Not wanting to get in on the argument but i think they could charge with Brandishing?
Just thinking off the cuff. Only thing i could think of.
Chest Holster for Revolver
- Thread starter 1075tech
- Start date
Not wanting to get in on the argument but i think they could charge with Brandishing?
Just thinking off the cuff. Only thing i could think of.
There is no language which specifically prohibits OC; that's the point that @spat and myself are making.
Could a prosecutor ring you up for violating the intent of Penal Code 400? Maybe, though I'd argue the context of that violation would be a deciding factor. Could a judge arbitrarily take away your license for behavior he/she deems inappropriate? Much more likely than the latter, but again the context matters.
OC is, to some degree, allowed...people hunt and target shoot on public lands all the time, as well as at private ranges. There are no specific exemptions from the "have and carry concealed" language, but plenty of people engage in those activities with pistols all the same...I don't ever hear of people getting arrested for OC of a pistol while hunting or target shooting.
Also, I would take anything the NRA, or any gun advocacy group, claims about state rules and laws with a grain of salt...a lot of those lawyers: 1) aren't lawyers and 2) offer gross misinterpretations of state rules either due to negligence or CYA (erring on the side of caution).
I've seen one group, USCCA, write on their website that mere possession of any firearm on NY state land outside of hunting season is illegal; that is patently false.
Tangent aside, I'm glad the OP finally got his holster.
Chest holsters, especially Diamond D Guide's Choice, are well made and offer an ergonomic way to carry bulky revolvers and semi-auto's.
I'd put your pistol into the holster for a few days to help break it in. Otherwise, enjoy it!
Chest holsters, especially Diamond D Guide's Choice, are well made and offer an ergonomic way to carry bulky revolvers and semi-auto's.
I'd put your pistol into the holster for a few days to help break it in. Otherwise, enjoy it!
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That’s not how laws work. They don’t have to specifically say that certain circumstances are legal when it is flat out illegal to begin with. If killing someone is illegal except when exempted for certain instances of self defense spelled out in the penal law, it doesn’t mean that you perform a mercy killing because it isn’t spelled out in the law.
Like I said earlier... Because it is not enforced, it doesn’t mean it’s legal. It isn’t enforced if you go 5 mph over the speed limit in most places or if you have an obstruction on your windshield like a GPS but just because it isn’t enforced, that doesn’t make it legal. It just makes it accepted.
Not an apples to apples comparison
Killing someone is illegal by default...there are specific laws which note that. Lethal force is allowed in certain circumstances of self defense...there are specific laws which note that as well.
There is no law which which specifies that OC is illegal by default. Penal Code 400 states "have and carry concealed" but does not specify that OC is illegal by comparison. Penal Code 265's portion about "illegal possession" doesn't apply to someone with a pistol permit....and moreover it also doesn't specify that OC is illegal, rather it merely talks about "illegal" possession of a prohibited weapon.
Also, I find it hard to believe that thousands upon thousands of handgun hunters and target shooters who have been open-carrying on public lands on an annual basis have evaded tickets or criminal charges because they simply slipped through cracks of enforcement. Handgun hunting on state land is allowed...in order to handgun hunt, you need to have your pistol drawn and ready (i.e. open carrying)...if open-carrying were truly "illegal" (as you claim it is), the DEC would not allow handgun hunting on state lands.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
We've been over this a dozen times, and we're obviously not going to ever agree, but for the benefit of everyone else reading, the only thing that is prohibited is possession without a license.
Then you will argue that the license is invalid while OC, because it says carry concealed.
Then I will point out that the license is valid while the gun is locked in your safe at home proving that it is not invalid when you are not carrying it concealed, and I will note that having one in your safe without that license is illegal, proving that the license covers possession outside of the carrying concealed condition.
Then you will claim to have covered that point many times before, without offering any evidence or summary.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Yes there is. Penal law 265. Can a non licensed person open carry? That’s a big no. Why? Because they aren’t exempted. What do your exemptions say in Penal law 400?
Do you find it hard to believe that millions of people don’t get pulled over for 5mph over the speed limit? Do you find it hard to believe that millions of people don’t get charged for adultery? It’s not an apples to orange comparison. Open carriers aren’t bothered hunting because it’s ridiculous to hunt concealed. Just the same as it’s ridiculous to put someone in jail for committing adultery.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Your license is “to have” so if in your safe you are exempted in having it unlike others who aren’t licensed.
“To Carry concealed without regard to employment or place of possession ” is your 2nd exemption.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
So, you are licensed "to have" which exempts you from being prosecuted for possession, right ?
What is left to charge you with for OC ? Possession is the only thing otherwise prohibited that you are doing ?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I already explained that in a previous post. It’s a misdemeanor for violating Penal law 400.
It’s almost as if you ignore my posts and keep repeating everything all over again.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
We just disagree about that point. I find nothing in PL 400 that prohibits OC, and you seem to think it's in there somewhere.
I look at the "and carry concealed" as a clarification that concealed carry is also *explicitly* permitted with the permit as when the law was passed (and for about 70 years afterward) concealed carry was generally prohibited in most jurisdictions in the US.
Think of it this way, If you could get a special driver's license that said "drive and exceed posted speed limits" you wouldn't interpret that to mean you couldn't drive on a highway below the speed limit would you ?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Let’s break this down.
Can someone without a license open carry? No. Why? Penal law makes possession illegal. If someone is carrying, he is also possessing it. I think we can agree on that.
Does Penal law 265 have exemptions? Yes. Does it say that those licensed via Penal law 400 are exempted from Penal law 265? Yes I think we can agree on that one too.
Now on to Penal law 400. Is your category of license “to have and carry concealed”? Yes. We can agree on that one too.
Do you have a license that says “to have and carry openly”? No. We can agree on that one as well.
Does the Penal law differentiate between possessing and carrying? Yes. Where does it say that? Right here.
7. A license to carry or possess a pistol or revolver shall have attached the licensee's photograph, and a coupon which shall be removed and retained by any person disposing of a firearm to the licensee. Such license shall specify the weapon covered by calibre, make, model, manufacturer's name and serial number, or if none, by any other distinguishing number or identification mark, and shall indicate whether issued to carry on the person or possess on the premises, and if on the premises shall also specify the place where the licensee shall possess the same.
8. License: exhibition and display. Every licensee while carrying a pistol or revolver shall have on his or her person a license to carry the same. Every person licensed to possess a pistol or revolver on particular premises shall have the license for the same on such premises.
Since carrying and possessing are differentiated, can a person with a premise permit carry a handgun without a carry license? No. Why? Because he doesn’t have a license to carry. Read number 8 above.
Now back to number 8. Are you a licensee. Yes. If you open carry are you exhibiting and displaying it? Yes. Do you have a license to exhibit and display it for open carry? No. What is your carry license for? To carry concealed. So if you open carry and you don’t have a carry license to exhibit and display it on your person, are you violating Penal law 400? Yes. Why? Because you cannot produce a carry license that allows you to exhibit it and display it. You can only produce one that’s for carrying concealed.
So what are the penalties for violating that section? 15. Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a class A misdemeanor.
It’s really that simple. Nowhere does it say that you cannot open carry. You are correct on that one. But it does say that you must have a license if you are carrying it. Do you have a license to open carry? No. You do not.
1075tech
.338 Win Mag
Notwithstanding various sections of PL 265 and 400, my "pistol permit" simply states "License To Carry Pistol is Hereby Granted". It says nothing of "concealed".
Under my photo is the word "Unrestricted".
On the reverse, it states, " This License is Issued With The Following Conditions:
1. It Is revocable at anytime.
2. If issued outside New York City, not valid to carry a weapon in New York City unless approved by the police commissioner of that city."
Again, notwithstanding PL, I personally have been approached by ENCON police, more than once, while hunting and openly carrying. The most they have said and done was to ask to see my pistol permit and checked to make sure that the pistol I was carrying was listed on my permit.
Under my photo is the word "Unrestricted".
On the reverse, it states, " This License is Issued With The Following Conditions:
1. It Is revocable at anytime.
2. If issued outside New York City, not valid to carry a weapon in New York City unless approved by the police commissioner of that city."
Again, notwithstanding PL, I personally have been approached by ENCON police, more than once, while hunting and openly carrying. The most they have said and done was to ask to see my pistol permit and checked to make sure that the pistol I was carrying was listed on my permit.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Read Penal law 400.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
@Willjr75 -
"Exhibition and display" in the section you cited refers to the permit/license, not the firearm.
"Exhibition and display" in the section you cited refers to the permit/license, not the firearm.
This endless argument is still going on after all these years? [SIGH]
Penal Law 265 DOES NOT say that open carry is illegal....it just doesn't. The assumption your whole argument is relying upon is that open carry by a pistol permit holder would constitute "illegal possession" as per law 265....but that's a very hefty and unsubstantiated assumption on your part.
No, what I find hard to believe is that you think one executive agency of NYS (DEC) would allow for a a legal hunting season using handguns (which entails open carry), while other executive agencies (NYS Police and State Attorney's office) deem that any open carry is illegal by default.
The notion that handgun hunting is allowed in NY simply because certain agencies and LE choose to not enforce the supposed OC prohibition is just a naive and poorly thought-out argument on your part.
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spat
.700 Nitro Express
Ok, what about OC of a long arm ? Eliminate the pistol permit entirely. What provision of the law prevents me from walking around with an 870 slung across my back ?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
None. I’ve said as such in other threads. Long guns are not illegal to possess and carry. In this case since they are not illegal to possess to carry, the Penal law doesn’t have to say that it is illegal to carry.
In a pistol’s case, it is illegal off the bat and those that want to carry it have to be exempted.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Correct. It doesn’t. It says that possession is illegal. Possession is carrying. Someone without a license issued via Penal law 400 cannot carry one. Unless you are saying that they can because you aren’t possessing it when you are carrying it. Now someone issued a Premise license is immune from Penal law 265. Your argument would be that they can carry concealed or open because they are licensed. That is false. They need a carry license to carry license to carry on their person just like you do. And what is your carry license for? Concealed or open?
What you don’t understand or don’t want to understand is that laws are written poorly. The DEC isn’t saying that you can carry openly. They are just saying that you can carry during hunting season. Why don’t they bother you? Because it’s stupid to bother you.
Here’s another poorly written law in Penal law 265.
15. “Loaded firearm” means any firearm loaded with ammunition or any firearm which is possessed by one who, at the same time, possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such firearm.
If you read that, just having ammunition nearby constitutes having a loaded firearm. That one too is ignored. Why? Because you will always have a loaded firearm. With that law, they can charge you just by having the ammunition nearby when you are in a place where it must be unloaded like in a vehicle during hunting season but they don’t because it’s stupid and the law is written poorly. They instead use common sense just like they do with carrying openly because it’s stupid to carry concealed while hunting.
Do you see my point now on why law enforcement has to ignore some laws? They have to because they don’t make sense.
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Yes. You are correct. I read that one wrong. That is for the display of the license. However in the same section ...
Every licensee while carrying a pistol or revolver shall have on his or her person a license to carry the same.
What is that license that we are issued for? Carry openly or concealed?
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
Mine specifically says "License to carry pistol is hereby granted."
It says nothing about the how or where on my person.
Sorry: ETA it does however say "Restrictions: Sports Person" at the very top of my permit.
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Jaywmustang
.308 Win
Mine is restricted to carry concealed
Weird I'm trying to find were it says I have to carry concealed.
It says something about unrestricted, but if it had to be concealed that would be a restriction ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ oh well
It says something about unrestricted, but if it had to be concealed that would be a restriction ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ oh well
Jaywmustang
.308 Win
It’s weird. I have a unrestricted restricted license?!?? My pic is the back of my license.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
Yeah I find this all very interesting and points to how it varies county to county. I find it interesting that yours explicitly says you can carry concealed, and it is unrestricted, but it almost implies that you HAVE TO carry concealed. Ed's doesn't say that. Mine, I know what Sports Person means but it is defined by the County. Not the Penal Code.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
What your license actually says is irrelevant. It’s what is in the Penal law that’s relevant. In a court of law, the Penal law is what will be referenced to and not what your license says or whatever handbook your county clerk gave you when you got your license.
That’s why restrictions mean nothing and county transport rules mean nothing. My county gave me a printed paper saying that it wasn’t valid in places that serve alcohol.
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Oh. Boy. Even you know that what’s printed on your license means nothing. You said as much numerous times in previous threads when it comes to restrictions.
But because I hurt your feelings about your Glock 19 , you are posting this nonsense. What do you want to hear? An apology? Fine. I am sorry Edward for making fun of your Glock 19. It was just a joke and I didn’t really mean it.
Hell my "approval" letter came with another letter attached specifically stating that it doesnt have to be concealed, they would just prefer it
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
Ok Will so what does the PL say it is a license for?