Dude open carrying. nobody freaked out!

[spat]

What do you mean by that with your statement in regards to this conversation? That the police can open carry or that you can open carry as per the law?

Technically, both can. What can they charge you with (besides generic catch all crap like disorderly).

While the permit says "have and carry concealed" the only law they could charge you with (PL 265) has listed as an exemption

Possession of a pistol or revolver by a person to whom a license
therefor has been issued as provided under section 400.00 or 400.01 of
this chapter

So, the license exempts you from being prosecuted for possession. Possession is the only thing to charge you with, regardless of the manner in which you carry it.

It probably wouldn't take them long to get your permit revoked and come by to take *all* your stuff if they wanted, but there just isn't a criminal "open carrying" charge in the law.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Technically, both can. What can they charge you with (besides generic catch all crap like disorderly).

While the permit says "have and carry concealed" the only law they could charge you with (PL 265) has listed as an exemption

So, the license exempts you from being prosecuted for possession. Possession is the only thing to charge you with, regardless of the manner in which you carry it.

It probably wouldn't take them long to get your permit revoked and come by to take *all* your stuff if they wanted, but there just isn't a criminal "open carrying" charge in the law.

Read Penal Law 400.

Article 400 | NYS Penal Law | Licensing Provisions Firearms

15. Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a class A misdemeanor.

New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law - PEN § 70.15 | FindLaw

New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law - PEN § 70.15 Sentences of imprisonment for misdemeanors and violation -


1. Class A misdemeanor.  A sentence of imprisonment for a class A misdemeanor shall be a definite sentence.  When such a sentence is imposed the term shall be fixed by the court, and shall not exceed one year;  provided, however, that a sentence of imprisonment imposed upon a conviction of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree as defined in subdivision one of section 265.01 must be for a period of no less than one year when the conviction was the result of a plea of guilty entered in satisfaction of an indictment or any count thereof charging the defendant with the class D violent felony offense of criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree as defined in subdivision four of section 265.02, except that the court may impose any other sentence authorized by law upon a person who has not been previously convicted in the five years immediately preceding the commission of the offense for a felony or a class A misdemeanor defined in this chapter, if the court having regard to the nature and circumstances of the crime and to the history and character of the defendant, finds on the record that such sentence would be unduly harsh and that the alternative sentence would be consistent with public safety and does not deprecate the seriousness of the crime.

 

[spat]

Read Penal Law 400.

15. Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a class A misdemeanor.

Upon conviction of a Class “A”misdemeanor, a court may sentence an individual to a maximum of one year in jail or three years probation. In addition, a fine of up to $1,000 or twice the amount of the individual's gain from the crime may be imposed. ... A felony is a crime.

Right, but what are they going to charge you with ? Not possession, your permit exempts you from that. There is no "failure to conceal" charge to be had anywhere. That is why people say violation of all those "administrative restrictions" aren't criminal. It's basically a warning that you'll lose your permit, not something they can charge you with.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Right, but what are they going to charge you with ? Not possession, your permit exempts you from that. There is no "failure to conceal" charge to be had anywhere. That is why people say violation of all those "administrative restrictions" aren't criminal. It's basically a warning that you'll lose your permit, not something they can charge you with.

I edited it. Read the sentences. You can be charged with Criminal Possession of a Weapon. Why? Because you didn't follow the conditions of exemption and therefore are no longer exempted.

 

[Marine Cpl]

And if that's not the case and I'm incorrect, you can be charged directly from Penal Law 400 for violating a provision. A class A misdemeanor is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[FrankenCub]

I cannot be the only one who OC's in this horrible State?

Depends on the season. All during hunting season, small and big game, I OC a lot. But also OC a back tag lol.
I probably wouldn't go into a store in Binghamton like that, but the local towns where I live I don't think twice. Seen many Troopers and Sheriff deputies that never even asked a question. Stopped to get some hot coffee OCing 2 guns when a Trooper stepped up to get coffee, nothing but a smile from him. I think he was embarrassed, mine was bigger lmao.

 

[spat]

I edited it. Read the sentences. You can be charged with Criminal Possession of a Weapon in the 4th Degree.

I still don't see anything in there to charge you with.

The exemption for CPW 4th just says "anyone with a permit is exempt".

I edited it. Read the sentences. You can be charged with Criminal Possession of a Weapon. Why? Because you didn't follow the conditions of exemption and therefore are no longer exempted.

Nope, having a permit exempts you from 265.01 .

And if that's not the case and I'm incorrect, you can be charged directly from Penal Law 400 for violating a provision. A class A misdemeanor is nothing to sneeze at.

PL 400 has no prohibition on OC. It gives permission to CC, but is silent on OC.

PL 265 says if you have a license from PL 400 you are exempt from prosecution for possession.

PL 400 doesn't say anything more about possessing 3 guns (265.02 sec 5i), 5 guns (265.03 sec 2), or 10 guns (265.04 sec 2) than it does about OC, but you can't be prosecuted for those either if you have a permit...

 

[Marine Cpl]

I still don't see anything in there to charge you with.

The exemption for CPW 4th just says "anyone with a permit is exempt".

Nope, having a permit exempts you from 265.01 .

PL 400 has no prohibition on OC. It gives permission to CC, but is silent on OC.

PL 265 says if you have a license from PL 400 you are exempt from prosecution for possession.

PL 400 doesn't say anything more about possessing 3 guns (265.02 sec 5i), 5 guns (265.03 sec 2), or 10 guns (265.04 sec 2) than it does about OC, but you can't be prosecuted for those either if you have a permit...

Lol. Spat will say what benefits Spat. It's comical. I'll let you argue with yourself.

 

[spat]

Lol. Spat will say what benefits Spat. It's comical. I'll let you argue with yourself.

So, what are you saying you will be charged with specifically ?

The only criminal charge in all those definitions related to OC is "possession", and a permit exempts you from that one. There is simply no "failure to conceal" law on the books in this state.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I wasn't going to respond because I am repeating myself but I will anyway in case some dude reads what you are saying and thinks it's okay to Open Carry because it's legal according to you.

Article 400 | NYS Penal Law | Licensing Provisions Firearms

(a) have and possess in his dwelling by a householder;

(b) have and possess in his place of business by a merchant or storekeeper;

(f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof;


15. Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a class A misdemeanor.

Notice how A and B which are Premise Permits do not give authorization to carry in any way whether open or concealed.

Notice how F gives you authorization to carry and how to carry it.

Now under your logic, anyone with a Premise Permit, can carry openly wherever he wants because he's immune to prosecution. It's that what you are saying?

Are you saying that violating any provision of this section isn't punishable as a Class A Misdemeanor?

 

[spat]

I wasn't going to respond because I am repeating myself but I will anyway in case some dude reads what you are saying and thinks it's okay to Open Carry because it's legal according to you.

Article 400 | NYS Penal Law | Licensing Provisions Firearms

(a) have and possess in his dwelling by a householder;

(b) have and possess in his place of business by a merchant or storekeeper;

(f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof;


15. Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a class A misdemeanor.

Notice how A and B which are Premise Permits do not give authorization to carry in any way whether open or concealed.

Notice how F gives you authorization to carry and how to carry it.

Now under your logic, anyone with a Premise Permit, can carry openly wherever he wants because he's immune to prosecution. It's that what you are saying?

Are you saying that violating any provision of this section isn't punishable as a Class A Misdemeanor?

I am saying that violating the section requires you to do something it prohibits. Not merely something that it doesn't explicitly allow. Your premise permit doesn't allow carry at all, does that mean the gun needs to sit untouched in a safe ?

That section lists a bunch of things you can do. Nowhere does it list open carry as something you can't do. Show me where in PL 400 open carry is prohibited.

Violating those conditions are grounds for revocation of the permit, nothing more.

Are you saying someone open carrying will be charged with Criminal Possession ? If not, what will they be charged with ? No place in PL 400 does it prohibit open carry. If it isn't prohibited then it is not a criminal offense.

PL 265 says if you have a license issued under PL 400 you are exempt. It doesn't specify any restrictions to that exemption.

Now, we all know that neither of us are lawyers, it would get interesting to hear one of them who is familiar with these laws give their take.

Although, the fact that in 100 years of this law, nobody has been convicted the way you suggest tends to indicate that prosecutors agree with me.

 

[Marine Cpl]

15. Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a class A misdemeanor.

 

[spat]

15. Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a class A misdemeanor.

So what provision are you suggesting they violated ? What part prohibits open carry?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Spat. Can the Premise Permit Holder open carry outside of his dwelling? It doesn't say he can't. I guess he can conceal carry too.

 

[Marine Cpl]

They charge you directly from Penal Law 400 itself.

17. Applicability of section.  The provisions of article two hundred sixty-five of this chapter relating to illegal possession of a firearm, shall not apply to an offense which also constitutes a violation of this section by a person holding an otherwise valid license under the provisions of this section and such offense shall only be punishable as a class A misdemeanor pursuant to this section.  In addition, the provisions of such article two hundred sixty-five of this chapter shall not apply to the possession of a firearm in a place not authorized by law, by a person who holds an otherwise valid license or possession of a firearm by a person within a one year period after the stated expiration date of an otherwise valid license which has not been previously cancelled or revoked shall only be punishable as a class A misdemeanor pursuant to this section. - See more at: New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law - PEN § 400.00 | FindLaw

 

[Kent Goldings]

I think open carry should be the standard for handguns. It was commonplace in Vermont when I was growing up.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Although, the fact that in 100 years of this law, nobody has been convicted the way you suggest tends to indicate that prosecutors agree with me.

Why do you keep trying to make sense of poorly written laws? It doesn't mean they agree with you. It just means that the police don't enforce it and when they do, the judge just yanks the permit because it's easier just like it's easier to offer plea deals.

 

[spat]

Why do you keep trying to make sense of poorly written laws? It doesn't mean they agree with you. It just means that the police don't enforce it and when they do, the judge just yanks the permit because it's easier just like it's easier to offer plea deals.

Why do you try to keep reading things into laws that are plainly not written there ?

NY is bad enough without adding imaginary offenses too.

 

[spat]

They charge you directly from Penal Law 400 itself.

17. Applicability of section.  The provisions of article two hundred sixty-five of this chapter relating to illegal possession of a firearm, shall not apply to an offense which also constitutes a violation of this section by a person holding an otherwise valid license under the provisions of this section and such offense shall only be punishable as a class A misdemeanor pursuant to this section.  In addition, the provisions of such article two hundred sixty-five of this chapter shall not apply to the possession of a firearm in a place not authorized by law, by a person who holds an otherwise valid license or possession of a firearm by a person within a one year period after the stated expiration date of an otherwise valid license which has not been previously cancelled or revoked shall only be punishable as a class A misdemeanor pursuant to this section. - See more at: New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law - PEN § 400.00 | FindLaw

What part of that can you possibly conclude relates to open carry ?

 

[Marine Cpl]

What part of that can you possibly conclude relates to open carry ?

Answer this with a yes or no. Can a Premise Permit Holder carry his pistol outside of his home or business open or concealed?

(a) have and possess in his dwelling by a householder;

(b) have and possess in his place of business by a merchant or storekeeper;

 

[Marine Cpl]

What part of that can you possibly conclude relates to open carry ?

You aren't following Penal Law 400 to the letter for exemption. For example. You don't register a pistol by make, model, serial, ect. You aren't subject to Penal Law 265 as stated in both Penal Law 265 and 400 but you are subject to a Class A Misdemeanor for violating provisions of Penal Law 400.

The same goes with the method of carry. It required you to carry concealed to be exempted from Penal Law 265. You didn't. So you violated a provision of Penal Law 400 and are subject to a Class A Misdemeanor.

That charge will be via Penal Law 400 itself.

 

[spat]

You aren't following Penal Law 400 to the letter for exemption. For example. You don't register a pistol by make, model, serial, ect. You aren't subject to Penal Law 265 as stated in both Penal Law 265 and 400 but you are subject to a Class A Misdemeanor for violating provisions of Penal Law 400.

The same goes with the method of carry. It required you to carry concealed to be exempted from Penal Law 265. You didn't. So you violated a provision of Penal Law 400 and are subject to a Class A Misdemeanor.

That charge will be via Penal Law 400 itself.

If youre right, surely there is an an example out there somewhere right ?

 

[Marine Cpl]

If youre right, surely there is an an example out there somewhere right ?

I knew you were going to go that route. I already explained that. Plea bargains and revocations are much easier for both parties.

 

[spat]

I knew you were going to go that route. I already explained that. Plea bargains and revocations are much easier for both parties.

So, if nobody is going to be charged for it, is it even illegal , even if your reading of the statute was correct ?

Bottom line is that there are a lot of reasons not to open carry. There are even reasons to expect you will get charged with something for doing so in NY. But worrying about getting charged under PL400 or PL 265 for it is completely useless.

You break several laws *every day* that you *could* in theory be charged for. Nobody worries about those, and this is like that.

 

[Marine Cpl]

So, if nobody is going to be charged for it, is it even illegal , even if your reading of the statute was correct ?

Bottom line is that there are a lot of reasons not to open carry. There are even reasons to expect you will get charged with something for doing so in NY. But worrying about getting charged under PL400 or PL 265 for it is completely useless.

You break several laws *every day* that you *could* in theory be charged for. Nobody worries about those, and this is like that.

It still is illegal though. The thing is most people with money that are into guns will just leave and not bother with BS. We on the other hand, will be offered the plea and take it because we cannot afford to go through the BS.

 

[spat]

You aren't following Penal Law 400 to the letter for exemption. For example. You don't register a pistol by make, model, serial, ect. You aren't subject to Penal Law 265 as stated in both Penal Law 265 and 400 but you are subject to a Class A Misdemeanor for violating provisions of Penal Law 400.

The same goes with the method of carry. It required you to carry concealed to be exempted from Penal Law 265. You didn't. So you violated a provision of Penal Law 400 and are subject to a Class A Misdemeanor.

That charge will be via Penal Law 400 itself.

What does PL 400 prohibit ? Violations of PL 400 are doing things it prohibits, not just doing stuff it doesn't mention. PL 400 doesn't say I can mow my lawn either, but you can't be charged for that.....

Can a person with a Premise Permit carry in any manner while at home ? PL 400 doesn't say they can. Your reading of PL 400 would mean that they literally could keep it but not touch it.

 

[Marine Cpl]

What does PL 400 prohibit ? Violations of PL 400 are doing things it prohibits, not just doing stuff it doesn't mention. PL 400 doesn't say I can mow my lawn either, but you can't be charged for that.....

Can a person with a Premise Permit carry in any manner while at home ? PL 400 doesn't say they can. Your reading of PL 400 would mean that they literally could keep it but not touch it.

You aren't answering the question. Forget about the home. Can a Premise Permit Holder carry open or concealed outside the home?

 

[SteyrAug]

SPAT, loves to waste time picking the flyshit out of the pepper.

Since I have pals in Geneseo, I suggest he make a big show of strapping on a Roy Rogers two gun rig complete with nickle 45 SAAs and spend a Sunday walking around town, past the college, down by the jail, along court, university and church. Be sure to have a pal to video it come along. Give us the date so I can alert my friends to watch the takedown.

He's a snowflake with a mask living with his mommy and hiding under a desk.

 

[Marine Cpl]

SPAT, loves to waste time picking the flyshit out of the pepper.

Since I have pals in Geneseo, I suggest he make a big show of strapping on a Roy Rogers two gun rig complete with nickle 45 SAAs and spend a Sunday walking around town, past the college, down by the jail, along court, university and church. Be sure to have a pal to video it come along. Give us the date so I can alert my friends to watch the takedown.

He's a snowflake with a mask living with his mommy and hiding under a desk.

Fuck you.

 

[SteyrAug]

A calm, intelligent, measured response. What I love about the internet.