Saltwater60
.950 JDJ
I guess the part about paying taxes as part of the understanding of purchase and knowing it is part of the contract was missed in my post.
Eminent domain happening right now in Kenmore, NY
- Thread starter Saltwater60
- Start date
Saltwater60
.950 JDJ
I’m trying to say there is a vast difference between me getting my property taken for not paying taxes and the government coming to steal my property if all taxes and what not is up to date.
Yes all those things you mentioned suck but I know I’ll have to pay taxes and get permits prior to buying my house. I know those things and I accepted that, but no one thinks that their property will be confiscated for government to “better itself”. As said above I think the two scenarios are vastly different and having your name on a title or deed does mean something.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
No, we did not lose the right.
Just like we did not lose the RKBA in 1934, or 1968, or 1986, etc.
Our rights are being badly infringed, that doesn't mean they don't exist.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
If you are forced into unreasonable conditions under threat of force as part of a contract, they are not valid. That is a basic tenet of law.
Should people in 1920s Chicago have just accepted paying Capone his protection money, because they knew it was there when they bought ?
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Once again, you're not getting it. If the .gov wants to take THEIR property thru eminent domain they are NOT stealing your property. It is THEIR property all along. They want you to believe it's your property, but it's very obvious through their actions, supported by the law, that it is their property from the get go. Your deed is valid until they say it isn't. 'Just compensation' is determined by them with no legal recourse on your part.
The whole American dream charade is a wonderful act put in place to get people to rent their property from them.
Even if none of us have to become burdened with eviction through eminent domain, which by the way is an incredibly rare occurrence, it doesn't mean you own the property. They still own it, and you still pay rent and ask permission to make changes to it. You do own the right to live there and even be compensated for transfer through a sale to the next renter.
You can even think about how a bank foreclosure works. If a bank has a mortgage on your home and you don't pay your mortgage the bank will foreclose and take your home. The order of right to first refusal goes to the lender with the first mortgage, then the second mortgage, and so on. However, if you didn't pay your property taxes the government steps in front of the first mortgage holder to the first in line to right of first refusal. At this time the bank will typically pay the back taxes to secure their place in line to foreclose in the first lienholder position. In other words, the true property owner gets paid first, the government.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
You're not getting it.
It's not *their* property, no matter how much power they have to steal it.
Not any more than you are carrying the mugger"s wallet around for him just because he has the power to take it.
phatfarmerbob
.223 Rem
Simple .. find a place you don’t want to ever sell and then DONT ASK PERMISSION!
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Ohhhhh I get it. You and @Saltwater60 are stuck on the semantics of the word 'own'. There isn't an ice cubes chance in hell any of us own the properties we live on. We're merely the caretakers for the true owners.
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Not the point. You're still the caretaker, renting the property owned by .gov. If you NEVER sell it, that doesn't mean you're not paying the annual rental fee, also known as property taxes, to them. Try to make improvements (as I listed in another post) without asking for permission first (by way of building permits, for which you also pay to submit), then have them come out to inspect the improvements you've made for compliance to their specifications. And if you don't ask for the permission as you state, they can have you tear down, reconstruct, or change whatever it is you did in the first place. Your choice to be non-compliant will not bode well.
Seriously guys, in every single way, shape, or form, they show ownership. And once again, from whence this thread started, if you never sell as you state @phatfarmerbob and they decide they want to put a road through your property or build an addition to their police station, or build a hospital, or whatever they deem to be a benefit to them or the rest of society they are still going to reclaim 'your' property under eminent domain.
phatfarmerbob
.223 Rem
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
lol, works great in the movies. Reality is not scripted. But it does sound good in a gun forum.
phatfarmerbob
.223 Rem
I’m pretty sensitive to the eminent domain subject. I don’t believe in building permits, or any of that sort of bs. Someday it might bite me in the ass but I really can’t subscribe to that crap. I get what your saying and don’t take it the wrong way, but this is a sore subject for me personally. I just cannot accept it so chose to ignore it. Maybe someday y’all will see me on the news laying in front of a bulldozer ( but I doubt it )
phatfarmerbob
.223 Rem
It’s different when your land is your livelihood, sure someone can just move to another house, if you go to work somewhere else. But when your family has spent generations getting land fertile it’s different. Hard to understand for 97% of people but if you know you know.
Now I sound like a “nut job”
Now I sound like a “nut job”
spat
.700 Nitro Express
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I totally get it. But keep in mind, this thread was originally started about eminent domain taking someone's livelihood. Not their home. It's EXACTLY as you just described. What can they do about it? Absofreakinglutely nothing. Take .gov to court? Sure, they have unlimited public funding for lawsuits. And with eminent domain, I highly doubt anyone would be successful winning that suit.
Also, please note, I'm totally not supporting or in favor of the BS I'm spewing here. My explanations quite frankly are indisputable. I'm being a realist and pragmatic about the way it really is at the core of property ownership. I 'own' my home. And I've owned many before this one. I was a GC and built many homes. I'm a staunch advocate for home ownership. I never paid a penny rent in my life. I bought my first home when I moved out of my parents place.
My mortgage has been paid off for years now. And I still pay the same annual rental fee everyone pays. I'm just playing devils advocate here. The truth of the matter lies with the facts presented here. Everyone abhors them, but there really is nothing we can do about it. Other than post meme's or gif's to make fun of a sad situation.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Worked for a bunch of farmers in 1776.
Seems like we're headed back in that direction now.
When your life is run by a bunch of dudes 1000 miles away that DGAF what you think....
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Come on, you know what we've been talking about here. I know for a fact you're smarter than that.
As for, by what right? Taxation is your rental fee. Building permits requesting permission to improve or amend their property paid to the same owner. Foreclosure by the same owner if you don't pay your rent.
The roadmap is laid out in front of us. It's up to each of us to understand it. Playing tough guy on an internet forum isn't changing anything with regard to who is the rightful owner of all the land between two oceans.
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Ok. This discussion has obviously devolved into a debate about my dad's bigger than your dad.
If you truly believe property ownership, which all of the property owners in this country are complicit to, are going to play 1776 all over again because a few eminent domain actions happen each year you probably aren't looking at this like a realist. The fact is, eminent domain is rare. But it obviously does happen on occasion.
Requesting permission for home improvements is widely accepted by the masses.
Please tell me where you believe the whole 1776 recourse will happen regarding .gov owning all of our properties? Try to be serious about it.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
No, not over a few eminent domain actions.
But the 1776 folks didn't do their thing just over a tax on Tea either.
It is a symptom of a larger problem.
The one where the rulers think the people are an asset to be managed not an owner to be satisfied.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
You're still missing the point.
Who owns that land ? You don't pay a rental fee to someone who isn't the owner.
Hint, It's not the government. The constitution doesn't say "we, the government".
If they demand money or "something bad will happen", that's not rent, it's a protective racket.
Yes, some protection rackets go on for a long time. That doesn't make them legitimate.
King George claimed to own all the colonists, as well as the land. That had been accepted for centuries. That didn't make it legitimate, and it didn't make it perpetual.
Your whole argument is basically "go ahead, tell capone to stick his protection money where the sun don't shine, see how that works out".
That's an argument for why it's a bad idea not to pay. It isn't an argument for why it's legitimate.
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I get that part. That's not what the discussion has been though. Specifically, the .gov has control and ultimate say about property purportedly owned by the serfs. Due to the laws, taxes, local zoning, and ultimately the acceptance by the people of all these restrictions and intrusions shows we recognize who are our masters. It sucks, big time. But call a spade a spade. They do rule us. It hurts to admit it and say it like this, but realization is the first step to recovery, lol.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Yep, and King George ruled in 1775 too.
My point is that people will accept a lot of things, right up until they won't. And then they tend not to just stop things there.
Once you push them too far, things get real messy.
1775 was not unique. The resulting government was, but not the war.
King George forgot the lessons his predecessor learned at the Magna Carta. And his cousins in France didn't heed the warning of 1776. They kept fucking around, and boy did they find out.
Maybe we've got a decade or maybe a century, but things will not keep going this way forever.
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
You're dancing with semantics. You want to believe We The People own the land? Go right ahead.
Don't play by their rules? Go ahead.
Don't pay the taxes, to yourself apparently? Go ahead.
An army of one won't get you very far.
You keep bringing up Capone. Stop deflecting the argument with a ridiculous comparison. Capone was not the government. He was a criminal. He wasn't voted into office of 'gang leader'. He took control by means of intimidation, terror, violence and strong arming those around him. Our government, like it or not, is structured in the Constitution. We vote for our leaders, like them or not. We have elections, believed to be valid or not.
I get your frustration. I live it too. I play by the crappy rules we all play by. If you don't like the way it's done you can run for office and do what little you can to change it. If you're going to make idle threats about doing it the 1776 farmers way then we really don't have much more to discuss. We both know that is blowing smoke up nobody's rear end.
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Again, I'm describing how we don't own the property we live on. You keep trying to drag me into an argument about everything to do with society today. I'm talking about the misperception of each of us owning the land and property we live on and in. That is the extent of this discussion. For me at least.
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
i bet the Mayor's home there would make a nice police station . why not eminent domain it instead ..
Saltwater60
.950 JDJ
I hope you wouldn’t be the only one in front of that bulldozer!!
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Capone was the defacto government of Chicago in the 1920s. He was every bit as legitimate as the "elected" one.
There's a reason I'm arguing semantics. What do you think the difference between organized crime and government is ?
Capone could have easily had any office or title he wanted. Would a sham election have made what he did any more "legitimate" ?
Would you prefer the Tammany Hall example ?
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spat
.700 Nitro Express
You are saying we don't own it because someone will kick you off of it you don't pay them what they demand.
I am pointing out the flaw in that logic by listing examples from history where that didn't hold.
So, either might makes right, in which case the concept of ownership is useless, or it doesn't, in which case pointing out that someone will take it from you is not a valid argument.
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
At what point in time did you personally stop paying the graft to .gov and continue living in your home?
spat
.700 Nitro Express
I pay because they will murder me otherwise.
Not because they are legitimate demands.
What is so hard to understand about that ?