Father And Son Lose Their Lives After Father Struggles To Chamber Round

[subsonic]

People Monday morning quarterback to get people thinking. We do it. The government does it after an investigation. Everyone does it. It's called trying to learn from mistakes. If no one ever Monday morning quarterbacked, we would never learn anything.

How many negligent discharge videos do we see that would never have happened if a gun wasn't being carried with a round in the chamber? Sure, blame the guy responsible, but that doesn't change the outcome. How many of these are experienced, trained gun enthusiasts who post on forums like this?
How many videos do you Monday-morning quarterback where a gun was successfully used in self defense (fired or not) carried with an empty chamber?
How many videos of fumbled guns carried without a round in the chamber do you analyze, where there was "no harm no foul" because the chamber was empty where it could have gone very wrong if one was chambered?

None of these would prove anything, except:
- Round in the chamber is an advantage in defensive response.
- Empty chamber is an advantage for preventing negligent discharge.
- Having a gun, round chambered or not, is usually (not always) a huge advantage over no gun in a self-defense situation.
- More training is better than less training.
- Not everyone has time to spend training all the time. As far as saving your life, time is better spent at the gym than the range.

Neither one is "factually" better for everyone at all times. This played-out topic is more tiresome than the caliber and shotgun load wars.

 

[Marine Cpl]

How many negligent discharge videos do we see that would never have happened if a gun wasn't being carried with a round in the chamber?

Not many in the grand scope of things considering that there are millions who do carry chambered without incident. Once you add all those people from the whole world carrying everyday, the accidents that happen are probably less than 1 percent if not less.

How many of these are experienced, trained gun enthusiasts who post on forums like this?

Again. See above. The percentage is probably so low it isn't even 1 percent.

How many videos do you Monday-morning quarterback where a gun was successfully used in self defense (fired or not) carried with an empty chamber?

None. Those are rare because gun encounters are rare. But the ones we do see usually are with chambered guns.

How many videos of fumbled guns carried without a round in the chamber do you analyze, where there was "no harm no foul" because the chamber was empty where it could have gone very wrong if one was chambered?

None. Again. Very rare.

 

[subsonic]

Not many in the grand scope of things considering that there are millions who do carry chambered without incident. Once you add all those people from the whole world carrying everyday, the accidents that happen are probably less than 1 percent if not less.

Again. See above. The percentage is probably so low it isn't even 1 percent.

None. Those are rare because gun encounters are rare. But the ones we do see usually are with chambered guns.

None. Again. Very rare.

Okay. So it's a balancing of rare events. And the videos we see dissected are sensational, not representative. For instance, someone privately fumbling a gun with an empty chamber is not likely to be filmed, shared, and commented upon.

Rate of dangerous negligent discharge incidents among concealed carriers had better be a hell of a lot lower than 1%. 1% would be hella unacceptable.

At the end of the day, individuals need to weigh their priorities for themselves, as responsible gun-owning adults. A soccer mom isn't the same thing as a cop on the beat or a soldier on patrol. If a soccer mom decides carrying chamber empty is for her you don't have "facts" to prove that her judgment is wrong.

 

[Podmonkey]

You carry a round in the chamber. This unfortunate video shows why.
You prevent negligent discharges by:
1: proper gun handling (keep the finger off the trigger).
2: using a proper holster with proper protection of the trigger guard. None of this soft nylon garbage.
3: Maintaining full awareness of whether the gun is loaded or not at all times.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If a soccer mom decides carrying chamber empty is for her you don't have "facts" to prove that her judgment is wrong.

Actually I do. I can say that her judgement is wrong because she deliberately chose not to make herself comfortable carrying a firearm in a ready condition.

My wife is going through that now as we speak. She was concerned at first. I explained to her that the only thing that'll make her Ruger LCP fire is if the trigger itself is pulled. I explained to her to never remove the firearm from the holster unless she was going to put it away and if she did remove it for whatever reason there is never a hurry to reholster it. Never. I explained to her that most negligent discharges happened when reholstering. She's been carrying it around the house to make herself comfortable and she's pretty damned comfortable now.

When it comes to firearms, it's the responsibility of the owner to become comfortable enough to handle them. if you choose not to become comfortable enough to handle them, you aren't a responsible gun owner and really aren't taking your self-defense seriously. Because if you did, you would make sure that you are able to use the tool that you thought was important enough to get.

 

[subsonic]

You carry a round in the chamber. This unfortunate video shows why.
You prevent negligent discharges by:
1: proper gun handling (keep the finger off the trigger).
2: using a proper holster with proper protection of the trigger guard. None of this soft nylon garbage.
3: Maintaining full awareness of whether the gun is loaded or not at all times.

I agree. And if you are carrying with a round in the chamber, that is what you should do.

So why do negligent discharges still happen? Why are they occasioned by people who know better, who know rules 1-3, who have even sanctimoniously lectured others on rules 1-3?

(EDIT: Actually, 3 is dangerous. It should be, treat a gun as if it were loaded at all times. With the exception of a gun you had immediately cleared for cleaning/disassembly etc.)

The fact is that keeping the chamber empty until there is a state of heightened readiness is a huge safety backstop for negligent discharge. That's a fact. If someone decides that they are willing to accept a slightly lower response time and higher chance of death in the event of a self-defensive gun use, in exchange for a reduced chance of injuring or killing themselves or another in a moment of operator error or stupidity, that is their choice. If someone makes that informed decision you can't tell them they are factually wrong. Well you can, but I'll still call you a smug dick. Negligent discharges do happen.

Actually I do. I can say that her judgement is wrong because she deliberately chose not to make herself comfortable carrying a firearm in a ready condition.

You're making an assumption that it's discomfort rather than considered judgment, which may not be true.

When it comes to firearms, it's the responsibility of the owner to become comfortable enough to handle them. if you choose not to become comfortable enough to handle them, you aren't a responsible gun owner and really aren't taking your self-defense seriously. Because if you did, you would make sure that you are able to use the tool that you thought was important enough to get.

Sometimes people who handle the guns the most are responsible for some of the stupidest, Darwin Award gun discharge accidents. This all-or-nothing attitude, my way or the highway attitude, I do not like, whether it's on youtube, in a gunshop, or wherever. That's not the ticket to increasing responsible gun ownership.

By the way, I don't advocate carrying with an empty chamber. I just think people should be more humble.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I agree. And if you are carrying with a round in the chamber, that is what you should do.

So why do negligent discharges still happen? Why are they occasioned by people who know better, who know rules 1-3, who have even sanctimoniously lectured others on rules 1-3?

(EDIT: Actually, 3 is dangerous. It should be, treat a gun as if it were loaded at all times. With the exception of a gun you had immediately cleared for cleaning/disassembly etc.)

The fact is that keeping the chamber empty until there is a state of heightened readiness is a huge safety backstop for negligent discharge. That's a fact. If someone decides that they are willing to accept a slightly lower response time and higher chance of death in the event of a self-defensive gun use, in exchange for a reduced chance of injuring or killing themselves or another in a moment of operator error or stupidity, that is their choice. If someone makes that informed decision you can't tell them they are factually wrong. Well you can, but I'll still call you a smug dick. Negligent discharges do happen.


You're making an assumption that it's discomfort rather than considered judgment, which may not be true.


Sometimes people who handle the guns the most are responsible for some of the stupidest, Darwin Award gun discharge accidents. This all-or-nothing attitude, my way or the highway attitude, I do not like, whether it's on youtube, in a gunshop, or wherever. That's not the ticket to increasing responsible gun ownership.

By the way, I don't advocate carrying with an empty chamber. I just think people should be more humble.

As soon as you leave your house you are in danger. That's the reason why you carry a firearm. If you weren't in danger you wouldn't carry one at all.

 

[subsonic]

As soon as you leave your house you are in danger. That's the reason why you carry a firearm. If you weren't in danger you wouldn't carry one at all.

Right, that's why I never go anywhere without my carbine shouldered, charged and safety off at all times.

 

[Marine Cpl]

And negligent discharges happen because people are negligent. Just like Podmonkey said. They buy cheap nylon holsters. They don't follow the safety rules and treat the firearm like if it's loaded all the time. They don't keep their finger off the trigger until they intend to fire it. Almost every negligent discharge is due to improper gun handling. And that includes people that are trained. Just because you are trained that doesn't mean that you're responsible.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Right, that's why I never go anywhere without my carbine shouldered, charged and safety off at all times.

Now you're being ridiculous.

 

[Shadow2]

Their is no difference of opinion I could agree with him 100% on a subject and he'd still be a pudd. My fathers dead over 15 years, I have no regrets and my dead father thinks he's a pudd.

Just because you have a difference in opinion doesn't mean that he is a "pudd" for it.
Spiritual fitness in this sense is rather a similar concept to mothers telling their children to always have clean underwear on.
If your time is up, don't go with regrets.
As hard as it was when my father passed it was a great comfort that there wasn't any unfinished business between us. Same concept here.

 

[subsonic]

Now you're being ridiculous.

I'm being ridiculous now? How else am I supposed to defend myself against the roaming hordes of hot-chambered-carrying criminals?

And negligent discharges happen because people are negligent. Just like Podmonkey said. They buy cheap nylon holsters. They don't follow the safety rules and treat the firearm like if it's loaded all the time. They don't keep their finger off the trigger until they intend to fire it. Almost every negligent discharge is due to improper gun handling. And that includes people that are trained. Just because you are trained that doesn't mean that you're responsible.

And maybe deciding to take the extra step and have the chamber empty could be someone's concept of a responsible decision. Sure sounds a lot more responsible than bleating about readiness and then sending a round through your nutsack while doing some idiotic gun handling. But I guess everyone has to have the same opinions and approaches and should spend an hour a day drilling or they aren't worthy to own a gun.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I'm being ridiculous now? How else am I supposed to defend myself against the roaming hordes of hot-chambered-carrying criminals?

And maybe deciding to take the extra step and have the chamber empty could be someone's concept of a responsible decision. Sure sounds a lot more responsible than bleating about readiness and then sending a round through your nutsack while doing some idiotic gun handling. But I guess everyone has to have the same opinions and approaches and should spend an hour a day drilling or they aren't worthy to own a gun.

No one here is saying that unless you're trained you aren't worthy. What we're saying is that you should know how to use it. What good is buying a gun for protection and you don't know how to load it? If you go through the trouble of knowing how to load it, you should go through the trouble of knowing the safety rules, and how and why a gun fires.

Failure to do that is irresponsible. A safety or an empty chamber is no excuse the handle a gun irresponsibly.

 

[subsonic]

No one here is saying that unless you're trained you aren't worthy. What we're saying is that you should know how to use it. What good is buying a gun for protection and you don't know how to load it? If you go through the trouble of knowing how to load it, you should go through the trouble of knowing the safety rules, and how and why a gun fires.

Failure to do that is irresponsible. A safety or an empty chamber is no excuse the handle a gun irresponsibly.

So you think the 74-year-old substitute who shot off a round in a 1st grade classroom didn't know how to load and use his gun? You think he was just too stupid to know that it goes bang when the trigger is pulled, or he just bought his pistol yesterday? If there wasn't a round in the chamber, he wouldn't have put a 1st grade classroom in danger. Fact. You can always point your finger at the operator, but if the operator didn't have a round chambered the gun would not go bang regardless of what stupid thing happened to the trigger.

So stop fucking berating other people who want to defend themselves and want the safety backstop of an empty chamber. What you do with your wife is your own business.

There but the grace of God go you. I'm sure you've never done anything stupid in your entire life. I'm sure plenty of these negligent discharges would swear they've never had a remotely close call with a firearm before either. Round in the chamber usually makes sense but different strokes for different folks.

 

[Marine Cpl]

So you think the 74-year-old substitute who shot off a round in a 1st grade classroom didn't know how to load and use his gun? You think he was just too stupid to know that it goes bang when the trigger is pulled, or he just bought his pistol yesterday? If there wasn't a round in the chamber, he wouldn't have put a 1st grade classroom in danger. Fact. You can always point your finger at the operator, but if the operator didn't have a round chambered the gun would not go bang regardless of what stupid thing happened to the trigger.

So stop fucking berating other people who want to defend themselves and want the safety backstop of an empty chamber. What you do with your wife is your own business.

There but the grace of God go you. I'm sure you've never done anything stupid in your entire life. I'm sure plenty of these negligent discharges would swear they've never had a remotely close call with a firearm before either. Round in the chamber usually makes sense but different strokes for different folks.

No. I think the 74 year old was just negligent. He put his finger on the f****** trigger or he reached into whatever bag he had it in and finger f*** the trigger. Or he shoved it into a holster without minding the trigger. We will never know.

But what we do know is that it wouldn't have happened if the chamber was empty. It also wouldn't have happened if he had no ammo inserted into the gun. And it also wouldn't have happened if he wasn't negligent and knew what the hell he was doing when he decided to finger f*** the gun. Basically what you're saying is that you have a license to be negligent because a chamber is empty. That's hogwash. The proper course of action is that you know what you are doing and not be negligent whenever you handle a gun. That you always mind a trigger at all times.

No professional ever carries on an empty chamber. What you are saying is that you should carry on an empty chamber in lieu of learning how your gun works and using your head when you decide to pick up or put down the gun with your finger on the trigger.

It's pretty damned simple. Keep your finger off the trigger and don't stuff your gun into anything without minding the trigger. A 7 year old can be taught that.

 

[nortatoga]

For someone uncomfortable carrying with a round chambered, a pistol with a safety might be helpful! But you would need to practice disengaging the safety as you draw the pistol to develop muscle memory.

 

[ECU Pirates]

No. I think the 74 year old was just negligent. He put his finger on the f****** trigger or he reached into whatever bag he had it in and finger f*** the trigger. Or he shoved it into a holster without minding the trigger. We will never know.

But what we do know is that it wouldn't have happened if the chamber was empty. It also wouldn't have happened if he had no magazine inserted into the gun. And it also wouldn't have happened if he wasn't negligent and knew what the hell he was doing when he decided to finger f*** the gun. Basically what you're saying is that you have a license to be negligent because a chamber is empty. That's hogwash. The proper course of action is that you know what you are doing and not be negligent whenever you handle a gun. That you always mind a trigger at all times.

No professional ever carries on an empty chamber. What you are saying is that you should carry on an empty chamber in lieu of learning how your gun works and using your head when you decide to pick up or put down the gun with your finger on the trigger.

Edited due to text to speech errors.

Still could have shot without a mag will. You should know that sir....

 

[Blimey]

I disagree with the conclusion of this video.

The mistake was ever drawing on these guys. You do not draw if a gun is already at you. Period. A round chambered would merely have increased the odds of him killing the robber, but the robber was already cocked and ready and started firing as soon as he saw the gun.

The proper response in all of this was to comply with the guys because they already had guns drawn, pointed. It was too late to do anything but comply.

 

[seezur]

He probably shouldn’t have drawn, but I agree that carrying without a round chambered doesn’t make a ton of sense.

When I started carrying I quickly realized behind the hip was very inconvenient for me, so I went to appendix. But with appendix carry you always hear about NDs or the gun “going off” and that made me apprehensive to carry chambered.

Eventually I had to just have faith in the design of the firearm and realize that “you’ll blow your nuts off!” is something old guys at the range say and in reality is essentially impossible as long as you don’t pull the trigger and purchase a proper holster.

To each their own, and I get why people can be hesitant to carry a chambered gun. I think you have to be honest with your own skill set and competency. I don’t keep a round chambered in my nightstand gun, but that’s because I don’t think it’ll make a difference. On the street where it’s a split second ordeal? Yeah I’m not going to waste time.

 

[Marine Cpl]

He probably shouldn’t have drawn, but I agree that carrying without a round chambered doesn’t make a ton of sense.

When I started carrying I quickly realized behind the hip was very inconvenient for me, so I went to appendix. But with appendix carry you always hear about NDs or the gun “going off” and that made me apprehensive to carry chambered.

Eventually I had to just have faith in the design of the firearm and realize that “you’ll blow your nuts off!” is something old guys at the range say and in reality is essentially impossible as long as you don’t pull the trigger and purchase a proper holster.

To each their own, and I get why people can be hesitant to carry a chambered gun. I think you have to be honest with your own skill set and competency. I don’t keep a round chambered in my nightstand gun, but that’s because I don’t think it’ll make a difference. On the street where it’s a split second ordeal? Yeah I’m not going to waste time.

I at one point though about not keeping a round chambered on my nightstand gun so that I don't grab it in the dark and accidentally pull the trigger but decided against it. I have a loose fitting remora holster for that that I can flick off one handed if need be and be ready to fire with a chambered round.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Still could have shot without a mag will. You should know that sir....

Edited. I meant ammo but you are correct and not correct. Some guns have magazine disconnect safeties.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Edited. I meant ammo but you are correct and not correct. Some guns have magazine disconnect safeties.

The old guy in the example had a Glock.

 

[Upstate43]

There is nothing wrong with carrying a pistol, chamber empty but magazine loaded. Does it allow for your response to be as quick as with a round chambered? NO, but it is certainly better than carrying nothing at all (which is exactly what most people in this country do).

Be willing to learn from other peoples' mistakes, but be wary of of online "experts" (to include those on youtube) who try to derive a steadfast moral or binary lesson (A is right, B is wrong) from each incident. Active Self Protection is somewhat entertaining and even perhaps somewhat educational at times, but the guy is a former Navy pog who took some self-defense courses after leaving the military and now monday-morning-quarterbacks shooting videos on youtube.

If you're going to take everything that guy (or anyone for that matter) says as gospel, I'd say you're incapable of thinking and making decisions on your own .... in that case, choosing between a chambered round vs. no chambered round should be the least of your worries.

 

[ECU Pirates]

There is nothing wrong with carrying a pistol, chamber empty but magazine loaded. Does it allow for your response to be as quick as with a round chambered? NO, but it is certainly better than carrying nothing at all (which is exactly what most people in this country do).

Be willing to learn from other peoples' mistakes, but be wary of of online "experts" (to include those on youtube) who try to derive a steadfast moral or binary lesson (A is right, B is wrong) from each incident. Active Self Protection is somewhat entertaining and even perhaps somewhat educational at times, but the guy is a former Navy pog who took some self-defense courses after leaving the military and now monday-morning-quarterbacks shooting videos on youtube.

If you're going to take everything that guy (or anyone for that matter) says as gospel, I'd say you're incapable of thinking and making decisions on your own .... in that case, choosing between a chambered round vs. no chambered round should be the least of your worries.

I love when people say “if you don’t carry chambered it’s just a club” derrrp. Also “you need more training” from the clowns who just happen to provide training for a price. Training won’t make someone who’s afraid to carry with one in the pipe all of the sudden feel safe about it. I don’t like to carry striker fired guns. It’s just me. No training will change that. I have had many over the years and just prefer a da/sa. If someone is nervous about carrying chambered they could wear the gun awhile and see if the trigger is pulled while in a quality holster. Of course it won’t be. Or they could look into a da/sa auto od a revolver.

 

[Carlos Hathcock]

One in the pipe will save your life.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Years ago my first carry gun was a 1911. I was afraid to carry cocked and locked. So what did I do? I carried on an empty chamber and magazine around the house doing shit to see if the safety would disengage. I trained myself. I didn’t go to any classes. After I realized that the safety wouldn’t disengage unless I disengaged it myself, I stopped doing it around the house and graduated to carrying properly outside of the house.

So I learned not to be scared. I taught myself. I didn’t spend a dime on it in a class. Maybe others are incapable of learning. I don’t really believe that though.

And I ‘ll give you one even better if me formerly carrying a 1911 isn’t surprise enough and I’m not ashamed to admit it. I was afraid of a rifle’s recoil prior to joining the military at 18 years of age. My dad had handguns but no rifles. A few outings at the rifle range changed that. Repetition and time is training.

When I say training, it doesn’t have to be a class. Anyone can train themselves to be comfortable handling something. My wife went through the same training as I took carrying an empty Ruger LCP around the house. “Draw but don’t fire!” After a few drills of that, she became comfortable drawing and reholstering without thinking that she was going to accidentally pull the trigger while doing so.