Feelings and sentimental BS
Despite a mother’s plea, her mentally ill daughter was sold a firearm. Here’s why she sued.
Despite a mother’s plea, her mentally ill daughter was sold a firearm. Here’s why she sued.
Despite a mother’s plea, her mentally ill daughter was sold a firearm. Here’s why she sued.
- Thread starter Phauxtoe
- Start date
Rbuske
.38 Special
Seems like the parents should have tried to get her help when they felt the need to take her first pistol. By the manager openly admitting she seemed nervous you would think it would raise a red flag if he knew about the call from the mother. Although in the end I agreed he had no legal grounds to deny the sale. in this day and age I think at some point common sense has to come in to play.
I thought Dealers/shops/FFLs had the right to deny sales to anyone for an circumstance they felt were questionable. If the seller thought there were "red flags" the sale should have been denied. That said this being the post I don't belive the facts of the story, nor even if it is anything but a story.
LexLooter
.40 S&W
Better not let my Fiancee read this. She'll get an idea and call all the gun shops in town and keep me from blowing the wedding money.
Are those the same gun shops that you have your wedding registry ?
His and hers duck guns
His and hers engraved 1911's
Isn't hers digital camo
Steal2B
.700 Nitro Express
The daughters estate has equal or better grounds to Sue the mother who failed to prevent a tragedy she believed to be imminent but only weakly intervened ineffectively passing her moral responsibility on to others. She had insights that strangers would be clueless about. If they were intellectually honest the Brady bunch, the Bloomberg gang, the Mad mothers, and Mark Kelly's clan should go after her windfall for the children who also could have been a victim. If the linked article is correct, the mother owns much of the responsibility of this tragedy and sadly she should not profit from this. Would this same mother Sue if the shop failed to provide a sale for legally entitled defense and her daughter soon fell victim to a violent murder unable to protect herself.....sounds like she would.
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ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
And still, not a peep about the disaster that is the mental health treatment system in this country. We need to fix that before we even consider tying it to gun rights. At the moment, mental health is mostly handled by regular hospitals who have neither the expertise nor the facilities to properly treat people. Patients get held until they are deemed "stable" - sometimes this is a day or two but more commonly it's just hours. They get walked to the exit with virtually no long term treatment or plan. And so they return weeks or days later to get the exact same "treatment". It goes on and on until the tragedy happens. We need to do better.
Trying to tie mental health to gun rights without fixing the mental health system leads to situations like what is happening in this state. People voluntarily receive treatment, often treatment that is only tangentially related to mental health and NY strips their civil right to gun ownership. Over the last 4 years NY has averaged well over 100,000 submissions PER YEAR to the FBI prohibited persons database. These people no longer pass a NICS check and there is NO way that all of these submissions are valid.
Trying to tie mental health to gun rights without fixing the mental health system leads to situations like what is happening in this state. People voluntarily receive treatment, often treatment that is only tangentially related to mental health and NY strips their civil right to gun ownership. Over the last 4 years NY has averaged well over 100,000 submissions PER YEAR to the FBI prohibited persons database. These people no longer pass a NICS check and there is NO way that all of these submissions are valid.
Mr. terzmo
.308 Win
call the gun store but not the police ?/....OR...the authority that permitted the permit?? Tragic event but fingering the store alone is the easy way
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
This is a problem with data modeling and federal law. When you do a form it asks if you were ever hospitalized. But it's kind of the honor system; as the hospitals, psychiatrists, and pharmacies don't report to the BATFE. If someone in Congress pushed for funding so there could be a full data model of all the components of who a person is and designated which agency owned the parent data model; and if all the hospitals, psychiatrists, doctors, VA and military archive systems, and pharmacists were required to feed the data model from their own databases then when a background check is done it would be much more accurate with regard to those 15 or so questions that get asked. I think the slippery slope is that if all these databases all pool together into a parent database is this a violation of privacy? From an FFL holder standpoint; they rely on that background check to tell them if they should or should not sell the firearm. They need to be able to trust those background checks better. With all of the billions Congress spends each year on data modeling federal departments for the implementation of SAP; you would think that they could cough up a few billion more to model a mental health system that BATFE could pull from. Maybe the owner of the database could be Dept of HHS and then BATFE (Dept of Treasury, I believe?) could be a child feed off HHS. If I were that mom, I would sue Congress. And her contention should be that most departments have already modeled their processes and their data model; and yet BATFE never tried to do that. That's negligence on the part of the Treasury Secretary and their director of information systems.
pjzwtl
.308 Win
Always easier to blame others for ones short comings. With that said if the dude had a bad feeling (those are called instincts follow them) he shouldn't have made the sale and definitely shouldn't be admitting to having a bad feeling about it. Either way I don't see why the shop should be held responsible for a lawful transaction.
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
That's part of a data model. The artifacts of that model should include DSM-V (all axis models). Then require patient visits to include a proper DSM-V diagnosis, and that diagnoses must mandatorily feed a national patient health database owned by HHS (perhaps CDC). I worked on the CDC model for the Pandemic Flu (PanFlu) systems called VTraCKs and VODS. CDC has the infrastructure and data center security to easily hold such an encrypted database. The only component that would be a pain in the ass is that each MD, DO, Pschologist / Psychiatrist, and Pharmacy would have to enter data. But on VODS and VTraCKS we made an internet portal with token security. Give each treatment location an RSA token so the system can't be hacked (or even biometric fingerprint or eye scan USB devices). WE had 80,000 MD's and 1,000 hospitals reporting into VODS via the internet (SAP Enterprise Portal) - it's not rocket science.
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
I bet they targeted the seller just because the shop had good insurance. The ambulance chasers always take this approach called "deepest pocket". They cannot sue the owner of the databases for those background checks without permission from the federal government itself (you can't sue city hall) - so they go after the guy with the store since he probably has a few million in liability insurance. This mother doesn't want to effect change - she wants to make a buck off the dead carcass.
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
Walmart made me show my carry permit to buy ammo last week. This world is getting weird. A carry permit for 45 ACP ammo from Winchester? Really?
Horrible story indeed. No one is to blame in this except the gun owner. Nothing, except the crime she committed, was done wrong.
Even if the store had stopped this sale, she already owned one.
Janet Delana was desperate to stop her mentally ill adult daughter from buying another handgun.
Even if the store had stopped this sale, she already owned one.
Janet Delana was desperate to stop her mentally ill adult daughter from buying another handgun.
The dumbest post of the day.
Just curious...
Why would you say this? Is it because you think suicide is wrong or is that the statement does not belong with the story?
It's a blanket statement that would be ridiculous in many instances even if one believes there are certain circumstances that make suicide an option.
Okay, just curious in which direction you were going.
ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
The bigger problem is that there is no due process in the middle of all this data sharing. That's exactly what NY is fucking up. Doc, nurse, social worker, fucking janitor (for all we know) tags your record with a mental health code and no more guns for you. Once that code goes up-line to the county, they're coming to take your guns, you won't pass a NICS check and there isn't a damn thing you can do except hire a lawyer and fight to get your civil rights restored. Nobody cares that you're just battling insomnia; until you shell out for a lawyer, you're treated the same as a schizo with homicidal delusions.
ETA: Did I miss something? She executed her father and "couldn't bring [her]self to" pull the trigger on herself. She's a fucking murderer, not a suicide victim.
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pjzwtl
.308 Win
Bingo I would also love more info on the back story of this family. There maybe nothing there but maybe there is.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Who gets to decide what circumstances are acceptable ?
I support allowing someone to die with dignity, and I can't imagine how bad the world would be if you had to apply to the government for the equivalent to a "suicide permit".
Anyone who really wants out can get out.
The only thing you will prevent are people who are "attempting" it as a cry for help/attention and accidentally succeed. Better to just get them the help without them needing to go there.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
So, the mom thought she had murderous intent, but if only she was prevented from buying a gun from a retail establishment she would just let it go ?
More likely she would have woken up next to a man with the families largest kitchen knife in his chest.
LexLooter
.40 S&W
This isn't a bad idea. She'd kill for some more camping gear!
Most of the suicides don't involve terminally ill or dying people, they also don't involve a government ban. If a teen age girl wants to jump of a bridge, because her boyfriend broke up with her, should one physically stop her or let her make that choice.
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
In a modeling exercise, they would [theoretically] model the process and the data (data model, support model, process model, service model). So they would have to model the whole process so there were checks and balances, such that an error in a DSM-V code could be contested. The whole thing needs to be thought through by greater minds than ours; but I think we can all agree that it would be nice if shit like Sandy Hook never happened again. There are people that should be armed, people that should not be armed, and a clearly broken process determining the who and what of the situation. There are already laws on the books to keep felons and mentally defective nutjobs from getting their hands on weapons; but obviously the laws are not working as designed.
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
That's a tough question; but my gut says try and stop her.
Changed the thread title to the name of the linked article simply because..well, the title "Pure Bullshit !" (regardless of how appropriate or not of a response to its content) isn't especially descriptive to what it's about.
