Buying gun from law enforcement friend

[Justincase]

So, I've got a question. A buddy of mine for over 30 years is a police officer in another state. I want to buy a gun that isn't available anywhere with 10 round mags. Could he buy the model with the usual 15 round mags and then sell me the gun without the mags by sending it to an ffl here? That should be legal, right? Or would that put up red flags?

 

[Curmudgeon]

IT'S A TRAP!!!!

Just kidding. A gun is a gun, is a gun. Shouldn't be an issue beyond the whole, taking it out in public with its evil feature.

 

[dsdmmat]

So, I've got a question. A buddy of mine for over 30 years is a police officer in another state. I want to buy a gun that isn't available anywhere with 10 round mags. Could he buy the model with the usual 15 round mags and then sell me the gun without the mags by sending it to an ffl here? That should be legal, right? Or would that put up red flags?

So an officer went to jail (well actually 5 years probation) a while ago for this very thing. The courts determined that buying a gun for his uncle because he could get a le discount was a straw purchase. Both he and the uncle went through an FFL to transfer it. The court still determined it was a straw purchase. I would recommend finding another way.
Supreme Court Cracks Down on Straw Purchases of Guns: HoganWillig Blog

 

[cgrutt]

So an officer went to jail (well actually 5 years probation) a while ago for this very thing. The courts determined that buying a gun for his uncle because he could get a le discount was a straw purchase. Both he and the uncle went through an FFL to transfer it. The court still determined it was a straw purchase. I would recommend finding another way.
Supreme Court Cracks Down on Straw Purchases of Guns: HoganWillig Blog

Dont believe gun was transferred to uncle through FFL in Abramski case Abramski purchased gun through FFL on behalf of uncle. Deemed to be straw purchase because Abramski answered purchase was for himself on 4473. Could be wrong...

 

[dsdmmat]

Dont believe gun was transferred to uncle through FFL in Abramski case Abramski purchased gun through FFL on behalf of uncle. Deemed to be straw purchase because Abramski answered purchase was for himself on 4473. Could be wrong...

It was transferred through an FFL in PA where the uncle was a resident. Abramski v. United States - Wikipedia Read the factual background section.

I think it was a horrible ruling but it was a SCotUS ruling which is unlikely going to be reversed by the court( it has happened but rarely).

 

[MoMan]

There is where the whole "straw purchase" law is flawed. In their attempt to close up a flaw in their system, they make it illegal to actually purchase a firearm for someone who may legally own one. That whole question on the 4473 where it asks; "Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?", makes it a problem.

I think if it gets transferred through an FFL, then obviously the recipient was eligible to possess a firearm.

It is a perfect example of a bullshit "common sense" gun law!!

 

[cgrutt]

It was transferred through an FFL in PA where the uncle was a resident. Abramski v. United States - Wikipedia Read the factual background section.

So there were two 4473s filled out then? One by Abramski and a second transfer to Alverez? I don't believe this was the case here. As I said could be wrong.

By concealing that Alvarez was the actual buyer, Abramski prevented the dealer from transacting with Alvarez face-to-face, recording his name, age, and residence, inspecting his photo ID, submitting his identifying information to the background check system, and determining whether he was prohibited from receiving a firearm.”

EDIT so it seems gun was transferred to uncle through separate background check my bad. Also wasn't aware that this came about as a result of separate investigation of Abramski for suspected bank robbery lol...

 

[Robin]

I want to sell my boat, do I call the Navy, Coastguard or just notify the lifeguard at the natatorium?
Robin

 

[dsdmmat]

So there were two 4473s filled out then? One by Abramski and a second transfer to Alverez? I don't believe this was the case here. As I said could be wrong.

[QOUTE] After passing the background checks, and receiving the gun, Abramski contacted a federally licensed firearms dealer (FFL) in Pennsylvania, which conducted its own background check on Alvarez[10] and then proceeded to transfer the gun to Alvarez through the FFL.[10]
[/QUOTE]

Yes there were two 4473s the FFL in pa did a background check on the uncle. According to the factual data section in the link I provided.

I believe The whole thing started because one of the FFLs reported (probably the first one) it as a straw purchase. The uncle was not entitled to the LE discount. The officer probably gave the FFL too much information which lead to the straw purchase report.

It would have been perfectly legal for the officer to buy the gun not take possession of it and have it transferred to the uncle’s FFL for the uncle to pick up. However doing it that way the LE discount would not have been applied. That was the whole driver of the situation.

 

[livingston]

I want to sell my boat, do I call the Navy, Coastguard or just notify the lifeguard at the natatorium?
Robin

Cuomo should be handling this .....

 

[cgrutt]

Yes there were two 4473s the FFL in pa did a background check on the uncle. According to the factual data section in the link I provided.

I believe The whole thing started because original FFL reported it as a straw purchase. The uncle was not entitled to the LE discount. The officer probably gave the FFL too much information which lead to the straw purchase report.

It would have been perfectly legal for the officer to buy the gun not take possession of it and have it transferred to the uncle’s FFL for the uncle to pick up. However doing it that way the LE discount would not have been applied. That was the whole driver of the situation.

Yeah edited post I thought there was only one transfer...

BTW factual background section that you posted said receipt for transaction was found while investigating Abramski for suspected bank robbery...

 

[dsdmmat]

If you are dead set on this gun this is how I would do it.

Have your friend talk to the FFL and see if he would be willing to send the gun to a NY FFL without any magazines. If the FFL is willing you send a check to the FFL along with a copy of the receiving FFL’’s license and then take possession, then only one 4473 is done and there is no straw purchase indicators.

 

[dsdmmat]

Yeah edited post I thought there was only one transfer...

BTW factual background section that you posted said receipt for transaction was found while investigating Abramski for suspected bank robbery...

Interesting

 

[Eddie Gunks]

Interesting

The uncle sent a check to the cop/nephew with the memo stating “for glock pistol” or something like that.

So a real deal straw purchase.... . And abuse of hlock blue line guns.

Glad he got caught.

 

[thegatman]

I want to sell my boat, do I call the Navy, Coastguard or just notify the lifeguard at the natatorium?
Robin

Nata what? LOL I actually remember it.

 

[Justincase]

Holy crapola. Wouldn't want to open up a whole can of worms like that. So if he buys a gun, keeps it for a couple months, doesn't like it and then sells it, It's a straw purchase?

I don't need it right away, just thought this could be a viable way of doing it.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If they don't make magazines that are 10 RDS or less, how will you shoot it?

 

[Justincase]

If they don't make magazines that are 10 RDS or less, how will you shoot it?

They do, the ten round version has just been out of stock forever and i don't know how long this thing will be in production since its the older model

 

[Airborneguy]

You’re better off discussing this with an FFL. They could order the gun and keep the mags (probably at your loss unfortunately).

 

[Target]

One FFL I deal with will pin mags for $10.

 

[Justincase]

You’re better off discussing this with an FFL. They could order the gun and keep the mags (probably at your loss unfortunately).

I wouldn't mind doing that but i don't think Buds will send it with the 15 rounders though.

 

[Cattafly]

Person #1 gives or sends the gun to FFl. FFL then puts it in their books therefor taking possession. Person#2 then has a background check on him and pays for transaction. One background check, same as if person #1 sold gun to FFL and person #2 bought it.

 

[Cattafly]

I wouldn't mind doing that but i don't think Buds will send it with the 15 rounders though.

They may send with mags but FFL won't give them to you.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

Holy crapola. Wouldn't want to open up a whole can of worms like that. So if he buys a gun, keeps it for a couple months, doesn't like it and then sells it, It's a straw purchase?

I don't need it right away, just thought this could be a viable way of doing it.

Still a straw purchase.

And now that you talkked about it on the internet you have a “paper trail”.....

The key here is the question on the 4473 “....are you the purchaser? Basically are you buying it for you or for someone else? The answer is he is buying it for you = straw purchase. Even if you transfer through another ffl to you, if he answers it is for him and this paper trail is discovered and can be proven, he is potentially in trouble.

 

[Cattafly]

Still a straw purchase.
he would have bought it from me
And now that you talkked about it on the internet you have a “paper trail”.....

The key here is the question on the 4473 “....are you the purchaser? Basically are you buying it for you or for someone else? The answer is he is buying it for you = straw purchase. Even if you transfer through another ffl to you, if he answers it is for him and this paper trail is discovered and can be proven, he is potentially in trouble.

The way you are interpreting the law no one could ever sell a used gun as everyone has to answer yes to that question or an FFL won't even run the background check. Example, I go to FFL and sell him my gun and then my friend comes in and says he would have bought it from me and then buys it from FFL. He must answer yes to that question on the 4473. Whether you are buying from FFL or individual you must have a background check done on you. A straw purchase is when someone buys the gun doing a background check and gives it to someone because they can't pass the check.

 

[dsdmmat]

The way you are interpreting the law no one could ever sell a used gun as everyone has to answer yes to that question or an FFL won't even run the background check. Example, I go to FFL and sell him my gun and then my friend comes in and says he would have bought it from me and then buys it from FFL. He must answer yes to that question on the 4473. Whether you are buying from FFL or individual you must have a background check done on you. A straw purchase is when someone buys the gun doing a background check and gives it to someone because they can't pass the check.

You need to read the Supreme Court decision that has been linked to in this thread.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

The way you are interpreting the law no one could ever sell a used gun as everyone has to answer yes to that question or an FFL won't even run the background check. Example, I go to FFL and sell him my gun and then my friend comes in and says he would have bought it from me and then buys it from FFL. He must answer yes to that question on the 4473. Whether you are buying from FFL or individual you must have a background check done on you. A straw purchase is when someone buys the gun doing a background check and gives it to someone because they can't pass the check.

You are not understanding it. It does not say “buy for someone that cant pass the bgc”. The question is “are you the ACTUAL buyer of the firearm?

If you buy a gun for yourself and decide to sell it. No problem.

If you buy a gun with the intention to sell it you Need to be a dealer. If you have a friend that buys a gun for you (and money is exchanged) it is a straw purchase.

Tou can buy a gun and give it to someone. But it needs to be a gift, you can not exchange money or anything of value .......ha ha ha. Now you are really gonna have trouble with this......

The key is this example the OP posted. He clearly says he wants a friend to buy a gun for him , and give it to him. This is a straw purchase. Even if it sounds stupid.

 

[Airborneguy]

A straw purchase is when someone buys the gun doing a background check and gives it to someone because they can't pass the check.

A straw purchase is when you buy a gun for someone else, period. I believe there is an exception for gifts stated up front, but that’s it.

 

[Cattafly]

Maybe I put it wrong. Friend buys gun then ships it or takes to FFL. Money transaction is done between private individuals. FFL takes possession of gun and logs it into his books. Friend who is buyer does a 4473 and answers he is the actual buyer at that point. Buyer takes receipt to county clerk and puts gun on their permit. Buyer receives a "coupon" stating gun is now on buyers permit. Buyer takes this to FFL and the gun is transferred. How is this a straw purchase.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Maybe I put it wrong. Friend buys gun then ships it or takes to FFL. Money transaction is done between private individuals. FFL takes possession of gun and logs it into his books. Friend who is buyer does a 4473 and answers he is the actual buyer at that point. Buyer takes receipt to county clerk and puts gun on their permit. Buyer receives a "coupon" stating gun is now on buyers permit. Buyer takes this to FFL and the gun is transferred. How is this a straw purchase.

Did you read the decision? You can't buy a gun with intentions of it being for someone else. The cop who got charged with the straw purchase did exactly what you are saying to the letter and it was ruled to be a straw purchase.

I and many don't agree with that decision but it happened.