Russ Woody
.45 acp
In Cortland County, in order to take possession of your handgun you must have your coupon and then you have 10 days to return it to the County Clerk. I always take it back ASAP.
Cuomo extended our waiting time for handguns?
- Thread starter Russ Woody
- Start date
Cattafly
.40 S&W
Cortland must be one of the few counties where you can pre buy coupons right? Coupon then background check then walk out the door with your gun that day. Your responsibility to put on permit within 10 days right?
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The NICS expires after 30 days.
So if they run the NICS when you get the receipt they might have to run it again if it takes a month or more for the ammendment to go through.
There is no requirement for a NICS or permit to *own* a pistol (which is what the receipt shows). Just to possess one.
There are some counties where you have to purchase the pistol and get the receipt before you can even apply for the permit. As long as they remain in the FFL's possession you can own as many as you want without a permit.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The NICS proceed is only good for 30 days.
If the FFL runs one when he gives you the receipt, if you don't (or can't) pick it up within 30 days he will have to run another one.
.
Cattafly
.40 S&W
Yes I know it is only good for 30 days and yes another check would have to be done if it wasn't picked up within the 30 days. I was asking why and where it says a FFL couldn't run the check before you came to pick up the gun. Why would they be in trouble with the ATF or any state or federal agency as I believe that's what Chicken Shoot stated.The NICS proceed is only good for 30 days.
If the FFL runs one when he gives you the receipt, if you don't (or can't) pick it up within 30 days he will have to run another one.
.
ProgSpear
.338 Win Mag
Does all this apply to DeShawn when he gets his 9mm from Miguels trunk sale? If George decides to “loan” a gun to DeShawn, do they have to go through Miguel to make the transfer? Where does Miguel stash the 4473’s? So many confusing questions about this topic.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
They would probably be OK, as long as they ran the second check if necessary.
But technically they aren't allowed to run a NICS check for anything *but* the transfer of a gun, so if they started running one for purchase and a second for the transfer the ATF would probably frown on that at least.
There are very few laws regulating ownership of anything. Only possession. It would be perfectly legal for me to buy a metric ton of cocaine as long as I never took delivery in the US.
Some guy in England could buy a machinegun, as long as it always remained in the possession of the FFL here in the US for instance. So the NICS before issuing a receipt is both unnecessary and potentially a misuse of the system.
I bought a G26 before I had my permit, my FFL held on to it for months until I was able to take delivery. Guy should have charged me rent. I did one 4473, at pickup.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
There's another concept we could adopt from the unlicensed gun dealers. Community guns.
Want to go shooting but everything's at home ? just borrow one of the loaners at the range.....
Could run it like a public library
ProgSpear
.338 Win Mag
Seems like if the grabbers have their way, we’ll all be shopping at Miguels trunk.
Chicken Shoot
.45 acp
Lawyers for the gun shop I worked in AND my wife works with the ATF who confirmed this as well. You contacted the NY AG for a gun law? Wow.
Chicken Shoot
.45 acp
Are you serious?? What gun shop do you work for because they are in some severe shit for doing the BGC BEFORE the gun is to be picked up which is usually on a DIFFERENT day than said handgun is purchased!! Read this over and over until it sinks in. THE BGC IS NOT TO BE PERFORMED UNTIL THE FIREARM IS BEING TRANSFERRED TO THE NEW OWNER. The dates MUST be the same on the paperwork. I think that gun shop needs to shutdown and the owner and employees need to attend some BATFE/FBI classes on how things are to be conducted as an operating gun shop. I'm serious. They are in deep if there is an ATF inspection. I'm not being a smartass. I'm trying to give you advice to avoid BIG problems and massive fines at said gun shop. If you'd like, you can PM me and I'll get you the number to both ATF agents my wife and I BOTH worked with and she continues to do. Tread careful if this practice you mention is really being carried out.
Here's the scenario they give for this. You sell a handgun to someone and do the BGC then. They walk out without the gun they purchased. They are then waiting for their coupon to pickup the gun which could take a couple of weeks. Within that time, said person has committed a felony, had their guns confiscated, did a short 3 day stint in the county lock up, got released on bail and when they got home, the coupon was in the mail waiting for them. They now walk in to the gun shop, present the coupon and walk out WITHOUT a 4473 being performed on them the day they picked up the firearm. Now .... just who do you think is going to be in deep shit on this one?
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Cattafly
.40 S&W
If you look on the 4473 you will see there is a place the buyer has to sign when it is being picked up on a different day then they did the background check. That signature states that nothing changed since it was first processed. Why do you think that space is provided on the 4473? The gun shop I am talking about has been audited by the ATF many times and there has never been a problem. Now you read this over and over, THE PERSON BUYING THE GUN ONLY HAS TO SIGN THE 4473 ON THE SPACE PROVIDED IF BEING PICKED UP ON A DIFFERENT DAY THAN WHEN CHECK WAS DONE. Therefore the dates are the same as it will also be on the P12 form that MUST be submitted to the state. Now read that over and over till it sinks in. Not trying to come off as a smartass, well you're doing a damn poor job of that. If I am wrong please tell me why there is a space provided on the 4473 for picking up the gun on a different day then when the check was done.
Cattafly
.40 S&W
The AG of NY is the chief law enforcer of this state and yes I contacted her for a clarification of the law. In your other response you said you didn't want to come off as a smartass well Wow! If I follow your advice how well will it stand up in court when I tell them Chicken Shoot from the NYGF on the advice of his wife told me to do things that way?
Parzival
.357 mag
Background checks are good for 30 days, it does not need to be done the day of pick up. It’s right on the ATF website and the 4473.
How long is a NICS check valid? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
A NICS check is valid for 30 calendar days, for use in a single transaction. The 30-calendar day period is counted beginning on the day after NICS was initially contacted. Where more than 30 calendar days have passed since the licensee first contacted NICS, the licensee must initiate a new NICS...
“Questions 22 and 23. Transfer on a Different Day and Recertification: If the transfer takes place on a different day from the date that the transferee/buyer signed Section A, the licensee must again check the photo identification of the transferee/buyer at the time of transfer.”
Not all counties require you putting your new handgun on your permit before you pick it up. My county gives me a coupon, it’s always in my wallet. I can go to the store tomorrow, buy a handgun and take it home with me. When I send in the amendment form, they send back my new permit and a new coupon.
Chicken Shoot
.45 acp
Hi. This is Chicken Shoots wife. I work closely with the ATF and the reason we aren't allowed to run a background check *before* you come to pick up your gun is due to the fact that the NICS background check cannot be run until the DAY the pistol is actually being transferred to you. (And I do hope I'm reading that right and you didn't actually mean to imply that a background check is run on you without you being present!) Our process at our stores is as follows:
You come pick out the gun you want. You pay for the pistol, then we write a receipt with your name, NYSDL info, pistol permit info, and gun information. You get one copy, we retain the second copy in a file, the pistol goes in our pistol layaway room and then we all wait. You take the receipt and either mail it or bring it to your local county clerks pistol permit office, they then proceed to process the paperwork on their end, and hand it off to a judge to be signed off on. You then receive your coupon as well as your new amended pistol permit. You then bring that coupon to us on the day you come to pick up your pistol. We take that coupon, pull your receipt, pull your gun, verify the serial numbers are all correct on all forms, then hand you the 4473 form. You give us your NYSDL as well as your pistol permit with at least one showing your current physical address, you finish filling out the 4473, then we fill out our part of the same form. We then go to our computer, run your background check thru the NICS system, at which time we will receive one of three answers: Proceed, Delay, or Denied. If you are proceeded, you walk out the door with your firearm while we wish you a good day. If you are delayed, you do not leave with your firearm, and we start the waiting game. If you are proceeded anytime before 3 days are up, we call you and you can come pick up your firearm. If we do not receive a response within the 3 days, the NYS 30 day wait takes effect, then on the 31st day or shortly thereafter, you need to come back in, fill out another 4473, we run you again, and if you are delayed a second time this is when the Federal Brady Transfer Date takes effect. If we do not receive an answer from the NICS system by the Brady Transfer Date indicated on the Delay decision printout, we are, per Federal law, then allowed to transfer the firearm to you. (Since we are in the lovely state of NY, the 30 day waiting period required by law has already been satisfied and the 3 day Federal Brady date law then kicks in. This is why the 2nd check has to be run, to satisfy the Federal law...) If you are Denied, there are a couple of things you can do. Accept it, get your $ back on the firearm and hope the ATF doesn't come knocking wanting to know why you thought you could buy a gun when obviously you've got a past. Understand that it might be a mistake and you can fight it. To do that you will need the NTN (NICS Transaction Number) and log into the ATF website and dispute the decision. As far as why it is not allowed to run a background check before you plan to take possession of your firearm, we legally are not allowed to run a check until the actual date the transfer takes place. Of course there are exceptions, such as you've been delayed, but those are not very common. Just in the high volume of sales my main store does per day (a normal day lately is average $20,000), I get maybe one or two per week that were not picked up on the actual day the transfer was completed.
Now I understand some counties are different as far as the coupon process, but we are NEVER allowed to transfer a pistol to someone without a coupon either. Regardless of what county you are coming from. It states right on the coupon that it MUST be surrendered to the Transferee (us) upon receipt of the firearm. So, I'm not sure what is up with that as every coupon I've seen from our surrounding counties all say the same thing...? And that is a NYS thing, not a county thing... ? As far as running a background check immediately on a person that has just purchased a pistol and they are now waiting on an amendment, yeah, that's a no no. I will verify with my ATF contacts tomorrow, and I will call a few of them so I can get accurate information, but as far as how we've been doing it and how the ATF trained me in this whole process, the background checks cannot be run until the time of the actual transfer.
Hope this helps you guys and clears up any confusion!
Just message him back if you have any more questions or need clarification on anything and he will ask me.
Have a great night!
Kristy
Justincase
6.5 Creedmoor
^ That’s how every single purchase of a handgun I’ve ever made has gone. Buy gun at store or online, store or FFL gives me coupon, I take it to PPO to get gun added to permit, I go back to store or FFL, they run BGC, I get gun.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
There is no requirement to run a NICS check before giving a receipt.
The receipt indicates ownership. Not possession.
If I buy a gun from an out of state FFL, I can get my receipt as soon as the payment clears. If I order one online I can print it off 2 seconds after clicking "submit".
NICS only needs to be run when taking possession.
If I buy a gun as an investment and sell it again without ever taking possession, I *never* need the NICS.
I can print off the receipt and add the pistol to my permit without ever setting foot my FFL's shop, let alone running the NICS.
Russ Woody
.45 acp
Thank You for clearing this up Kristy!
Russ Woody
.45 acp
That is correct. I hear of all these amendment times and I wonder what in hell people are talking about. We just take our receipt to the County Clerk and walk out with the gun on our new license. I can actually have the FFL receipt in my possession while carrying the new gun and wait 9 days to put it on my permit.
Cattafly
.40 S&W
Kristy, where does it say or where is this law that says you can't run the check before gun is to be picked up and why is there a recertification line on the 4473? How would you handle this situation: Person buys gun and you give this person a receipt. They now go and put it on their permit and return to do 4473. It comes back denied. What do you do and is it your responsibility now to contact the clerk to let them know they put a gun on someones permit who was denied?
How do you know that after a 30 day wait and a new 4473 is filled out that the Brady law now kicks in? An ATF agent can't answer that because the Brady law is federal and the 30 day wait is a state law. As I previously said I contacted the state police in Albany and the best answer they could give me maybe or maybe not works that way. So I turned to the AG of NY, who is the chief law enforcer of NY, and asked for a clarification and as of yet have not received a response. I personally think you are right but who wants to be the first test case.
A background check is NEVER done without the person being present and yes they must possess a coupon before picking up the gun. You say in your store, well many stores have their own store policy as far as firearm or ammunition sales but most are in excess of the law and not the actual law.
The question at hand is, where is the law that says a NICS check can't be run before the buyer is going to take possession and why is there a recertification line on the 4473? The way you present this it is black and white so where is this written and what law covers this? You also stated you will get one of 3 responses, proceed, delayed or denied and that is true but you omit the fact that a delay can become an open. Not nitpicking but at that time the buyer is in NYS purgatory because an answer is rarely given at that point.
How do you know that after a 30 day wait and a new 4473 is filled out that the Brady law now kicks in? An ATF agent can't answer that because the Brady law is federal and the 30 day wait is a state law. As I previously said I contacted the state police in Albany and the best answer they could give me maybe or maybe not works that way. So I turned to the AG of NY, who is the chief law enforcer of NY, and asked for a clarification and as of yet have not received a response. I personally think you are right but who wants to be the first test case.
A background check is NEVER done without the person being present and yes they must possess a coupon before picking up the gun. You say in your store, well many stores have their own store policy as far as firearm or ammunition sales but most are in excess of the law and not the actual law.
The question at hand is, where is the law that says a NICS check can't be run before the buyer is going to take possession and why is there a recertification line on the 4473? The way you present this it is black and white so where is this written and what law covers this? You also stated you will get one of 3 responses, proceed, delayed or denied and that is true but you omit the fact that a delay can become an open. Not nitpicking but at that time the buyer is in NYS purgatory because an answer is rarely given at that point.
Cattafly
.40 S&W
Yep you are right as far as Livingston County goes but you still can't pick up the gun without a coupon and a NICS check. If you are never going to take possession as you are using it for an investment you are screwing the FFL over because they still have time, paperwork and have to store it for you. Do you plan on compensating them for that?
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
No wonder many have thrown their hands up and said screw it, the hassle isn't worth the effort.
Seems much easier to go see DeShawn on the corner of toity toid and toid, place your order and hang out for fifteen-twenty minutes, then be on your way.
Sad times.
Robin
Seems much easier to go see DeShawn on the corner of toity toid and toid, place your order and hang out for fifteen-twenty minutes, then be on your way.
Sad times.
Robin
pshift
.338 Win Mag
Westchester County is one of them. First you purchase. They hold it until you get your CCW permit. With the gun on your permit (still not in your possession), they have you go through the background check. Once past that, you get your new toy. It's a hassle but until they change or abolish the permitting laws and eliminate the "administrative restrictions' statewide (like PA), this will continue.
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spat
.700 Nitro Express
The question was about running a NICS before giving a receipt.
The rest of that is irrelevant.
NICS is only required on pick up. It is just a waste of everyone's time running it before that.
As for compensating the FFL for storing it, it was a hypothetical scenerio, but if you are forthright about what you're doing, the FFL could certainly decide what they want to charge for storage. Everything else, I assume they have a standard charge to process a transfer, and it's actually less work for them if you never take possession than if you pick it up.
dwa12479
.338 Win Mag
I'm in Monroe County, and I've never had a NICS check done before getting a bill of sale to take to the clerk. Ive always bought the gun first, taken the receipt to the clerk to have it added to my permit, then return to FFL to take transfer. The NICS is run then.
Every gun store I’ve ever purchased a handgun from has been doing it wrong then?
Shit I'm like 99% sure the last handgun I bought, my FFL e-mailed me my receipt to bring to the PP office and have it added to my license then I showed up and did my BGC and walked with my G34.
Hell I have even talked to other FFLs in the past who are a good distance away about buying a handgun but not wanting to ship it but don't want to make 17 trips to deal with the paperwork.
And they said they'd just email me the receipt to take to my permit office and then come pick up the pistol when I can
And they said they'd just email me the receipt to take to my permit office and then come pick up the pistol when I can
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
I didn't realize how confusing it can be from county to county. Saddens me really, I can remember just buying a gun, no forms no background check, just buy it like any other article of goods you might desire, and you could buy ammo in gas stations, hardware stores, even some grocery stores.
If you hadn't lived in such an environment of freedom you just don't realize how far we have fallen, how much paid for in blood Liberty we have lost.
Robin
If you hadn't lived in such an environment of freedom you just don't realize how far we have fallen, how much paid for in blood Liberty we have lost.
Robin
thegatman
.308 Win
Interesting turn of events recently. I went to pick up a pistol and filled out the form. Form asked for full middle name. My license only had an initial. FFL said to send him a picture of my passport with my middle name spelled out. He said ATF is cracking down. Never had a problem before.