Army Round Triggers Problems In Marines M27 Auto Rifle ?
- Thread starter GOYABEAN
- Start date
Article hints that the Mk 318 is going by the wayside. Pity I think it is the better of the two rounds. I wonder when we will see M855A1 surplus, and how much more will it cost?
Don't read the comments. Everyone thinks the Marines are being pre-Madonna's and the army round is superior. I would love to see the actual test data and see if it's been a fair comparison. I still think either a Barnes style bullet or a soft point like power point would be best pending testing. Either way any bets when we can buy surplus 5.56 cheaply again?
Shadow2
6.5 Creedmoor
Military Spends more money to solve problems that should have been obvious to begin with. A Universal bullet what a concept, logistically ground breaking.
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Shadow2
6.5 Creedmoor
OTM bullet has been the go too for accuracy for a long time, seems the issue is lead for what ever reason and reason why they want to go to steel. I'm all for MK318 at bargain surplus prices.
Soft points? you mean lead? they would fall under expanding which are not allowed in combat. OTMs are not designed to expand its just the opening left during manufacturing so legal for combat.
Kind of odd if you think about it, expanding bullets are banded in combat, but good to go to use on your own people.
Soft points? you mean lead? they would fall under expanding which are not allowed in combat. OTMs are not designed to expand its just the opening left during manufacturing so legal for combat.
Kind of odd if you think about it, expanding bullets are banded in combat, but good to go to use on your own people.
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I would not be suprised to see the no expanding bullets thing go completey out the window soon. This country was never a signatory of the Hague Convention anyway. The miltary is giving serious consideration to issuing hollow point 9mm ammo and if they do all bets are off regarding other calibers. And I fail to see how the lack of lead and whatever other changes is supposed to make the M855 A1 so much better. I am also concerned with that exposed steel penetrator, could it be jarred loose in the magazine or action? The Mk 318 is simpler and based off proven tech and that coming from an ex Army guy. And because I know how doggedly stubborn and resistant to change the Army is, I see the writing on the wall for the Mk 318. Hopefully the M855A1 is as good as the Army hopes. And I hope it's construction doesn't translate into stupid high surplus costs!
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
The Army screwing things up as usual.
The M855A1 is a fine round the problem is it is longer that what it had to be so now it has to work at higher pressures.
The original arrowhead design was invented by liberty ammunitions using tungsten. The Army had to have a lead free round
only to find out that tungsten pollutes more than lead. So they decided to "borrow" the design from Liberty and make their own
version with a hardened steel that works the same but they kept the lead out that was a mistake IMO.
As a result the Army got sued for stealing Liberty's idea and we all had to pay for their mistakes after Liberty winning the law suit.
The bullet works as planned but it has to run a lot hotter just because the idiots in the Army decided they were not going
to introduce a lead slug that would have been the solution w/o impacting terminal performance at all. Nosler does it whit the partition bullets so it is not like we have to invent anything to keep the back of the bullet in one piece after fragmentation of the penetrating tip.
The marines had developed a OTM round but it is a very thick jacket so even it doesn't perform as well in hard barrier overall
is a very good performer and more reliable and versatile since it is a shorter round and more predictable in soft targets
that doesn't have to run so hot.
The marines also screwed up.
The M27 is a very bad idea going with a carbine again even if it is in a piston system and specially because of the reduction of
firepower for support. A carbine like that that trades off so many things already should be able to run with anything.
For $3000 a pop I would take the ball back into H&Ks court.
But I think everyone got shortchanged here. Everyone needs a more advanced round and a more advanced system that
goes with it. The 6mm is perfect and the technology is there but we keep giving the fighters a system that is not suitable
anymore. I mean, the 5.56 has come long ways, it is a lot more effective and versatile than many other rounds but
in the modern battlefields with extended ranges and harder conditions is stretched to the max.
I say time to say good bye to the round and the AR carbine for once and for all. The Chinese abandoned all previous choices
and they started a move in the right direction so imagine what we could do if we didn't have the cuff-links on. Screw NATO.
Even if we gave them a 6x45 or 6.8 right now it would be a substantial improvement over the current round w/o the need
to research anything else.
I have little faith in any the higher upper thinking heads making the right decisions. All it might take is Russia to shift to
a 6mm like china did and then it will hit us in the face.
The M855A1 is a fine round the problem is it is longer that what it had to be so now it has to work at higher pressures.
The original arrowhead design was invented by liberty ammunitions using tungsten. The Army had to have a lead free round
only to find out that tungsten pollutes more than lead. So they decided to "borrow" the design from Liberty and make their own
version with a hardened steel that works the same but they kept the lead out that was a mistake IMO.
As a result the Army got sued for stealing Liberty's idea and we all had to pay for their mistakes after Liberty winning the law suit.
The bullet works as planned but it has to run a lot hotter just because the idiots in the Army decided they were not going
to introduce a lead slug that would have been the solution w/o impacting terminal performance at all. Nosler does it whit the partition bullets so it is not like we have to invent anything to keep the back of the bullet in one piece after fragmentation of the penetrating tip.
The marines had developed a OTM round but it is a very thick jacket so even it doesn't perform as well in hard barrier overall
is a very good performer and more reliable and versatile since it is a shorter round and more predictable in soft targets
that doesn't have to run so hot.
The marines also screwed up.
The M27 is a very bad idea going with a carbine again even if it is in a piston system and specially because of the reduction of
firepower for support. A carbine like that that trades off so many things already should be able to run with anything.
For $3000 a pop I would take the ball back into H&Ks court.
But I think everyone got shortchanged here. Everyone needs a more advanced round and a more advanced system that
goes with it. The 6mm is perfect and the technology is there but we keep giving the fighters a system that is not suitable
anymore. I mean, the 5.56 has come long ways, it is a lot more effective and versatile than many other rounds but
in the modern battlefields with extended ranges and harder conditions is stretched to the max.
I say time to say good bye to the round and the AR carbine for once and for all. The Chinese abandoned all previous choices
and they started a move in the right direction so imagine what we could do if we didn't have the cuff-links on. Screw NATO.
Even if we gave them a 6x45 or 6.8 right now it would be a substantial improvement over the current round w/o the need
to research anything else.
I have little faith in any the higher upper thinking heads making the right decisions. All it might take is Russia to shift to
a 6mm like china did and then it will hit us in the face.
Exactly, what Meke said. And how the Marines think a piston AR with 30 round box mags could ever take the place of a lightweight, belt fed, open bolt machine gun with a quick change barrel is absolutely beyond me! The M249 is an excellent light machine gun with proper sustained fire capability unlike any box mag, fixed barrel design.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You said, "lightweight."
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I understood what he said... lets say "lighter" ...You said, "lightweight."
the point is there are 1000 better choices for support that can take a nr. of large feeding devices
including a belt from an open bolt. And they do not have to be heavy or conspicuous.
18lbs is lightweight for a belt fed machine gun if you ask me. Light enough to fire from the shoulder. I was a SAW gunner for awhile, I loved that thing.You said, "lightweight."
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Sometimes it's about comfort man. When you check into a new unit and they tell you that you will be humping a pig, your jaw drops and you start to think of ways to get out of it.
A Saw Gunner has a difficult time since it's hard trying to manuever with your team with 22 pounds loaded not counting spare belts. You cannot hold it at the ready for long periods and climbing obstacles is a bitch. Many Saw Gunners slow their team down.
I think the Marines got it right. The automatic rifleman was never intended to carry a clumsy belt fed. He carried a BAR.
The Machine Gunners however were. These guys that carried belt feds were in Weapon Support Platoons and weren't utilized in a house to house fighting like a line squad is.
A Saw Gunner has a difficult time since it's hard trying to manuever with your team with 22 pounds loaded not counting spare belts. You cannot hold it at the ready for long periods and climbing obstacles is a bitch. Many Saw Gunners slow their team down.
I think the Marines got it right. The automatic rifleman was never intended to carry a clumsy belt fed. He carried a BAR.
The Machine Gunners however were. These guys that carried belt feds were in Weapon Support Platoons and weren't utilized in a house to house fighting like a line squad is.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Try humping that thing in the hot, humid, hilly, canopied jungles of Okinawa. Every guy I knew hated it.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
The H&K is a nice system but IMO less than ideal for this role.
WE take it like if it was a voodoo secret or something.
Many places to choose from to get started.
Plenty of reliable belt feeder designs that are easily retrofitted.
Instead we leave the support guy shorthanded.
Otherwise send the requirements to the Russians and in no time you have a custom light RPD in 5.56 with exchangeable barrel.
WE take it like if it was a voodoo secret or something.
Many places to choose from to get started.
Plenty of reliable belt feeder designs that are easily retrofitted.
Instead we leave the support guy shorthanded.
Otherwise send the requirements to the Russians and in no time you have a custom light RPD in 5.56 with exchangeable barrel.
BAR was heavier than a SAW. BAR was a pretty shitty support gun in general, great when it was first designed but thoroughly outdated by WW2. I was supposed to trade off for an M4 for close/house stuff anyway and the battery was to be mostly vehicle born anyway. I didn't make it over there in any event due to an illness so I can't say how I would have coped.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That's the thing, the Saw Gunners aren't support guys. They are automatic rifleman in line squads. The Machine Gunners aren't usually used in ways line guys are used. They are in Heavy Weapons Platoons and employ the M240 for support roles.The H&K is a nice system but IMO less than ideal for this role.
WE take it like if it was a voodoo secret or something.
Many places to choose from to get started.
Plenty of reliable belt feeder designs that are easily retrofitted.
Instead we leave the support guy shorthanded.
Otherwise send the requirements to the Russians and in no time you have a custom light RPD in 5.56 with exchangeable barrel.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
IT is easier for them to transition in support roles that give them acurate single shot fire but w/o taking all the firepower away right? Because imo this is what they are doing. the M27 doesn't hold water.
Yup, organic at the squad level.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
They lose some firepower but gain mobility. The Corps is also playing with the idea of using them as Designated Marksman as well to bring further capabilities to the the fireteam.
The guys with the 7.62 M240's are not too far behind.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
That is the idea so I am not arguing with mobility but also do not need to take so much firepower away.
only need to train them well in DM role but the other tactics still might apply and have the option to be able to do them efficiently.
Today there is no much logic in the way different factions fight so they are trying more agile multidisciplinary approach.
A guy doing over-watch might have to move around with high adaptability and come to a place where his role (and the role
of the weapon) changes drastically from one location to another.
Anyway, this is a different subject.
I just hope they also tell H&K .... At $3000 each dry, WTF?
only need to train them well in DM role but the other tactics still might apply and have the option to be able to do them efficiently.
Today there is no much logic in the way different factions fight so they are trying more agile multidisciplinary approach.
A guy doing over-watch might have to move around with high adaptability and come to a place where his role (and the role
of the weapon) changes drastically from one location to another.
Anyway, this is a different subject.
I just hope they also tell H&K .... At $3000 each dry, WTF?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
The Corps has done a lot of things in the right direction coming out of these wars. They got the uniforms right. They refused to go with the sexier M4 at a loss of velocity. They revamped the Antitankman into an Assaultman where now he has two jobs. He's a Missleman and a Demolitions man all in one due to the non-availability of the Combat Engineer that are bogged down handling IED's. They have a good open tipped round.
I guess they figured that a Saw Gunner can serve a more effective role with a platform that can provide more accurate automatic fire and or quasi sniper fire at the fireteam level of 4 men with something that isn't fully automatic only. They do preach marksmanship over volume after all and always will.
I guess they figured that a Saw Gunner can serve a more effective role with a platform that can provide more accurate automatic fire and or quasi sniper fire at the fireteam level of 4 men with something that isn't fully automatic only. They do preach marksmanship over volume after all and always will.
As podmonkey pointed out there is no legal reason for us not to use an expanding round. This was born out of the houge convention, which we did not sign on to. There is no reason for us not to use the best bullets to stop the enemy. The whole idea of wounding instead of killing is and was bullshit from the start. I still think they should adopt a Barnes TTSX or a Winchester power point style bullets for testing. I do agree a caliber change to the 6mm range should occur but won't until the decide to switch weapons platform.