Army Awards NGWS to Sig.

[Xae289]

Exciting stuff. I'm very interested in the cartridge and seeing if this sparks a new advancement in cartridge and firearm design. The .277 Sig Fury is an awesome round. Reloadable brass with a steel case head to handle all that pressure. @Podmonkey , you said they reinvented the 7mm-08 – sort of. It's doing out of a 16" barrel what the 7mm-08 can do out of a 24" barrel. Give it a 24" barrel and it's matching the .270 Winchester in a much smaller, short-action cartridge. That should mean reasonable recoil, very flat trajectories, and solid lethality downrange.

 

[Podmonkey]

Exciting stuff. I'm very interested in the cartridge and seeing if this sparks a new advancement in cartridge and firearm design. The .277 Sig Fury is an awesome round. Reloadable brass with a steel case head to handle all that pressure. @Podmonkey , you said they reinvented the 7mm-08 – sort of. It's doing out of a 16" barrel what the 7mm-08 can do out of a 24" barrel. Give it a 24" barrel and it's matching the .270 Winchester in a much smaller, short-action cartridge. That should mean reasonable recoil, very flat trajectories, and solid lethality downrange.

Either way, recoil energy is at 7 62x51 levels. The weapon weight is at 7.62x51 machine gun levels. Nothing is gained with this cartridge. A moderate improvement in long range ballistics is unimportant. New weapon systems need to focus on low weight, high volume of fire.
This new round is in .30 cal territory, it's to big, too powerful. The focus should be on 5.56x45 form factor, recoil, weight while addressing its deficiencies at range. We are out Afghanistan now, we will not forever be fighting in mountains and deserts. We had a cartilage program that would have met our small arms needs all around with tge 6mm SAW. 6mm is the future. Telescoped polymer cased cartridges are the future. Polymer matrix bullets are the future.
The 6.8 is a step backwards. It makes no sense to adopt a new round that all it does is replace the 7.62x51. This will become an abortive project.

 

[Uzi]

Oh I want a real deal MP7, but fuckin’ HK is a bunch of turds and make it difficult. Not saying it’s impossible. I might know someone with an HK UMP. lol

Which is annoying cause I want an MP7! I’d also take an MP5 as well.

Everybody wants an MP7.

The MP5-K which has been around forever, is in my opinion, still a superior pdw and overall sub machine gun platform than the UMP.
The cyclic rate on UMP's are a bit too slow for the overall weight of the firearm I think. They are stupid light. It's one thing if you have some forward weight to compensate, but they simply don't. It's just more difficult to mitigate its muzzle rise during bursts with 40/45 calibers. I can put way tighter groups on target with an old school suppressed mac 10 in 45acp that shoots several hundred rounds per minute faster, and is made from bent sheet metal with the shittiest of iron sights. Not to mention FAR more compact with the suppressor off and significantly cheaper.

The MP7 is a very cool gun. I have not had the opportunity to use one yet in any capacity, but have always had great interest. The cartridge is enticing, but a civilian version doesn't make as much sense to me. Would I still buy one? of course I would. Thing is, you can already achieve arguably a better semi auto 5.7 chassis pdw package right now. I feel like the MP7 could be even smaller with retaining the same extended overall length. The rearward charging handle like a b&t MP9 doesn't excite me either. Shouldn't have to pull the weapon away from the sight picture since it's defintley going to have an optic mounted. This is why the MP5-k I believe is under appreciated.

 

[Will556]

Everybody wants an MP7.

The MP5-K which has been around forever, is in my opinion, still a superior pdw and overall sub machine gun platform than the UMP.
The cyclic rate on UMP's are a bit too slow for the overall weight of the firearm I think. They are stupid light. It's one thing if you have some forward weight to compensate, but they simply don't. It's just more difficult to mitigate its muzzle rise during bursts with 40/45 calibers. I can put way tighter groups on target with an old school suppressed mac 10 in 45acp that shoots several hundred rounds per minute faster, and is made from bent sheet metal with the shittiest of iron sights. Not to mention FAR more compact with the suppressor off and significantly cheaper.

The MP7 is a very cool gun. I have not had the opportunity to use one yet in any capacity, but have always had great interest. The cartridge is enticing, but a civilian version doesn't make as much sense to me. Would I still buy one? of course I would. Thing is, you can already achieve arguably a better semi auto 5.7 chassis pdw package right now. I feel like the MP7 could be even smaller with retaining the same extended overall length. The rearward charging handle like a b&t MP9 doesn't excite me either. Shouldn't have to pull the weapon away from the sight picture since it's defintley going to have an optic mounted. This is why the MP5-k I believe is under appreciated.

I’m not saying any of what you said isn’t true, but I’m also not saying no to owning any of them. lol

 

[Podmonkey]

Everybody wants an MP7.

The MP5-K which has been around forever, is in my opinion, still a superior pdw and overall sub machine gun platform than the UMP.
The cyclic rate on UMP's are a bit too slow for the overall weight of the firearm I think. They are stupid light. It's one thing if you have some forward weight to compensate, but they simply don't. It's just more difficult to mitigate its muzzle rise during bursts with 40/45 calibers. I can put way tighter groups on target with an old school suppressed mac 10 in 45acp that shoots several hundred rounds per minute faster, and is made from bent sheet metal with the shittiest of iron sights. Not to mention FAR more compact with the suppressor off and significantly cheaper.

The MP7 is a very cool gun. I have not had the opportunity to use one yet in any capacity, but have always had great interest. The cartridge is enticing, but a [ICODE][ICODE][/ICODE][/ICODE]civilian version doesn't make as much sense to me. Would I still buy one? of course I would. Thing is, you can already achieve arguably a better semi auto 5.7 chassis pdw package right now. I feel like the MP7 could be even smaller with retaining the same extended overall length. The rearward charging handle like a b&t MP9 doesn't excite me either. Shouldn't have to pull the weapon away from the sight picture since it's defintley going to have an optic mounted. This is why the MP5-k I believe is under appreciated.

MP7 ams smallerz. Also while I don't think the 4.6x30 is a great round I do think that this type of small caliber, high velocity round is perhaps better suited to the PDW role due to the greater range and penetration over a 9mm. Up close and personal for tge door kicker type perhaps 9mm is better but for the hapless vehicle borne troop (or trucker that finds himself desperately fending off a surprise attack from outside bad breath distance I'm thinking the flatter trajectory and generally higher magazine capacity could be useful. If you were to force me back into a HEMTT and give me a choice of firearm to be issued I would pick something similar to an MP7 in 7.5 Fuck Bruno. Or if 7.5 FK is to hot for a small automatic weapon 7.62x25 Tokarev. That's a good PDW round, should have stuck around longer.

 

[Xae289]

Either way, recoil energy is at 7 62x51 levels. The weapon weight is at 7.62x51 machine gun levels. Nothing is gained with this cartridge. A moderate improvement in long range ballistics is unimportant. New weapon systems need to focus on low weight, high volume of fire.
This new round is in .30 cal territory, it's to big, too powerful. The focus should be on 5.56x45 form factor, recoil, weight while addressing its deficiencies at range. We are out Afghanistan now, we will not forever be fighting in mountains and deserts. We had a cartilage program that would have met our small arms needs all around with tge 6mm SAW. 6mm is the future. Telescoped polymer cased cartridges are the future. Polymer matrix bullets are the future.
The 6.8 is a step backwards. It makes no sense to adopt a new round that all it does is replace the 7.62x51. This will become an abortive project.

I can agree with you as far as the standard infantry rifle goes. I don't think the .277 is a good cartridge for general issue and agree that something like the 6mm ARC would be a better choice for that use. If this makes it to the Army's arsenal, I doubt it'll be issued to all that many units.

As far as a light machinegun goes, they claim to have a weapon lighter than the M249, reduced recoil, shooting a round as powerful as the 7.62 NATO, but with a flatter trajectory. I consider that a big win if it's all true.

 

[Podmonkey]

I can agree with you as far as the standard infantry rifle goes. I don't think the .277 is a good cartridge for general issue and agree that something like the 6mm ARC would be a better choice for that use. If this makes it to the Army's arsenal, I doubt it'll be issued to all that many units.

As far as a light machinegun goes, they claim to have a weapon lighter than the M249, reduced recoil, shooting a round as powerful as the 7.62 NATO, but with a flatter trajectory. I consider that a big win if it's all true.

Knight's Armament developed a good lightweight machine gun both in 5.56 and 7.62. Adopt a version of that in 6mm whatever caliber and call it good. Or do nothing until a significant improvement in ammo tech comes along to make the expense worthwhile.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Knight's Armament developed a good lightweight machine gun both in 5.56 and 7.62. Adopt a version of that in 6mm whatever caliber and call it good. Or do nothing until a significant improvement in ammo tech comes along to make the expense worthwhile.

I think this contract will be more for the advancing of the ammo tech in the end

 

[Saltwater60]

I think this contract will be more for the advancing of the ammo tech in the end

I got the impression that is what it was all about from the beginning so I’m sure you’re right on point here.

 

[Saltwater60]

IMO it’s nice to see someone get the contract that has strong civilian market ties and hopefully it will spur on some civilian innovation as well.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I got the impression that is what it was all about from the beginning so I’m sure you’re right on point here.

Hell they may see what sig did with the fury like what they see with the case and extreme pressure, adapt that to 5.56 figure out a new clambering and barrel profile and now we have a way to get our 14.5" barrels closer to the 20" barrel performance

 

[Podmonkey]

I think this contract will be more for the advancing of the ammo tech in the end

Relatively heavy 6mm bullet at velocity that balances ballistic performance with full auto controlability in a telescoped polymer case or the Army can go fuck itself for wasting taxpayer dollars.
And I want to see that 6mm cartridge replace both the 5.56 AND 7.62.
Replace the 9mm with something more PDWish.
Something like a milder form of 7.5fk. Relatively high velocity .30 cal pistol bullets have a pretty good track record for balanced performance.
Make that one a telescoped polymer case too.
Then shove an M16A2 up the ass of whoever was responsible for issuing me that thing when working with M985 HEMTTs and M270 SPLLs.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Sadly I don't think we will see the telescoping ammo get much more advancement, that was from a different company

 

[Podmonkey]

Sadly I don't think we will see the telescoping ammo get much more advancement, that was from a different company

I don’t think telescoped ammunition went very far in development at all. However that is the next logical step. That is the next, closest step that makes any sense at all for changing our small arms procurement. Short of that we should Stat with out current small arms on current ammunition. With the exception of tge Knights Armament machine gums. We need to test those ASAP and if testing proves successful adopt them ASAP. Keep the MAG around for applications where weight doesn't matter and sustained fire does like coax, pintle, ring and whatnot mounts.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I don’t think telescoped ammunition went very far in development at all. However that is the next logical step. That is the next, closest step that makes any sense at all for changing our small arms procurement. Short of that we should Stat with out current small arms on current ammunition. With the exception of tge Knights Armament machine gums. We need to test those ASAP and if testing proves successful adopt them ASAP. Keep the MAG around for applications where weight doesn't matter and sustained fire does like coax, pintle, ring and whatnot mounts.

Yea I think that was the company that also introduced that bulpup and weird suppressor that did the telescoping ammo

 

[Will556]

It seems like it’s going to be hindering mobility is you’re trying to swap 5.56 out to the new round. From four years ago but Chuck always makes some pretty solid points and knows his shit.

 

[Will556]

Also imagine having to carry this behemoth, lol.

 

[Will556]

The notional future US Army Rifle Squad with SIG's NGSW winners (provided the squad organization isn't changed under a separate initiative). With "close combat" troops (infantry being the obvious), the M5 will replace the M4A1 while the M250 will replace the M249. The new Vortex Fire Control Optic (XM157) will replace the close combat optic (Aimpoint), rifle combat optic (Trijicon), and machine gun optic (Elcan). The presence of M17 pistols in the squad is a separate initiative, as the Army signalled around 2017 that it wants to issue them to Squad Leaders and Fire Team Leaders.

 

[dsdmmat]

Also imagine having to carry this behemoth, lol.
View attachment 155583

I carried an M60G the first year I was in. Then I traded it in for an M10 and two M-60Ds

 

[Will556]

Ok, hear me out…who’s carrying this Chonky Boi?!

 

[GOPerfect]

The top end vortex scopes are actually pretty solid..

Be honest with you, I have owned some of their low end and was rather happy with them.

My opinion, Vortex is solid. I know many may think different, but I will stick with my positive thoughts.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Be honest with you, I have owned some of their low end and was rather happy with them.

My opinion, Vortex is solid. I know many may think different, but I will stick with my positive thoughts.

They have been getting better over years and are offering good mid range scopes

 

[GOPerfect]

They have been getting better over years and are offering good mid range scopes

Agreed, a big rocky at the beginning. Life is a dance, you learn as you go. They are learning.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Agreed, a big rocky at the beginning. Life is a dance, you learn as you go. They are learning.

And others coming into the market with similar priced products made them step up their quality

 

[96coal449]

Not to re derail, but the PDW talk had me remembering. Back before they were a thing, and subs still were, I always wanted to see one with a 12=14'' medium heavy barrel, 30 rnd sticks, and chambered for 30 carbine. If the bullet could be stabilized, it might have a bit of range with some umph.

 

[Will556]

Ok ok ok…now REALLY hear me out. If Magpul starts making a D-50 for this thing, now who’s carrying this bastard? lol

 

[Acer-m14]

I think us Civilian's should test them out first .. everyone gets a free one ..

 

[Podmonkey]

Also imagine having to carry this behemoth, lol.
View attachment 155583

That looks like it weighs about as much as.............an Iowa class.

 

[Podmonkey]

Come to find that the contract is for 20,000 guns
It's a field use test program. My prediction is they procure 10,000 or less of the rifles which will work fine but soldiers will find the system too heavy and not sufficiently controlable in full auto.
The program will stall out with elements being incorporated back into existing weapons. A simplified version of the optic will surely be adopted and there is a decent chance of the light machine gun being adopted, chambered in 5.56.

 

[Will556]

My favorite part of this whole this is the optic. It’s going to be surprisingly lightweight for what it’s capabilities are. A quality 1-8x30mm LPVO powered by two CR123’s which sends that power to the onboard keypad and rotary knob that provides the built-in Lpvo’s display hub’s capabilities. Which the display is completely full functioning and can be super imposed within the first focal plane and can have anything and everything that they want to show. They can have ballistic drops and wind holds for that specific ballistic drop automatically displayed. The full menu for the scope can be brought up as well instead of trying to look in the rear of an additional unit’s small LCD display and only being able to see tiny little words at a time and needing to scroll through the entire menu just to be able to see all the options. With the Vortex, you get the entire menu at one if you want and much easier to navigate.

Not only does the scope have all those capabilities but it also interfaces with an entire network of systems like visors, other optics, phones which can transmit that information and communicate to other soldiers by setting way points, distances. It also has built in sensors for temperature, altitude, inclination, declination…

When the Lpvo is being run in it’s 1x configuration the end user can choose what size reticle they want to use for potential cqb environments. They want to use a 2moa, 4moa, up to an 8moa circle, the user can choose what is displayed with all the other ranging data removed so the optic is not cluttered during close engagements.

The Lpvo comes with the integrated scope mount and is already leveled in the mount. The laser/rangefinder module on top is powered by the Lpvo’s on board CR123’s. To have the amount of capabilities of what the new Vortex unit has you would need obviously a 1-8x30mm Lpvo, a scope mount, an additional long picatinny adapter attached to the scope to integrate a Wilcox Raptor (the one that I previously mentioned with the small lcd display which is unable to show all the information at once), then the Wilcox Raptor unit itself. Having all of those things still doesn’t give you the ability to automatically display the images into the Lpvo and display the proper ballistics within tenths of a second within the shooters view. The user would still have to take the information given by the Raptor and either attempt hold-overs or dial in the scope in regards to the Raptor’s information. The entire Vortex system is much lighter than what alternatives would be.