time, the late 19th century.
The time to revive the concept is now.
I even think that in terms of ballistics the old Lee Navy cartridge is right about where we should be for an all purpose cartridge, just give it a slippery spitzer bullet that retains velocity well so it can be driven at more moderate velocities to keep the recoil impulse low enough for use in light carbines while still having the range needed for machinegun and dmr use. Moderate velocity will require less power and allows for a compact case which means more ammo can be carried, size and weight considerations are critical for modern soldiers now, with the absurd ammount of gear they have to carry.
 
96coal449

96coal449

.308 Win
Messages
4,331
Reaction score
4,914
Location
Where the hills have eyes
Good point Pod. I do have a question. How do you feel about the penetration abilities of the 6mm against hard barriers?
Compared to the .30 that is. I'm just curious.
 
Podmonkey

Podmonkey

.577 Tyrannosaur.
U.S. Military
Messages
20,820
Reaction score
28,728
Location
Cambria co. PA
96coal449 said:
Good point Pod. I do have a question. How do you feel about the penetration abilities of the 6mm against hard barriers?
Compared to the .30 that is. I'm just curious.
Click to expand...
The less frontal area a projectile has for a given mass and velocity the more it can punch through.
Take two bullets, both 120gr at 2,600fps, one 7.62 and the other 6mm. Which do you think will have better penetration?
 
96coal449

96coal449

.308 Win
Messages
4,331
Reaction score
4,914
Location
Where the hills have eyes
Podmonkey said:
The less frontal area a projectile has for a given mass and velocity the more it can punch through.
Take two bullets, both 120gr at 2,600fps, one 7.62 and the other 6mm. Which do you think will have better penetration?
Click to expand...
Agreed. But how much inventory does the military have of 120gr .30? Doesn't it start at 150gr projectiles? A heavier bullet will help knock down barriers, when you want to do more then penetrate .... yes .... no? Again just asking. I know .30 cal has been very popular in hunting for over a century. They perform well in the woods and thru brush. I believe this is where the military first looked. At the hunters. To see what killed what and well.
 
Marine Cpl

Marine Cpl

.577 Tyrannosaur.
Messages
22,054
Reaction score
20,648
Location
Orange County
Heavier bullets that go slower penetrate less than lighter bullets that go faster on hard targets. (Steel, aluminum, ect.)

Heavier bullets penetrate more than slower bullets that go faster on soft targets. (Fat, skin, muscle, ect.)

Bullets of the same weight and speed but with different frontal diameters penetrate differently. The skinnier one will penetrate more since it has less material to displace.
 
Podmonkey

Podmonkey

.577 Tyrannosaur.
U.S. Military
Messages
20,820
Reaction score
28,728
Location
Cambria co. PA
96coal449 said:
Agreed. But how much inventory does the military have of 120gr .30? Doesn't it start at 150gr projectiles? A heavier bullet will help knock down barriers, when you want to do more then penetrate .... yes .... no? Again just asking. I know .30 cal has been very popular in hunting for over a century. They perform well in the woods and thru brush. I believe this is where the military first looked. At the hunters. To see what killed what and well.
Click to expand...
Well, the new M80A1 ball round is 130gr. It is the same bullet as the 62gr M855A1 just scaled up to 7.62x51 caliber. Its supposed to be exceptionally effective.
 
Podmonkey

Podmonkey

.577 Tyrannosaur.
U.S. Military
Messages
20,820
Reaction score
28,728
Location
Cambria co. PA
Robin said:
Uh Uh.
Robin
Click to expand...
.243 just isn't quite enough for you?
It's not about the diameter. It's about cramming as much mass behind as small a frontal area as practical. And sacrificing as much velocity as possible while still meeting ballistics goals.

Or in the case of the Army Brass' thought process:
"5.56 bad, 7.62 too much. What caliber now?
Me remember 6.8 SPC. 6.8 good. Me not want think too much."
 
Robin

Robin

.475 A&M Magnum
Messages
18,652
Reaction score
39,741
Location
Livingston County
No, the .243 is not enough. There is always a line in the sand, a point at which compromise is no longer possible. 250-3000 would have been a winner from the get go. Maybe not today but when the .223 came out it would have been. with new powder and cartridge technology .250 is as far as I would go, and the .270 is even better.
Robin
 
Podmonkey

Podmonkey

.577 Tyrannosaur.
U.S. Military
Messages
20,820
Reaction score
28,728
Location
Cambria co. PA
Robin said:
No, the .243 is not enough. There is always a line in the sand, a point at which compromise is no longer possible. 250-3000 would have been a winner from the get go. Maybe not today but when the .223 came out it would have been. with new powder and cartridge technology .250 is as far as I would go, and the .270 is even better.
Robin
Click to expand...
I disagree. The Marines liked the 6mm Lee Navy.
The .270 is way too powerful for use in something like an M4 carbine. If we are to replace the 7.62x51 and 5.56x45 with a single cartridge then we need something that is both controllable in full auto from light carbines but also has good range for use in machine guns and marksman rifles. I think a heavy 6mm can achieve these two disparate goals and the Lee Navy is already the proof of concept.
 
Podmonkey

Podmonkey

.577 Tyrannosaur.
U.S. Military
Messages
20,820
Reaction score
28,728
Location
Cambria co. PA
96coal449 said:
@Podmonkey if your doing well with your new job and have some spare coin to play with ..... build a rifle and share. :)
I'd love to see something different, and how it performs.
Click to expand...
I don't roll my own so I stick to the established calibers. Next guns that are on deck are a Wilson Combat Brigadier Tactical (Custom M92)
And some kind of 5.56 "pistol". I have belatedly found a role for such a gun, one I need filled ASAP.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top