EMP threat

[Snappo]

So why isn't a car a faraday cage
isn't that why you dont get fried if hit by lightning?

It's because you aren't near the metal structure. If let's say you were working in the engine compartment and touching anything while standing on the ground and lighting hit the hood of the car, you would be beyond toast. The electrons would not be able to easily jump to ground because of the rubber tires, and you would be a way better conductor than the air. They would go through you as the electrons move (clouds equal positive, earth equals ground).

Now lets say you were sitting in the middle of the vehicle, away from the metal skin. The electrons should go around the metal skin and the least resistance is going to be the axles that are only like 8 inches off the ground and should make the jump there. This is also why planes are safe. Nobody is touching the metal skin, and the electrons flow between one cloud and another, or between a cloud and the ground. Well, and pilots typically try to avoid severe weather.

BTW - there is conventional flow and electron flow. Positive to negative, or negative to positive. But for general purposes, the above should make sense.

 

[Snappo]

Here's a good write up on the NK threat

The Threat is Real and Imminent: “Two North Korean Satellites Orbiting Over U.S. May Be Armed With Miniaturized Super-EMP Weapon”

Are those the same North Koreans that keep having issues getting nuclear detonations to continue the chain, and cannot get their ICBM's to fire as they want? And that's with help from Iranian scientists. I cannot imagine that they got satellites into space with EMP warheads large enough to throw off enough gamma to be of any risk to anyone. They are the Keystone Kops of nuclear technology.

And don't forget that huge nuclear detonation USSR did half a century ago. It was bigger than anything North Korea could fathom putting together, and it only melted some phone wire and started a fire that caused them to shut down one power plant for a while. USA is like 3.1 million square miles and I have no clue how many power plants it has but it must be in the hundreds. And USA did one too back in the 60s - Starfish Prime. We detonated 1.5 megatons over Hawaii. It blew out 300 streetlights and set off some burglar alarms. Big whoop. North Korea could never come up with enough material for a 1.5 megaton nuke, let alone a thousand of them, which is about what you'd need to take out any unprotected USA electronics assets.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Can an EMP be set off here by another country like North Korea? Yes.

Will setting off an EMP cripple us? Yes for both us and them. Setting off an EMP here will set off a nuclear weapon on the ground of the country that set it off via an American Nuclear Submarine or an American Plane based out of an allied country.

Not a smart move.

 

[FrankenCub]

More likely, we are past due, statistically, for an impact from a comet or meteor. Another ELE is certainly possible and nothing e can do about it.

Unless you keep an Old tablet, or smart phone in a far away cage, and have a solar powered charger in there to keep it juiced up if it's ever needed.

lol...if it ever comes to this point, both of the above will become useless. Except for maybe storing information, there will be no cell service or social media.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Are those the same North Koreans that keep having issues getting nuclear detonations to continue the chain, and cannot get their ICBM's to fire as they want? And that's with help from Iranian scientists. I cannot imagine that they got satellites into space with EMP warheads large enough to throw off enough gamma to be of any risk to anyone. They are the Keystone Kops of nuclear technology.

And don't forget that huge nuclear detonation USSR did half a century ago. It was bigger than anything North Korea could fathom putting together, and it only melted some phone wire and started a fire that caused them to shut down one power plant for a while. USA is like 3.1 million square miles and I have no clue how many power plants it has but it must be in the hundreds. And USA did one too back in the 60s - Starfish Prime. We detonated 1.5 megatons over Hawaii. It blew out 300 streetlights and set off some burglar alarms. Big whoop. North Korea could never come up with enough material for a 1.5 megaton nuke, let alone a thousand of them, which is about what you'd need to take out any unprotected USA electronics assets.

I'm not a nuclear physicist. But from what I have read on the internet (so it must be true) is that a nuclear device to be a high yield emp weapon, wouldn't be a high megaton device, but actually a lower yield warhead. The weapon would be opitimized to convert its energy into gamma rays.

I've also read that in the late 90's and early 00's a bunch of scientists from Russia went to North korea for work. That's not to mention Iran sharing technology with them and what China is or is not supplying as far as technology.

I respect your opinion because you seem like a very intelligent and accomplished guy but from what I have read, it is very possible NK has these type of emp optimized weapons

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Can an EMP be set off here by another country like North Korea? Yes.

Will setting off an EMP cripple us? Yes for both us and them. Setting off an EMP here will set off a nuclear weapon on the ground of the country that set it off via an American Nuclear Submarine or an American Plane based out of an allied country.

Not a smart move.

Which worries me because I don't think NK is very stable. If paranoid NK thinks we will pre empitvely strike them, what's holding them back? I also don't know whether China would prod NK behind the scenes to be the patsie and attack is to get them out of their way. If China uses NK to neutralize us China is free to take the entire Pacific basin.

And that's also not counting on Russia ever attacking us or Iran attacking either, both of which are threats.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

More likely, we are past due, statistically, for an impact from a comet or meteor. Another ELE is certainly possible and nothing e can do about it.



lol...if it ever comes to this point, both of the above will become useless. Except for maybe storing information, there will be no cell service or social media.

I meant keep them as a way to store information, instructive videos or manuals, take pictures, as a flashlight etc... I know in this scenario the internet and cell communications are toast.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

This is a pretty well done speculative scenario in what would happen during an EMP or Carrington type solar event. It was made by national geographic so I would like to think it's pretty accurate. Of course a lot of it is unproven since it didn't happen yet...

 

[spat]

Are those the same North Koreans that keep having issues getting nuclear detonations to continue the chain, and cannot get their ICBM's to fire as they want? And that's with help from Iranian scientists. I cannot imagine that they got satellites into space with EMP warheads large enough to throw off enough gamma to be of any risk to anyone. They are the Keystone Kops of nuclear technology.

And don't forget that huge nuclear detonation USSR did half a century ago. It was bigger than anything North Korea could fathom putting together, and it only melted some phone wire and started a fire that caused them to shut down one power plant for a while. USA is like 3.1 million square miles and I have no clue how many power plants it has but it must be in the hundreds. And USA did one too back in the 60s - Starfish Prime. We detonated 1.5 megatons over Hawaii. It blew out 300 streetlights and set off some burglar alarms. Big whoop. North Korea could never come up with enough material for a 1.5 megaton nuke, let alone a thousand of them, which is about what you'd need to take out any unprotected USA electronics assets.

If you're talking about Tsar Bomba, it was way to low to cause an appreciable EMP. For a nuke to cause a serious EMP it has to happen at the right level of the atmosphere, with the correct air density. Starfish Prime was 1500km from where it blew out the streetlights, The only reason it wasn't a much larger effect is that there weren't many electronics in the pacific ocean in the 60's.

While I'll agree that "EMP" is often a wildly hyped phenomenon, thinking a starfish prime type detonation over the continental US (1.4Mt 400km altitude) wouldn't be devastating is lunacy. It *would* take down most commercial PCs for instance. Ever see what a modern retail establishment runs like when "the computers are down" ? Imagine that everywhere. Even if the critical power grid survived (I am not all that confident about that, transmission lines are *huge* antennas) all the business systems would be devastated, and every companies disaster recovery plan assumes that you can quickly pick up replacement hardware, the scale of the attack would render that option unavailable.

If the only thing that got knocked out were ATM machines and credit card processors, you could see the inner cities burned to the ground.

 

[Phauxtoe]

if i wrap my iPhone in foil, am i good to go?

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

if i wrap my iPhone in foil, am i good to go?

What would "probably" work is to either put your phone on small cardboard box, or wrap your phone in thick paper towels and put in zip lock bag. Then wrap that in foil.

I think as long you have an insulating layer between the foil and phone it will probably be ok. If your phone is touching the foil the current can probably kill it.

 

[Snappo]

If you're talking about Tsar Bomba, it was way to low to cause an appreciable EMP. For a nuke to cause a serious EMP it has to happen at the right level of the atmosphere, with the correct air density. Starfish Prime was 1500km from where it blew out the streetlights, The only reason it wasn't a much larger effect is that there weren't many electronics in the pacific ocean in the 60's.

While I'll agree that "EMP" is often a wildly hyped phenomenon, thinking a starfish prime type detonation over the continental US (1.4Mt 400km altitude) wouldn't be devastating is lunacy. It *would* take down most commercial PCs for instance. Ever see what a modern retail establishment runs like when "the computers are down" ? Imagine that everywhere. Even if the critical power grid survived (I am not all that confident about that, transmission lines are *huge* antennas) all the business systems would be devastated, and every companies disaster recovery plan assumes that you can quickly pick up replacement hardware, the scale of the attack would render that option unavailable.

If the only thing that got knocked out were ATM machines and credit card processors, you could see the inner cities burned to the ground.

All electronics for military use have transorb arrays. All data centers are Faraday Cages. Every metal roof + metal wall barn is a Faraday Cage. Every power plant was (by congressional requirement) supposed to be in a Faraday Cage and have transorb zener diode arrays. Every plane's electronics has transorbs. Every car made before computer brains is OK. There won't be blown power plants, at worst some above ground lines will get toasted (phone, 75 ohm Comcast cable, etc). Gamma rays are what they are - at the speed of light it doesn't matter if the gamma burst happened 700 miles out or 200 miles out. That's why you can see Gamma streams coming off a black hole 10 billion light years away. EMP is a hyped fear and no different than other times the media hyped everyone. Remember the Y2K panic? Or when everyone said every fish in the sea would be dead by 2000? Or the time they said we would be covered in glaciers all the way to Georgia within a decade? Or when they said some solar flares were going to destroy our planet?

Tsar Bomba was not their (USSR's) EMP test. That was their test of 22 megatons. I was talking about their EMP test - total separate thing.
Soviet Project K nuclear tests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[FrankenCub]

A gamma stream emanating from a black hole and what will come from an EMP are like comparing peas and watermelons. The stream from a black hole is more localized in circumference and we've never been in the path from it either. If we had been in the path from a close enough black hole the Earth would fry, astro physicists have stated that repeatedly. An EMP over NYC would be devastating. The power plant hardware may be well protected but the PC's the control them would not be. They are hardwired to the grid via electric lines and communication lines, they would get pulsed big time. Without that PC control the plants will shut down to avoid damage to them, but everyone will see the results. Not to mention all of the electronic goodies we have in our households, and the autonomous households. Any civilian comms, banking systems, etc etc. Just to repair grid (electric and comms lines) would be worse that what we've experienced from ice storms. Public transportation, the trucking companies, civilian transportation, all going to take a huge hit because of all the computerized bull shit and fly by wire. The North East was taken down by a solar storm not that long ago and that wasn't major.
I'm golden, 1971 GMC still running point ignition
I don't find an EMP attack likely, but it's plain foolish to rule it out as fear porn.

 

[GOPerfect]

An EMP attack can indeed be horrible to all effected. There is a lot of great information out there, there is also a lot of really, really bad information out there.

If this is a fear or concern for you, I would suggest you do some serious and in-depth research into this threat. I have been researching this threat for a very, very long time.

 

[Snappo]

This is a pretty well done speculative scenario in what would happen during an EMP or Carrington type solar event. It was made by national geographic so I would like to think it's pretty accurate. Of course a lot of it is unproven since it didn't happen yet...

While there is some drama / scare tactic components to that video, it brings up some things I had not considered. The transformers out in the field may not be easily and quickly replaced. I am sure the power plants and substations are fine; but the equipment outside of that is going to be gone and not just replaced a day or two later. Manufacturing at locations where the building aren't giant Faraday Cages are going to be damaged.

I had made the assumption that this stuff could be repaired quickly, no different than a major earthquake or hurricane. But the talking head on that show said a lot of the equipment is not manufactured in USA. I was actually not aware of that. 20 years ago when I was doing the SAP implementation at GPU Energy (3 Mile Island, PA Electric, NJ Edison) we didn't do the foreign trade module and I just figured that these big power companies must have contractors that manufacture the substations, transformers, etc. somewhere here in USA.

So the big question becomes - even though individually most preppers are good to go for a few years, how long can the average person hang tough? That talking head said cities can only make it 3 days. That's definitely not going to work well for them.

Have you folks seen a TV Series called The Last Ship? The foundation of that show is a zombie apocalypse, though theirs is a virus with no cure and not an EMP. Season 3 just ended. Everyone here would enjoy this show. The virus kills like 75% of the people in the world, and governments break down (including USA). I don't want to do any spoilers; so let's just say it does cover the trials and tribulations of keeping the country together, and how we have to deal with enemies that want to use this point in time as a trigger to change the dynamic of the power among countries.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

An EMP attack can indeed be horrible to all effected. There is a lot of great information out there, there is also a lot of really, really bad information out there.

If this is a fear or concern for you, I would suggest you do some serious and in-depth research into this threat. I have been researching this threat for a very, very long time.

Clearly you are worried about it, as am I.

To put in in context on the magnitude of this threat, think about the internet. Just the internet. If hackers or someone or some government either intentionally or through negligence take down the entire internet for any extended period of time, game over for many. Think about it, no banking transactions, no email, probably no tv, no news, no ebt cards, no welfare, many stores all go offline and most unable to conduct business, distribution of goods wouldn't happen, gas stations not replenished, utilities may go down etc etc. Eveything we do now is through the internet.... It would be really bad, mass riots, mayhem, looting, violence, trillions lost etc it would be horrible.

Now if there was actual physical damage down on top of all that to our infrastructure, even if an emp won't do half of what some experts say (dr. Peter pry, national geographic etc..) the consequences would be unfathomable to daily life.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

While there is some drama / scare tactic components to that video, it brings up some things I had not considered. The transformers out in the field may not be easily and quickly replaced. I am sure the power plants and substations are fine; but the equipment outside of that is going to be gone and not just replaced a day or two later. Manufacturing at locations where the building aren't giant Faraday Cages are going to be damaged.

I had made the assumption that this stuff could be repaired quickly, no different than a major earthquake or hurricane. But the talking head on that show said a lot of the equipment is not manufactured in USA. I was actually not aware of that. 20 years ago when I was doing the SAP implementation at GPU Energy (3 Mile Island, PA Electric, NJ Edison) we didn't do the foreign trade module and I just figured that these big power companies must have contractors that manufacture the substations, transformers, etc. somewhere here in USA.

So the big question becomes - even though individually most preppers are good to go for a few years, how long can the average person hang tough? That talking head said cities can only make it 3 days. That's definitely not going to work well for them.

Have you folks seen a TV Series called The Last Ship? The foundation of that show is a zombie apocalypse, though theirs is a virus with no cure and not an EMP. Season 3 just ended. Everyone here would enjoy this show. The virus kills like 75% of the people in the world, and governments break down (including USA). I don't want to do any spoilers; so let's just say it does cover the trials and tribulations of keeping the country together, and how we have to deal with enemies that want to use this point in time as a trigger to change the dynamic of the power among countries.

Read the book "lights out" by Ted koeppel.

It was fascinating and shocking at the same time. I was stunned how unprepared our government is for this type of contingency. He has access to interviews with very high level people for that book.

 

[Big John]

Yawn.........

 

[Snappo]

A gamma stream emanating from a black hole and what will come from an EMP are like comparing peas and watermelons. The stream from a black hole is more localized in circumference and we've never been in the path from it either. If we had been in the path from a close enough black hole the Earth would fry, astro physicists have stated that repeatedly. An EMP over NYC would be devastating. The power plant hardware may be well protected but the PC's the control them would not be. They are hardwired to the grid via electric lines and communication lines, they would get pulsed big time. Without that PC control the plants will shut down to avoid damage to them, but everyone will see the results. Not to mention all of the electronic goodies we have in our households, and the autonomous households. Any civilian comms, banking systems, etc etc. Just to repair grid (electric and comms lines) would be worse that what we've experienced from ice storms. Public transportation, the trucking companies, civilian transportation, all going to take a huge hit because of all the computerized bull shit and fly by wire. The North East was taken down by a solar storm not that long ago and that wasn't major.
I'm golden, 1971 GMC still running point ignition
I don't find an EMP attack likely, but it's plain foolish to rule it out as fear porn.

The PC's in that power plant are fine. The iPad in the parking lot is most probably gone. I agree that bank ATM's and whatnot are toast for sure. I didn't factor in enough time for repairing items that are non-military and outside of a Faraday Cage - I agree that it could be months before your power in your house turns back on. But the generator in your metal roof / metal wall barn will be fine and as long as you can fuel it you have power. I went diesel and have 1,000 gallons of home heat fuel I keep 50% full. If I knew the apocalypse was coming I could ask for 100% full. The emergency broadcast system would be operational. So those zombie FM radios with hand crank will get you the news (but it will be Uncle Sam's version of TASS). I assume EBS won't be letting me listen to Toby Keith and Willie Nelson. ;-(

I have summer vehicles and winter vehicles; so whatever is parked in the barn (metal roof, metal walls) should be good to go. I have pondered adding metal fencing to the inside walls of the barn. Not sure I need it though.

 

[Snappo]

Read the book "lights out" by Ted koeppel.

It was fascinating and shocking at the same time. I was stunned how unprepared our government is for this type of contingency. He has access to interviews with very high level people for that book.

The third part of the book - "surviving the aftermath" - is that interesting and educational?

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

The third part of the book - "surviving the aftermath" - is that interesting and educational?

I thought the entire book was good. I appreciated that it was an interesting take on a potential mega disaster written by a well respected guy. Ted Koppel isn't some fringe kook. The findings he came up with between an emp, well coordinated hacker attack, or physical attack on the grid all had a similar end result, which isn't good for our country.

 

[GOPerfect]

Clearly you are worried about it, as am I.

Yep. I am quite concerned. For those who are not, so be it. I tell friends and family all of the time, "I am prepared. I will survive, you are not so you will not survive!"

If I am wrong, oh well. If the non-believers are wrong, they will be dead!

 

[SigLady]

Which worries me because I don't think NK is very stable. If paranoid NK thinks we will pre empitvely strike them, what's holding them back? I also don't know whether China would prod NK behind the scenes to be the patsie and attack is to get them out of their way. If China uses NK to neutralize us China is free to take the entire Pacific basin.

And that's also not counting on Russia ever attacking us or Iran attacking either, both of which are threats.

This is setting up to be another Pearl Harbor scenario then? An asian country pre-emptively strikes us with the support from another country to make sure we don't get involved in another foreign conflict?

 

[shoot2much]

There isn't a civilian power plant in our country with 1 single circuit board that wasn't approved by DoD.

As someone who works in the utility and power generation industry, that's not entirely true.

 

[SigLady]

Clearly you are worried about it, as am I.

To put in in context on the magnitude of this threat, think about the internet. Just the internet. If hackers or someone or some government either intentionally or through negligence take down the entire internet for any extended period of time, game over for many. Think about it, no banking transactions, no email, probably no tv, no news, no ebt cards, no welfare, many stores all go offline and most unable to conduct business, distribution of goods wouldn't happen, gas stations not replenished, utilities may go down etc etc. Eveything we do now is through the internet.... It would be really bad, mass riots, mayhem, looting, violence, trillions lost etc it would be horrible.

Now if there was actual physical damage down on top of all that to our infrastructure, even if an emp won't do half of what some experts say (dr. Peter pry, national geographic etc..) the consequences would be unfathomable to daily life.

To me that's the most frightening thing- how in 20 years we became globally dependent on the web. People suddenly don't know how to do anything without it. That kind of dependence on ANYTHING is what makes humanity susceptible to more and more things. We're de-evolving at this point.

 

[shoot2much]

To me that's the most frightening thing- how in 20 years we became globally dependent on the web. People suddenly don't know how to do anything without it. That kind of dependence on ANYTHING is what makes humanity susceptible to more and more things. We're de-evolving at this point.

Prepping aside, it sure is nice to actually realize your point. If you can take a step back just at least for a few solid hours per day, and not use technology and just let yourself "be" there, in the moment, with friends or family or even by yourself, it's so peaceful. Then you think about something you wanted to look up earlier, but don't have your phone or a computer nearby...it's nice just not "knowing" for a bit. Keeps things in perspective, and is a valuable "meditation technique" (I'll call it that I suppose) to ensure you're prepared for the future--in more ways than just prepping for SHTF.

 

[Uzi]

Just wondering what the hell a cellphone would be needed for when all satellites and radio towers are down. I suppose an extra little light function...

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Just wondering what the hell a cellphone would be needed for when all satellites and radio towers are down. I suppose an extra little light function...

Take pictures, flashlight, how to videos, how to manuals, survival information, music etc...

 

[Uzi]

Take pictures, flashlight, how to videos, how to manuals, survival information, music etc...

How do you operate a fried computer chip to do any of those things?

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

How do you operate a fried computer chip to do any of those things?

Put an old one in a faraday cage to protect it along with a solar charger