Does the 4th Amendment really exist?

[pmcjuryny]

My Neighbor is not local so I keep an eye on his property. I caught a DEC officer taking pictures of my neighbors construction equipment about 500' off into the woods(nothing leaking or other ecological hazards). How he knew it was all even back there is anyone's guess. I scared the shit out of him walking behind him and asking if he needed help with something. He asked if I was the landowner to which I responded no, I keep an eye on the place. I asked what his purpose was back there, he would not tell me because I was not the owner. My neighbor contacted DEC to see what their business was, they had no record of any visit by that officer. He escalated it to some sort of supervisor, which told him they can do whatever they want to investigate potential violations, which they had no record of having.

Was the property posted, or fenced? As far as I know anyone can legally walk on to an unposted/unfenced property. It's an asshole move, but legal as far as I know. So if the property wasn't posted or fenced, no warrant or rs/pc would be needed.

I'm not doubting your story, just curious.

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Guess I reposted instead of editted, opps.

 

[Robin]

Your property does NOT need to be posted. All without owner permission are legally trespassing.
Robin

 

[Doc8404]

Yes because that is not the same thing. You specifically stated that a game warden could be used to get cops into one's home without a warrant. Show me where that happened. Saying that oranges are orange, then showing me an Apple doesn't prove your point.

I like apples.
And turtles.
I like turtles.

 

[Doc8404]

Some reading when bored
Search and Seizure

 

[pmcjuryny]

Your property does NOT need to be posted. All without owner permission are legally trespassing.
Robin

I would agree morally it is trespassing, but the only nys laws I have ever seen that cover criminal treapass, deal with entering a dwelling/building or an enclosed piece of property.

Per nys law, a fence or posting seems to be required

"Enter or remain unlawfully." A person "enters or remains
unlawfully" in or upon premises when he is not licensed or privileged to
do so. A person who, regardless of his intent, enters or remains in or
upon premises which are at the time open to the public does so with
license and privilege unless he defies a lawful order not to enter or
remain, personally communicated to him by the owner of such premises or
other authorized person. A license or privilege to enter or remain in a
building which is only partly open to the public is not a license or
privilege to enter or remain in that part of the building which is not
open to the public. A person who enters or remains upon unimproved and
apparently unused land, which is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed
in a manner designed to exclude intruders, does so with license and
privilege unless notice against trespass is personally communicated to
him by the owner of such land or other authorized person, or unless such
notice is given by posting in a conspicuous manner. A person who enters
or remains in or about a school building without written permission from
someone authorized to issue such permission or without a legitimate
reason which includes a relationship involving custody of or
responsibility for a pupil or student enrolled in the school or without
legitimate business or a purpose relating to the operation of the school
does so without license and privilege.

I'm always up for learning so if you have some case or case law that shows that simply being on someone else's unfenced, unposted property without being told to leave resulted in a trespassing conviction I would love to see it.

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[pmcjuryny]

Your property does NOT need to be posted. All without owner permission are legally trespassing.
Robin

I would agree morally it is trespassing, but the only nys laws I have ever seen that cover criminal treapass, deal with entering a dwelling/building or an enclosed piece of property.

Per nys law, a fence or posting seems to be required

"Enter or remain unlawfully." A person "enters or remains
unlawfully" in or upon premises when he is not licensed or privileged to
do so. A person who, regardless of his intent, enters or remains in or
upon premises which are at the time open to the public does so with
license and privilege unless he defies a lawful order not to enter or
remain, personally communicated to him by the owner of such premises or
other authorized person. A license or privilege to enter or remain in a
building which is only partly open to the public is not a license or
privilege to enter or remain in that part of the building which is not
open to the public. A person who enters or remains upon unimproved and
apparently unused land, which is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed
in a manner designed to exclude intruders, does so with license and
privilege unless notice against trespass is personally communicated to
him by the owner of such land or other authorized person, or unless such
notice is given by posting in a conspicuous manner. A person who enters
or remains in or about a school building without written permission from
someone authorized to issue such permission or without a legitimate
reason which includes a relationship involving custody of or
responsibility for a pupil or student enrolled in the school or without
legitimate business or a purpose relating to the operation of the school
does so without license and privilege.

I'm always up for learning so if you have some case or case law that shows that simply being on someone else's unfenced, unposted property without being told to leave resulted in a trespassing conviction I would love to see it.

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[pmcjuryny]

Double tap

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[Snappo]

Was the property posted, or fenced? As far as I know anyone can legally walk on to an unposted/unfenced property. It's an asshole move, but legal as far as I know. So if the property wasn't posted or fenced, no warrant or rs/pc would be needed.

I'm not doubting your story, just curious.

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Guess I reposted instead of editted, opps.

You should always have a stack of those signs and some rebar in your barn. As soon as you ghost the shitstain tresspasser you slam one of those fuckers into the ground with a bit of duct tape and call the popo to come bring their body bag over.

 

[Robin]

In this state you need land owner permission to set foot on someone's property or it is 'trespassing' and citable even with no signs posted, 'criminal trespassing' is a different law.
Robin

 

[Snappo]

In this state you need land owner permission to set foot on someone's property or it is 'trespassing' and citable even with no signs posted, 'criminal trespassing' is a different law.
Robin

So the signs aren't anything more than an indicator of where public land stops and private land begins? Seems to me a fence would have the same indication without having to put those stupid $5 signs every 100 feet.

 

[pmcjuryny]

In this state you need land owner permission to set foot on someone's property or it is 'trespassing' and citable even with no signs posted, 'criminal trespassing' is a different law.
Robin

I'm not sure where your getting that based on nys law. Even the simple trespass violation says "a person is guilty of trespass when he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises". (Penal code section 140.05)

Penal code 140.00.5 specifically states that unless the land is fenced, the land owner personally told the person to stay off, or the land is posted, that someone on it is not trepassing.

A person who enters or remains upon unimproved and
apparently unused land, which is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed
in a manner designed to exclude intruders, does so with license and
privilege unless notice against trespass is personally communicated to
him by the owner of such land or other authorized person, or unless such
notice is given by posting in a conspicuous manner.

Unless you are talking about a different state, as far as I know there is no law that makes simply being on someone's property a crime. If there is show it,

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[Robin]

I have been teaching the bowhunter course since the day the state required it and often we have ECO's come and give a short talk. For as long as I can remember, including a month and a half ago, the ECO stated very clearly that no sign is required, you need landowner permission to be on the land. I am not a lawyer, but this has been my understanding for my whole life.
It does make sense.
Robin

 

[pmcjuryny]

I have been teaching the bowhunter course since the day the state required it and often we have ECO's come and give a short talk. For as long as I can remember, including a month and a half ago, the ECO stated very clearly that no sign is required, you need landowner permission to be on the land. I am not a lawyer, but this has been my understanding for my whole life.
It does make sense.
Robin

It makes sense, and I'm not saying it shouldn't be that way, but that's not the way it is. Straight from the Dec

Q. Is written permission from the person posting necessary?

A. No, but written permission bars prosecution of trespass. Some landowners find written permission a convenient way to get to know guests, and to keep track of them. They write simple notes or make homemade forms. DEC also provides free blank Landowner Permission Record forms for granting permission.

Posting Information for Landowners, Boaters, Fishermen and Hunters - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

It also covers unposted property

Q. Must I post to keep people off my property?

A. No. Trespassing is illegal even on unposted property. Instead of posting, a landowner or other authorized person may issue written notice to another informing them that they are prohibited from a property. The notice must contain a description of the property, what restrictions apply (hunting, fishing, trapping) and the person or persons prohibited from entry. It should be delivered by certified mail or other processes to prove that the person was served. At any time, anyone asked to leave the premises, posted or not, by the landowner, occupant or other authorized person, must do so immediately.

It is only after someone has been told to leave unposted property and fails to do so, or returns that they are breaking the law.

It's new york, never assume that things are the way they should be. It's a shame that the ECO isn't providing factual information, but as perfectly illustrated by the SAFE ACT and the nysp hotline, cops are not a good source of legal information.

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[Cavalry]

Was the property posted, or fenced? As far as I know anyone can legally walk on to an unposted/unfenced property. It's an asshole move, but legal as far as I know. So if the property wasn't posted or fenced, no warrant or rs/pc would be needed.

He has 30 something acres so no its not fenced, but it is well posted. I could not see how DEC exited out the front, but I assume he climbed the cattle gate that has a posted sign square in the middle of it.

 

[pmcjuryny]

He has 30 something acres so no its not fenced, but it is well posted. I could not see how DEC exited out the front, but I assume he climbed the cattle gate that has a posted sign square in the middle of it.

Well, after getting a little side tracked, we get back to the facts. In that case the Dec officer is an assbag, and if your friend was so inclined I would talk to the sheriff about about it, and see what he has to say about the Dec trespassing.

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