Deadly force

[Criticalt]

You would prefer to risk jail time and a massive legal bill ? Those are your only 2 options. Your only question is which you feel luckier about.

No, there is at least one other option.
The way this guy was acting, there is a good chance he has a violent reputation if not a record of assault.
If he has a violent history and there are no witnesses, a DA may not take action.
It happened here in JT a few years ago with a lawful self defense shooting.

 

[Marine Cpl]

An let's say he pounds you to the ground and discovers your gun.

I don't know if I would have shot or not but I definitely would not fight an obvious deranged lunatic.

 

[spat]

No, there is at least one other option.
The way this guy was acting, there is a good chance he has a violent reputation if not a record of assault.
If he has a violent history and there are no witnesses, a DA may not take action.
It happened here in JT a few years ago with a lawful self defense shooting.

That's just getting lucky on the legal side, you can't count on that when you pull the trigger.

Guy could have a a glass jaw and drop first time you hit him too. That would be getting lucky on the physical side.

The best option is for him to decide he doesn't want an assault charge for hitting you when you stand in front of the girlfriend and he just beats his chest runs his mouth and gets back in his truck. That's getting lucky in general.

 

[Justincase]

I don't know. I find it hard to believe that you would get jammed up for brandishing against or shooting the aggressor when it is obvious that HE had malintent i.e. he stopped the truck when he could've kept going, the "victims" were many yards away from said truck illustrating the asshole was being the aggressor and you retreated as reasonably expected. You don't need to be attacked by multiple people, or solely by an armed attacker to use deadly force. If it can be reasonably believed that you feared for your life or grave bodily injury of you or your companion, deadly force is justified. Even in N.Y.

 

[spat]

I don't know. I find it hard to believe that you would get jammed up for brandishing against or shooting the aggressor when it is obvious that HE had malintent i.e. he stopped the truck when he could've kept going, the "victims" were many yards away from said truck illustrating the asshole was being the aggressor and you retreated as reasonably expected. You don't need to be attacked by multiple people, or solely by an armed attacker to use deadly force. If it can be reasonably believed that you feared for your life or grave bodily injury of you or your companion, deadly force is justified. Even in N.Y.

You are correct. Just don't expect it to go that easy in court. You could get completely jammed up over an obviously justified shooting, or you could get lucky over something that you really should have been sent to prison for. I would not make that decision based on expecting to get lucky in court.

 

[masterswimmer]

No, there is at least one other option.
The way this guy was acting, there is a good chance he has a violent reputation if not a record of assault.
If he has a violent history and there are no witnesses, a DA may not take action.
It happened here in JT a few years ago with a lawful self defense shooting.

Wow, that's one HUGE 'if' to hang your defense upon.

I stand by my first recommendation, report the incident to the local PD.

 

[spat]

An let's say he pounds you to the ground and discovers your gun.

I don't know if I would have shot or not but I definitely would not fight an obvious deranged lunatic.

The way it was presented, those are your choices. He's coming at you, do you draw and fire, or draw and not fire, or not draw (I suppose you could tell the GF she was on her own and run, but that's never an option IMHO). Can't say what I'd do either, but I can say that if I decided to draw he would have about 2 seconds to change his behavior drastically.

 

[spat]

Wow, that's one HUGE 'if' to hang your defense upon.

I stand by my first recommendation, report the incident to the local PD.

Report the incident is obvious, but it isn't an answer about what to do *right then*.

 

[masterswimmer]

Report the incident is obvious, but it isn't an answer about what to do *right then*.

I was responding to Criticalt's post below.

No, there is at least one other option.
The way this guy was acting, there is a good chance he has a violent reputation if not a record of assault.
If he has a violent history and there are no witnesses, a DA may not take action.
It happened here in JT a few years ago with a lawful self defense shooting.

 

[spat]

You could just try to out crazy him LOL

 

[Jem45472]

An let's say he pounds you to the ground and discovers your gun.

I don't know if I would have shot or not but I definitely would not fight an obvious deranged lunatic.

I had a situation similar to this posted at nyf. Commencing to fight is not an option while you are armed. Bad guy gets gun and bad things can happen.

In this situation I would be retreating, and if followed, I would draw by the time he gets to 15 yards or so. Come any closer and I'm going to shoot.

 

[FrankenCub]

It's been a while since I read pc35 so I don't recall for sure, but isn't NY a 'duty to retreat' state? That could complicate issues some.

 

[Jem45472]

It's been a while since I read pc35 so I don't recall for sure, but isn't NY a 'duty to retreat' state? That could complicate issues some.

2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person
under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or
about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the
actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with
complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the
necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no
duty to retreat if he or she is:
(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police
officer or a peace officer at the latter`s direction, acting pursuant to
section 35.30; or
(b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal
sexual act or robbery; or
(c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that
the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of
section 35.20.


In short, if you feel the attacker is about to use deadly physical force and are unable to retreat, you are clear.

 

[FrankenCub]

2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person
under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or
about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the
actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with
complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the
necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no
duty to retreat if he or she is:
(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police
officer or a peace officer at the latter`s direction, acting pursuant to
section 35.30; or
(b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal
sexual act or robbery; or
(c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that
the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of
section 35.20.


In short, if you feel the attacker is about to use deadly physical force and are unable to retreat, you are clear.

Thanks for the refresher Jem. So looking like roadside confrontation Criticalt would be expected by LEOs to retreat or would otherwise expect to be prosecuted. Then again, I guess the prosecutor could be forced to prove that the aggressor wasn't going to rape his wife. Dead men don't talk.
Sketchy situation all the way around.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Thanks for the refresher Jem. So looking like roadside confrontation Criticalt would be expected by LEOs to retreat or would otherwise expect to be prosecuted. Then again, I guess the prosecutor could be forced to prove that the aggressor wasn't going to rape his wife. Dead men don't talk.
Sketchy situation all the way around.

Dead men don't talk. It can't get any truther than that.

 

[Jem45472]

Thanks for the refresher Jem. So looking like roadside confrontation Criticalt would be expected by LEOs to retreat or would otherwise expect to be prosecuted. Then again, I guess the prosecutor could be forced to prove that the aggressor wasn't going to rape his wife. Dead men don't talk.
Sketchy situation all the way around.

Like I posted a few posts up, I would attempt to retreat. If followed, I would draw, the rest is up to the aggressor.

 

[spat]

Dead men don't talk. It can't get any truther than that.

Well, it's an affirmative defense, so it's on you as the defendant to prove that you reasonably believed the rape was coming.

If the DA is friendly, OP would probably be fine, but if the DA has a bone to pick, you could be in some deep shit.

 

[dubleuhb]

So where are you supposed to retreat to in a situation like that? Turn and run? Run to where? What if you're a bit of a lard ass and running is not an option?
What if you're not a big dude and a guy that size comes at you? Do you take a chance that you can take a couple blows before you draw?

The problem is all the variables you have to consider.....in a couple seconds, then if you do end up using deadly force you have to hope the DA is not an overzealous prick and tries to make an example out of you, then the next time a similar situation happens to someone else that then runs through their mind.
Uhhhg, people suck.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

I had a situation similar to this posted at nyf. Commencing to fight is not an option while you are armed. Bad guy gets gun and bad things can happen.

In this situation I would be retreating, and if followed, I would draw by the time he gets to 15 yards or so. Come any closer and I'm going to shoot.

I agree with @Jem45472 on this. I also had a pretty similar incident happen to me about a month after I got my CCW that I detailed at nyf. (2 guys with a chained pit bull in a pickup threatened me when I had just taken my gun off before shoveling snow).

I'm not at all willing to let anyone punch or assault me for sake of making my defense case at trial. If they're threatening my life, and coming at me, I'll retreat while verbally warning them to stop, and getting my firearm ready to pull from concealment.

I'm too old and slow to run for it. If they keep coming at me at that point, I'm pulling and firing before they can close the gap and reach me.

 

[spat]

I agree with @Jem45472 on this. I also had a pretty similar incident happen to me about a month after I got my CCW that I detailed at nyf. (2 guys with a chained pit bull in a pickup threatened me when I had just taken my gun off before shoveling snow).

I'm not at all willing to let anyone punch or assault me for sake of making my defense case at trial. If they're threatening my life, and coming at me, I'll retreat while verbally warning them to stop, and getting my firearm ready to pull from concealment.

I'm too old and slow to run for it. If they keep coming at me at that point, I'm pulling and firing before they can close the gap and reach me.

If you're older or slower, or outnumbered ( i.e. disparity of force), or they actually have deadly force (weapons) available, that changes things significantly.

I'm not willing to spend years in prison, or tens of thousands of dollars on lawyers to avoid a couple punches.

 

[Acer-m14]

how are you to retreat from a truck over the white line ?? do we really have to ?? ..

i'm think you need to get some commands down with your partner when your neck hair stands up .. RECORD!!! .. get that cell phone out ..
stand between her and the asshole since your the only one carrying ..

i seen in pre post mention of brandishing .. just what is the charge ? but i got video of his driving too ?? ..

i'm only 5'3 a buck 50 .. if i was carrying i would have drawn at the ready .,., and take the chance .. i can't run .. copd would drop me ..

i'm glad where i'm at and what i do i don't have to deal with this yet .. all i can carry is a rifle or shotgun ... buts it always close by ..

 

[VietnamEraVet]

If you're older or slower, or outnumbered ( i.e. disparity of force), or they actually have deadly force (weapons) available, that changes things significantly.

I'm not willing to spend years in prison, or tens of thousands of dollars on lawyers to avoid a couple punches.

Personally,- I'm done taking punches. I've been in enough fights when I was much younger, and one time I was mugged by 4 guys who put me in the hospital, almost blinding me in the process.

No more. I absolutely will NOT start things with someone or provoke anyone. But if you come after me, as Paul Harvey used to say: "stand by for news".

 

[Jem45472]

Personally,- I'm done taking punches. I've been in enough fights when I was much younger, and one time I was mugged by 4 guys who put me in the hospital, almost blinding me in the process.

No more. I absolutely will NOT start things with someone or provoke anyone. But if you come after me, stand by.

I agree, there is no need to take punches. It's in the papers nearly every year how a punch kills someone. Rare, but a chance I'm not taking any more. When I was younger, sure, not worth it now. And as @Acer-m14 pointed out, some can't just run away. A video of you trying to walk away from this situation would be all that's needed if you ask me.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

I agree, there is no need to take punches. It's in the papers nearly every year how a punch kills someone. Rare, but a chance I'm not taking any more. When I was younger, sure, not worth it now. And as @Acer-m14 pointed out, some can't just run away. A video of you trying to walk away from this situation would be all that's needed if you ask me.

Two situations where I can definitely see shooting:

1. Someone threatening my life and charging toward me as I try to retreat. I will be drawing and shooting before they can close the distance. (Hopefully...)
2. If I am suddenly and visciously physically attacked, my gun will be pulled and brought to bear on my attacker.

 

[Airborneguy]

Strangely long conversation considering what actually happened is the best course of action and outcome.

 

[dsdmmat]

Strangely long conversation considering what actually happened is the best course of action and outcome.

The difference between meat eaters and weed eaters is very apparent.

 

[Criticalt]

It's been a while since I read pc35 so I don't recall for sure, but isn't NY a 'duty to retreat' state? That could complicate issues some.

Yes it is but can this guy run twice as fast as my GF?
I could catch her with a 50 yard head start. Im 46 years old, this guy was in his 20s.
We had no place to retreat to.
Also, if he got in his truck, I would not be here posting. Just open fields and shrubs for 400-500 yards.
Also, if hes running full speed at me, after saying he was going to kill me, there is no duty to retreat.
Im not turning my back on a lunatic hell bent on violence.

 

[dsdmmat]

Yes it is but can this guy run twice as fast as my GF?
I could catch her with a 50 yard head start. Im 46 years old, this guy was in his 20s.
We had no place to retreat to.
Also, if he got in his truck, I would not be here posting. Just open fields and shrubs for 400-500 yards.
Also, if hes running full speed at me, after saying he was going to kill me, there is no duty to retreat.
Im not turning my back on a lunatic hell bent on violence.

He already attempted to harm you by the way he was driving forcing you to get out of his way.

 

[MilesTeg]

He already attempted to harm you by the way he was driving forcing you to get out of his way.

I think the more dangerous situation is him stopping the vehicle and approaching the people he almost hit. It would be pretty easy in my opinion to articulate you felt threatened for your life. Bad driving is bad driving, but exiting the vehicle to confront pedestrians is an oblivious aggressive move with the very possible threat to human life.

 

[dsdmmat]

I think the more dangerous situation is him stopping the vehicle and approaching the people he almost hit. It would be pretty easy in my opinion to articulate you felt threatened for your life. Bad driving is bad driving, but exiting the vehicle to confront pedestrians is an oblivious aggressive move with the very possible threat to human life.

Very true, definitely establishes a pattern.