Do old guns become dangerous due to metal deterioration ?

[CaseHardened]

There seems to be a general consensus that old Damascus Barrel shotguns should not be fired.

The barrels were made from individual strips, would around a mandrel, and welded (not by electricity, but by hammers and heat). After many years the welds can deteriorate, and even when they appear sound, are not.

Also, I have read that the wonderfully collectible Merwin Hulbert pistols, although expensive when new, used inferior steel. And are also dangerous to fire, if anyone should be so foolish as to actually shoot anything so valuable.

 

[CaseHardened]

Damascus Barrels can be very beautiful...

(not mine)

 

[spat]

Most of these cases aren't metal deteriorating, they are standards changing.

Modern ammo produces higher pressures than the old guns are "safe" handling. Also, our idea of what's "safe" has changed, and something that was once considered an acceptable risk no longer is.

The Damascus barrels may be an exception due to the construction technique. Unlike a monolithic barrel made from a single piece of steel, these can develop internal corrosion along grain boundaries if the forge welding wasn't perfect.

 

[Saltwater60]

Most of these cases aren't metal deteriorating, they are standards changing.

Modern ammo produces higher pressures than the old guns are "safe" handling. Also, our idea of what's "safe" has changed, and something that was once considered an acceptable risk no longer is.

The Damascus barrels may be an exception due to the construction technique. Unlike a monolithic barrel made from a single piece of steel, these can develop internal corrosion along grain boundaries if the forge welding wasn't perfect.

This is my understanding as well that the changes in pressure is what causes the failures. Proper welds should deteriorate IMO since they should be welded. A weld is metal melting to other metal. Now could there be issues with the weld originally sure.

 

[CaseHardened]

Metal can change with age - I think.

On a molecular level, the grain structure can change - I think.

These factors are not always associated with corrosion - I think.

Anyhow, that is why I am asking.

Other than actual oxidation, I don't really understand why metal would deteriorate.

Yes, obviously, using Smokeless Powder in a Black Powder firearm would be a disaster.

But there are cases where even using the proper powder can cause a failure. A failure that cannot be attributed to obvious corrosion, nor wear - I think.

Of course, I truly doubt this would be an issue with anything manufactured post WWI.

But earlier firearms just might be susceptible to a host of metallurgical issues - I think.

 

[spat]

This is my understanding as well that the changes in pressure is what causes the failures. Proper welds should deteriorate IMO since they should be welded. A weld is metal melting to other metal. Now could there be issues with the weld originally sure.

You are generally correct about the welds, but these aren’t modern welds we're talking about. These are forge welds made by hand in what would now be considered primitive conditions.

They are also far more extensive welds, all those lines that create the beautiful patterns are also discontinuities in the material.

 

[Saltwater60]

You are generally correct about the welds, but these aren’t modern welds we're talking about. These are forge welds made by hand in what would now be considered primitive conditions.

They are also far more extensive welds, all those lines that create the beautiful patterns are also discontinuities in the material.

Correct and I agree but if they are all done correctly there should be no issues per say.

I’m certainly no expert at all on this but I have watched forge in fire. I have don’t a bit of research on this and this was the general consensus from what I read. I’m sure the steel back then wasn’t as pure and there are likely many impurities in the metal that could and would cause metal failure or failure to weld properly. That’s my guess.

I think kev should weigh in on this since it seems right up his alley.

 

[Acer-m14]

@kev74 and even @Robin got ya back @Saltwater60 lol add the @ next time lol ..

 

[CaseHardened]

Not exactly my question, but the internet is full of stories of Tokarev's blowing up when fired, due to bad cartridges.

I don't understand that.

A cartridge that fits the pistol, can only accept so much powder, right ?

With a Flintlock, there are many things that could go wrong. Powder not packed tightly, leaving a gap. Too much powder. Using smokeless powder.

But how could there possibly be so much powder in a cartridge that the firearm would explode ?

 

[Acer-m14]

just my normal thought process .. it a old gun ... Damascus Barrel .. what BP did they use in the loads .. F .. FF .. FFF ... FFFF back then and
how much ? and how much shot or ball weight ? ..

 

[kev74]

But how could there possibly be so much powder in a cartridge that the firearm would explode ?

It all comes down to pressure. If the charge develops more pressure than the gun can handle, its a bomb not a gun. For example, in reloading 38 Special, I use about 3.5 grains of Bullseye powder under a 158 grain bullet. That amounts to about 1/8 inch of powder in the case. There is room in the case for another inch or so of powder. If I were to fill the case with that powder, it would turn my revolver into a hand grenade.

To the original question, as long as the gun was constructed properly and the components not allowed to degrade, the metal its self doesn't change enough to make the gun unsafe. So, unless there is rust, corrosion or excessive heat involved, the basic characteristics of the metal don't change.

Some of the damascus steel barrels get a bit weird, especially if they're very old or were not made with quality materials. The damascus is made by layering two different steels together and forge welding them together, then folding and welding and folding and welding, etc. If there are impurities between the layers that didn't get removed during the forging it can lead to corrosion. Additionally, dissimilar metals together are subject to both galvanic corrosion and inter-granular corrosion. In steel, this usually isn't an issue if its well maintained, but will get accelerated if its subject to oxidation or corrosion (moisture, salts).

For the older shotguns, if they were built to handle black powder pressures, they might not be able to handle the additional pressure developed by smokeless powder. And again, if they were used with black powder, they might have been left with corrosive salts from the black powder for excessive periods, leading to corrosion.

 

[CaseHardened]

If the charge develops more pressure than the gun can handle, its a bomb not a gun. For example, in reloading 38 Special, I use about 3.5 grains of Bullseye powder under a 158 grain bullet. That amounts to about 1/8 inch of powder in the case.

Got it.

So for a Tokarev to explode, perhaps it would only happen if an undersized bullet were installed, thus allowing for too much powder ?

 

[kev74]

Got it.

So for a Tokarev to explode, perhaps it would only happen if an undersized bullet were installed, thus allowing for too much powder ?

Could be a double charge. Could be an obstructed barrel from a squib load. Could be a POS that someone left to rust in a wet toolbox for 10 years then decided to shoot. If it was well maintained and the proper ammo was used, it wouldn't blow up.

There are stories from Vietnam of the US leaving charlie cases of ammo with one or two or three rounds loaded with TNT or similar high explosive, with the intention that the enemy would be demoralized if he watched his buddy's rifle blow up in his face.

 

[CaseHardened]

Could be a double charge.

Well, I suppose that would be my doom.

I buy new ammo, from "reputable" Mail Order sources, and whether the factory loaded them right or not - I've no way of knowing.

 

[CaseHardened]

So, would it be wise to simply weigh each cartridge from each box, to discover if there are any outliers ?

 

[Acer-m14]

Got it.

So for a Tokarev to explode, perhaps it would only happen if an undersized bullet were installed, thus allowing for too much powder ?

not to sure on that .. with undersized bullet and such .. they make camber inserts so you can shoot a rifle round frm a shotgun .. so the undersized bullet never touches the barrel ..

 

[kev74]

So, would it be wise to simply weigh each cartridge from each box, to discover if there are any outliers ?

If you're shooting factory loads, you're good to go. If you're shooting gun show reloads in a plastic bag, you're taking more of a risk.

More importantly, give the gun a look-over before you shoot. And if you hear a "pop" instead of a "bang", make sure the barrel is clear before you pull the trigger again.

 

[CaseHardened]

Camber Insert ?

I fired both a Bazooka and a LAW during training.

A-Holes supplied inserts in them that fired only crappy Rifle Rounds.

I suppose the first time I would fire one for real, would be when an Enemy Tank was rolling straight at me.

Thank you Pentagon Penny Pinchers.

SAD

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

I reload for tokarev quite a bit. You would be hard pressed to overcharge a tokarev round if you were using proper powders for the cartridge. There are some loads that go right up to where the neck ends and goes into the case. If you fed your gun a steady diet of these super hot loads I suppose the gun could beat itself up to failure (kaboom). But there would be warning signs well before that point. This goes for any gun though. Now if you're using an improper powder like say titegroup and fill the case with as much powder as you would a hot load then all bets are off. But again this is true for any gun.

ETA: There is also the case of messing with unusual bullet weights for caliber. I have a very nice 110 grain load for the tokarev. Spec ammo is 83-85 grains. That difference in bullet weight is huge. So if you made a super compressed load with the 110 you could get a kaboom. So you really have to know what you're doing when using bullet weights not normally used with a caliber.

ETAA: Also look out for "proof" rounds. Those were floating around for a while. I believe they came in pink packaging for the tokarev. They are purposely extremely hot rounds to test guns.

 

[CaseHardened]

As I can't really afford a 1911, I like my C&R Tokarev.

Very little recoil and easy to rack.

Is it accurate ?

F#ck if I know. I fire slow and steady at the range, and get most rounds within the target. That's all I'm looking for.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

As I can't really afford a 1911, I like my C&R Tokarev.

Very little recoil and easy to rack.

Is it accurate ?

F#ck if I know. I fire slow and steady at the range, and get most rounds within the target. That's all I'm looking for.

If it's really that old then treat your gun to a new recoil spring.

 

[CaseHardened]

If it's really that old then treat your gun to a new recoil spring.

It's certainly from the 1950's.

Why a new spring ?

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

It's certainly from the 1950's.

Why a new spring ?

It's an old gun that may have been used who knows how many times. The recoil springs are cheap and plentiful. May as well get a brand new one.

 

[spat]

Correct and I agree but if they are all done correctly there should be no issues per say.

I’m certainly no expert at all on this but I have watched forge in fire. I have don’t a bit of research on this and this was the general consensus from what I read. I’m sure the steel back then wasn’t as pure and there are likely many impurities in the metal that could and would cause metal failure or failure to weld properly. That’s my guess.

I think kev should weigh in on this since it seems right up his alley.

You can probably safely fire most of those guns too.

If you can guess which ones were welded correctly, have at it.

If you had one you really wanted to use you could probably have it non destructively tested to find out.

 

[CaseHardened]

It's an old gun that may have been used who knows how many times. The recoil springs are cheap and plentiful. May as well get a brand new one.

Can you recommend a Brand ?

 

[repete]

Can you recommend a Brand ?

Wolf Springs is a BIG name in gun springs they probably have them available.
I've never owned a Tok but do own many other brand and use Wilson's Shock Buffer" on some of them. it's a thin piece of rubber(?) that fits between the spring and frame reducing the impact and shock to the guns frame. I have NO idea if one could be trimmed to fit but there cheap and worth a try, they also reduce felt recoil too.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Can you recommend a Brand ?

Wolf Springs is a BIG name in gun springs they probably have them available.
I've never owned a Tok but do own many other brand and use Wilson's Shock Buffer" on some of them. it's a thin piece of rubber(?) that fits between the spring and frame reducing the impact and shock to the guns frame. I have NO idea if one could be trimmed to fit but there cheap and worth a try, they also reduce felt recoil too.

https://www.gunsprings.com/TOKAREV/cID1/mID68/dID294

Replace ALL of the springs for cheap.

 

[CaseHardened]

I

It's an old gun that may have been used who knows how many times. The recoil springs are cheap and plentiful. May as well get a brand new one.

I think I will order the Wolf kit for the Tokarev.

Now, I have heard the CZ-82, although a fine Handgun, is an absolute nightmare to disassemble / assemble.

I'm thinking I'd not want to go there.

Advice ?

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

I


I think I will order the Wolf kit for the Tokarev.

Now, I have heard the CZ-82, although a fine Handgun, is an absolute nightmare to disassemble / assemble.

I'm thinking I'd not want to go there.

Advice ?

In what caliber? I personally don't have time behind the trigger of an 82 but from all accounts it's a nice gun. I have a makarov and love it. It's quite easy to disassemble and maintain. If I were to choose between the 2 guns in 9x18 I would still choose the mak but that's just aesthetics and personal preference. I was lucky enough to get a mak still caked in cosmoline.

 

[CaseHardened]

In what caliber? I personally don't have time behind the trigger of an 82 but from all accounts it's a nice gun. I have a makarov and love it. It's quite easy to disassemble and maintain. If I were to choose between the 2 guns in 9x18 I would still choose the mak but that's just aesthetics and personal preference. I was lucky enough to get a mak still caked in cosmoline.

Well, the CZ-82 is so sophisticated and unusual the ATF declared it an exception to the C&R fifty year mandate.

They typically date from the eighties, and have been C&R legit for at least a decade already.

According to Wikipedia, they were manufactured up until 1992, and were declared a C&R in 2007.

CZ 82 - Wikipedia

That's FIFTEEN YEARS, not the usual 50.

Mak's are tough to C&R, as many are fifty years old, and many are not. And out-of-state dealers typically don't have the time, nor will, to select by date.