don't forget the 4473s are kept on file for 30 years and go to the ATF if the FFL closes shop too. The only good thing about that is all those paper copies will take an army of ATF agents years to go through.
Delay (NICS/Background Check)
- Thread starter Jams419
- Start date
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
Yeah except if memory serves, a few years ago they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar- they were trying to (or actually were, I think) digitize those records, which is the "database" they're expressly forbidden from creating as a matter of law.
Oh also- having done some work with feds in the past- they have NO PROBLEM throwing an army of people at a problem and in fact that tends to be their preferred solution. I worked with a monitoring team that was tasked with going thru phone records every month- they put like 4-5 GS-14's on it every month, rather than requesting the data electronically from the companies, or at least scanning and ocr'ing them.
well maybe the first Law Enforcement/ police agency to be defunded should be the BATFE.
Right
But my only other option is to not be a gun owner at all.
Without the UPIN my odds of being denied again would be very high. Then another long wait and hope for another positive outcome.
With all the technology....smartphones, apps, passwords...etc.......and the "lists", the government knows us very well.
I completely agree with you but id rather have my guns than try to stay off ONE of the many lists im on.
Delayed again? If you were denied they would come after you as a prohibited person. OR were you illegally denied and got it worked out through the court system? This is another reason to do 80% guns. So the wrongful delaying of a right can no longer happen. Which is exactly why NY is trying to make it illegal to make your own guns.
Yes, I agree with you about this, my FFL told me I’m the only one he has ever seen get denied with a UPIN. Also, just like you, I lost my rights for over 2 years because of a false denial. It took me 28 months and literally and act of Congress to get mine back. Got my denial overturned and a UPIN within 2 weeks after speaking with my congressman. Unbelievable and it shouldn’t be that way. And I believe the appeal process is online now so it should be “relatively “ quick for anyone not just UPIN holders, correct? Anyways, all my purchases were a few minutes or less all the time from that point on until the last 2, then denials. One, I appealed in less than a week, the other I appealed, but within 10 days it went from denied to proceed. But after all I went through to get my right back, it’s still like a shot in the balls with a bat.
Its a long story ive told before but in short.
Nobody knows for sure if I was rightly or wringly denied.....eventually NYS said I was good to go.
I was denied because of a "NYS disqualifier", I was GTG with the feds.
I had a "4th degree criminal possession of a weapon" conviction from when I was 18 years old.
I had been buying guns for nearly 30 years and had my NYS pistol permit and 1 pistol purchase with this conviction.
At some point NYS expanded its "serious misdemeanor" definition as it relates to gun ownership.
I guess I got caught in that scenario. NYS never said that was the case.
I hired an attorney who found that the charge I was found guilty of has 2 distinct versions.
The first is using the weapon in a threatening manner.
The second is just possessing the weapon.
When threatening while in possession is up to a year in jail and a fine.
The simple possession is a $100 fine.
My case was the simple possession and $100 fine.
I had a switchblade in my car that I bought in PA and had no idea it was illegal. A cop saw it during a traffic stop.
Anyways, I just got a "Certificate Of Relief" for the conviction and NYS said I was good to go, the feds never denied me.
As far as the being a prohibited person after a firearm denial......thats not exactly how it works.
I was worried about this so I contacted an attorney and the NYSP. Both said I could keep my guns and continue to carry as long as my apoeal was ongoing.
I called the NYSP because I had to recertify my PP per the 5 year Safe Act law......while I was appeal8ng my denial. The NYSP said I was fine and to just recertify. I did and it went fine.
A denial will still take years.
As of right now, NICS is processing appeals from August of 2019.
So if youre denied today, no human will look at your case for over a year. Then it takes forever for that process.
No infringement here.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
What's that old saying about "a right delayed... "?
While going through the process I learned that over 70% of NICS denials are wrongfully applied.....even with a social security number. That is unacceptable in my opinion.
Trump said he would fix all this. The Republicans had free reign to do this from 2016-2018 but did nothing.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
The fact that someone flat out told you that is ballsy.
This is an executive branch agency implementing laws enacted by Congress. Congress unneeded to fix this.
Wheres the executive order?
ProgSpear
.338 Win Mag
We need Don and Eric to work on their Dad about this. Hey guys? If you’re lurking out there, would you talk to your Dad for us? I plan on voting for him anyway, but if you could help us out it would really seal the deal.
@Jchrisls did you put down your social security number?
Asking as sometimes people don't put the SS# down as it says optional but it can help identify you to NICS and not get you mixed up with someone who might have your same name. When people ask me if they should put it down I always say yes as it can help. Even on the NICS website when you do the check it is optional but I always use it. Wonder if Walmart puts it in when they do the check.
What concerns me is that your check is staying open. I have been doing NICS checks for a few years now and I have only seen one person's check stay in the open status. I have seen a shitton of delays but usually NICS comes back in a few days. I had a guy get delayed last Saturday and the check came back by early Monday morning. I was able to give him the gun on Monday.
The New York State law about the 30 day thing is if the delay doesn't come back. It is not get a delay and then wait 30 days if it comes back proceed within the 30 days the person gets the gun. It has been that way since the law was signed.
Don't buy from Walmart they really don't know what they are doing. I am pretty sure they go to the NICS check site from a portal in their intranet and the average employee there struggles with it. Find a local gun shop as they usually know the laws better and you are helping local business.
Asking as sometimes people don't put the SS# down as it says optional but it can help identify you to NICS and not get you mixed up with someone who might have your same name. When people ask me if they should put it down I always say yes as it can help. Even on the NICS website when you do the check it is optional but I always use it. Wonder if Walmart puts it in when they do the check.
What concerns me is that your check is staying open. I have been doing NICS checks for a few years now and I have only seen one person's check stay in the open status. I have seen a shitton of delays but usually NICS comes back in a few days. I had a guy get delayed last Saturday and the check came back by early Monday morning. I was able to give him the gun on Monday.
The New York State law about the 30 day thing is if the delay doesn't come back. It is not get a delay and then wait 30 days if it comes back proceed within the 30 days the person gets the gun. It has been that way since the law was signed.
Don't buy from Walmart they really don't know what they are doing. I am pretty sure they go to the NICS check site from a portal in their intranet and the average employee there struggles with it. Find a local gun shop as they usually know the laws better and you are helping local business.
Celt
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Not sure if this has been addressed, but thats not my understanding of the law. The way I understood it, as well as several ffls i deal with, is that the 30 day rule replaced the 3 day rule. After that time frame expires you can take your purchased property. And i dont remeber reading anything about an automatic 30 day hold on a delay if you get a proceed prior to the 30 days.
It is all about the check staying in an open status not about it coming back as a proceed within 30 days. An open status is when the check doesn’t come back with any response after a delay.
That is the whole thing about the 30 days.
The feds say that if the check doesn’t come back after 3 business days you can transfer.
New York says that you have to wait 30 business days now.
Here is the key:
When a person gets delayed and the proceed comes in they have to sign the form again “Recertifying” that the information is still correct when the check was done. The person is recertifying the original check. Since a check expires in 30 days(not BUSINESS days) you can’t recertify that original check after 30 days. Hence the person is stuck in a loop taking NICS checks until a response comes back.
That is the whole thing about the 30 days.
The feds say that if the check doesn’t come back after 3 business days you can transfer.
New York says that you have to wait 30 business days now.
Here is the key:
When a person gets delayed and the proceed comes in they have to sign the form again “Recertifying” that the information is still correct when the check was done. The person is recertifying the original check. Since a check expires in 30 days(not BUSINESS days) you can’t recertify that original check after 30 days. Hence the person is stuck in a loop taking NICS checks until a response comes back.
Proceed prior you are right. But if you don't get that the NICS can expire before the sate releases you from the 30 day clock. It opens the door for the process to go on and on and on and on.
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
The system must really be jammed up. My kid in Pennsylvania says two local gun shops won't even do a simple transfer. I guess it ties them up too long.
Eliminate this shit.
Robin
Eliminate this shit.
Robin
Celt
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Even if you do not get a proceed, after 30 days you may take possession of the firearm ( just as it was prior to this law except it was only 3 days). Only if you receive a denial can you not take possession of it. I have attached a section of the law because I had to look it up to make sure I was correct.
"In addition, the section provides that before a dealer who consents to conduct a national instant criminal background check delivers a firearm, rifle or shotgun to any person, either (i) NICS has issued a "proceed" response to the dealer, or (ii) thirty calendar days shall have elapsed since the date the dealer contacted NICS to initiate a national instant criminal back- ground check and NICS has not notified the dealer that the transfer of the firearm, rifle or shotgun to such person should be denied."
Bill Search and Legislative Information | New York State Assembly
News and Information from the New York State Assembly
nyassembly.gov
The way it has been explained to me by the FFL is that after 30 days there is no longer a case in NICS and that is the reason for the need to go through the check again. That is why I am now on my second day of the second check for the same lower.
Might be, but some/most FFL's are not doing it that way. There is member here who can attest to a 3 year nonstop delay before Trump 's staff took care of it. Another just attested to several months. FFL's are going to go the way of caution. Just like a lot of FFL's won't transfer an "other" even though it may be legal.
Also after 30 days you federally need another NICS check so NY 30 day will start over again with another delay from NICS. As stated, you can be in a non-stop process.
Joe Blow
.45 acp
Wrong... A NICS check is valid for 30 days from the date is was run through the system whether the return is a proceed or delay. If the transaction does not take place on that same day, the buyer (transferee) can still take possession of the firearm up to 30 days later but simply has to sign the 4473 on an additional line stating that there have been no changes since he / she initially filled out the form. On that 30th day, with a delay and no response from NICS, the transaction can legally take place. Your FFL sounds like an asshole. Even if it were the 31st or 32nd day with no NICS response, things can be made proper. Find an FFL that has a clue...
Joe Blow
.45 acp
Wrong... On that 30th day the transaction can take place. Just like it could've after 3 business days prior to this 30 NY wait with a delay nonsense.
Celt
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Sounds like that ffl is misinformed.
Celt
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I dont think thats accurate, but I do agree there are plenty of ffls that are clueless. And the member with 3 year issue is @Criticalt and i thought that was an denial, not a delay.
Unfortunately, misinformed our not I have not choice but to deal with them at this point. They have my FFL transfer, I also have been waiting on them to finish the second lower that I ordered 2 1/2 months ago. I have already had enough experience with them that I will not be a returning customer after ordering their lower that was listed as "in stock" but I am still waiting for it to be made. That part is a different rant though.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The 3 day rule is federal and has not changed.
You will never get an answer from the feds after day 3 because the answer automatically became "proceed" when the clock ticked over in day 3. The feds have closed their investigation and forgotten about it entirely.
The feds also have a 30 day rule, your NICS check expires and is no longer valid after 30 days so you will need a new one.
The NYS 30 day rule and is new. There wasn't a previous rule for it to replace.
The combination of the 2 rules has the effect that there is no automatic proceed if they do not give you an answer.
Feds say proceed after 3 days, but NY says you have to wait 30.
Feds say if you wait 30 you need to run a new check.
Ive had a delay on probably the last 5 long guns i purchased... however by the time i got in my car and drove 10 min home iwas getting a call from my LGS that my check had gone through ... only once did it take more than an hour. The owner of the shop said its usually someone with the same name that probably has a criminal record. I was going to start the process for my UPIN until i saw the paperwork looks pretty much identical to a pistol application ( fingerprinting, etc.)... so ill just deal with the delay if it comes
Celt
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I see the point now. So the only way around it is for someone to sue the state over this.
Elapsed is the key word here, Day 30 has not elapsed until 12:00 midnight then it is day 31 a new NICS is then needed. They knew just what they were doing writing this law!
My checks take around 15 minutes and I thought that was long. I thought back in the day when the 4473 was a yellow form and the guy behind the counter had to call it in on the phone that it only took a couple of minutes. I could be wrong though. That was a long time ago.