Firearms Myths!!!

[meketrefe]

Stopping power it is a rather arbitrary way to determine the lethality of a weapon or a round but it cannot be a myth by itself.
There are several ways to inmediatelly paralize, induce coma and death and a shot to the head is not the only way to disrupt the cns.
Certain rounds will do the same when centered in the upper torso and they achieve the same by sock in the nervous system combined with massive hidraulic pressure that stops the brain, vission and all control.

But even if one kills instantly it doesnt mean the threat is stopped like someone approaching in a vehicle so tactics and being able to shoot accurately while running for cover is as important as the "stopping power" or however you want to refer to rounds that carry brutal lethal force.

Another stupid thing he says is that subsonic, supersonic doesnt matter bla bla bla...

Well, speed is not just a natural built in penetrator but a power multiplier. So with the right tweminal design a supersonic bullet doesnt have to rely only on TC and wounding potential but it can induce shock by hydraulic pressure that, again is related to the above.
This is beyond the 9mm vs 45 mambo jambo and since there are other better and more powerful rounds for both small pistols and revolvers there is no myth.
Of course nobody sane is going to shoot once and wait see what happens but this discussion about "stopping power" and "subsonic vs supersonic does not matter" is total bs.
With many popular rifle bulllets and rounds the wounding effectivness goes drastically down below 1800 to 2100 fps at inpact and that is because of the diminishd capability to induce massive pressure aside from the wounding. This is all well known to professional hunters who look for instant kills.

 

[spat]

Stopping power it is a rather arbitrary way to determine the lethality of a weapon or a round but it cannot be a myth by itself.
There are several ways to inmediatelly paralize, induce coma and death and a shot to the head is not the only way to disrupt the cns.
Certain rounds will do the same when centered in the upper torso and they achieve the same by sock in the nervous system combined with massive hidraulic pressure that stops the brain, vission and all control.

But even if one kills instantly it doesnt mean the threat is stopped like someone approaching in a vehicle so tactics and being able to shoot accurately while running for cover is as important as the "stopping power" or however you want to refer to rounds that carry brutal lethal force.

Another stupid thing he says is that subsonic, supersonic doesnt matter bla bla bla...

Well, speed is not just a natural built in penetrator but a force multiplier. So with the right tweminal design a supersonic bullet doesnt have to rely only on TC and wounding potential but it can induce shock by hydraulic pressure that, again is related to the above.
This is beyond the 9mm vs 45 mambo jambo and since there are other better and more powerful rounds for both small pistols and revolvers there is no myth.
Of course nobody sane is going to shoot once and wait see what happens but this discussion about "stopping power" and "subsonic vs supersonic does not matter" is total bs.
With many popular rifle bulllets and rounds the wounding effectivness goes drastically down below 1800 to 2100 fps at inpact and that is because of the diminishd capability to induce massive pressure aside from the wounding. This is all well known to professional hunters who look for instant kills.

The other thing to remember about sub vs super sonic is that those speeds are quoted in air.

The speed of sound in tissue is much higher. I don't believe any round is super sonic in tissue.

Sub vs super sonic only matters for the exterior ballistics (and even then it's mostly to avoid trans sonic bullets and for use with suppressors) , as far as terminal ballistics goes it's all subsonic.

Edit: Yep, just looked it up. Note that this is quoted in m/s not ft/s

"The average propagation speed for sound in body tissue is 1540 m/s"

83.07.05: The Basic Concepts of Diagnostic Ultrasound1

teachersinstitute.yale.edu

 

[Podmonkey]

“Hollow Points“ or open tips, could you elaborate and give context to your general statement? (Not being a jerk, actually interested)

Don't engage him on this, he's like a cultist on the topic. And very wrong.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Don't engage him on this, he's like a cultist on the topic. And very wrong.

Dispute what I’ve said. Point by point. Otherwise it’s just words. So far no one has been able to intelligently dispute what I’ve said as of yet.

 

[meketrefe]

The other thing to remember about sub vs super sonic is that those speeds are quoted in air.

The speed of sound in tissue is much higher. I don't believe any round is super sonic in tissue.

Sub vs super sonic only matters for the exterior ballistics (and even then it's mostly to avoid trans sonic bullets and for use with suppressors) , as far as terminal ballistics goes it's all subsonic.

Edit: Yep, just looked it up. Note that this is quoted in m/s not ft/s

83.07.05: The Basic Concepts of Diagnostic Ultrasound1

teachersinstitute.yale.edu

The round might be supersonic or not depending on how fast it hits and what the bullet is made of. But yes you want that bullet to be subsonic and the key is not thst it is subsonic but that it goes from lets say from 1800fps to 800fps in a few inches that is what it actually creates the massive wounding and hidrostatic pressure through energy transfer.
One can trade a bit of the dupersonic speed for dismeter and grain and even a modest 35 with a flat metplat displaces a lot of fluid and pressure. In other words, dont even need a hollow point when you have enough section cmpounded with high speed and a flat meplat. The wounding is brutal, but most important, the cspacity for that pressure to disrupt the nervous system, blown blood veseels in the chest, nect and brsin and instsnt paralisis.
Placement is key like shooting a deer in the plexus (not the head) with the right high speed round. They either drop without reaction like an old rag.or buck once(a reflex) and down. No running of any kind unlike a heart shot. Same dynamics apply in a defensive situation in a human anatomy.
Neck or hesd shot might be best choice for smaller cslibers but might not be always possible and it is not the only way and that is my point.
So choose wisely guns, calibers, bullets and study and train the anatomy of what is the objective.
In ethical huntiing we put s lot of time and money in fast killing recipes so it is something studied in much detail and researched and shared among professionals and professional hunters that have taken thousands heads of gsme all over thr planet.
So the video "expert" himself misses some important aspects and facts about terminal bslistics.

 

[Twogunwilly]

myth: I don't need an ar-10 that shoots 475 bishop.

 

[ExMember_4526]

The round might be supersonic or not depending on how fast it hits and what the bullet is made of. But yes you want that bullet to be subsonic and the key is not thst it is subsonic but that it goes from lets say from 1800fps to 800fps in a few inches that is what it actually creates the massive wounding and hidrostatic pressure through energy transfer.
One can trade a bit of the dupersonic speed for dismeter and grain and even a modest 35 with a flat metplat displaces a lot of fluid and pressure. In other words, dont even need a hollow point when you have enough section cmpounded with high speed and a flat meplat. The wounding is brutal, but most important, the cspacity for that pressure to disrupt the nervous system, blown blood veseels in the chest, nect and brsin and instsnt paralisis.
Placement is key like shooting a deer in the plexus (not the head) with the right high speed round. They either drop without reaction like an old rag.or buck once(a reflex) and down. No running of any kind unlike a heart shot. Same dynamics apply in a defensive situation in a human anatomy.
Neck or hesd shot might be best choice for smaller cslibers but might not be always possible and it is not the only way and that is my point.
So choose wisely guns, calibers, bullets and study and train the anatomy of what is the objective.
In ethical huntiing we put s lot of time and money in fast killing recipes so it is something studied in much detail and researched and shared among professionals and professional hunters that have taken thousands heads of gsme all over thr planet.
So the video "expert" himself misses some important aspects and facts about terminal bslistics.

Thanks for keeping the discussion going. Interesting points to consider!

 

[spat]

The round might be supersonic or not depending on how fast it hits and what the bullet is made of. But yes you want that bullet to be subsonic and the key is not thst it is subsonic but that it goes from lets say from 1800fps to 800fps in a few inches that is what it actually creates the massive wounding and hidrostatic pressure through energy transfer.
One can trade a bit of the dupersonic speed for dismeter and grain and even a modest 35 with a flat metplat displaces a lot of fluid and pressure. In other words, dont even need a hollow point when you have enough section cmpounded with high speed and a flat meplat. The wounding is brutal, but most important, the cspacity for that pressure to disrupt the nervous system, blown blood veseels in the chest, nect and brsin and instsnt paralisis.
Placement is key like shooting a deer in the plexus (not the head) with the right high speed round. They either drop without reaction like an old rag.or buck once(a reflex) and down. No running of any kind unlike a heart shot. Same dynamics apply in a defensive situation in a human anatomy.
Neck or hesd shot might be best choice for smaller cslibers but might not be always possible and it is not the only way and that is my point.
So choose wisely guns, calibers, bullets and study and train the anatomy of what is the objective.
In ethical huntiing we put s lot of time and money in fast killing recipes so it is something studied in much detail and researched and shared among professionals and professional hunters that have taken thousands heads of gsme all over thr planet.
So the video "expert" himself misses some important aspects and facts about terminal bslistics.

My point was just that the speed of sound in tissue is over 5000 f/s so all rounds are subsonic in the terminal phase. All things being equal, faster is better of course, but the speed of sound in air just isn't relevant to terminal performance.

 

[meketrefe]

My point was just that the speed of sound in tissue is over 5000 f/s so all rounds are subsonic in the terminal phase. All things being equal, faster is better of course, but the speed of sound in air just isn't relevant to terminal performance.

I understand but the speed is not a constant and that is the whole point. It might be 2000fps in inch nr.1 and then 500fps in inch nr. 8
What is relevant is the speed when that bullet hits and how fast it slows down allowing for a fast transfer of energy.
So it is not the speed inside the target but the amount of "deceleration", radius of the wave (tc), and the resulting pressure
wave that in the case of many supersonic impacts, produces neural damage, instant comma and death. This is what makes modern high power rifles so lethal even in small bores.

Momentum combined with speed at impact is the best way to guarantee fast killing. As section goes up the impact speed can come slightly
down with dramatic effects starting with 35 and 375 bores where even a flat meplat can displace a lot of fluid. Of course with proper placement
since a brutal round in the leg is not going to reach the cns.

There is a monumental difference from that 35 bullet strking at 1900fps vs. 900fps. In fact many bullet manufactures issue warning labels for
bullets to work best at certain speed thresholds that means, faster speeds even less penetration due tot he optimal activation of the terminal
design for the bullet. Many hollow points are designed to work great at even slow speeds and they are very effective and wounding but not so much at inducing hidraulic shock at slow speeds.
Speed going too slow you might have more penetration but then end up with pin-hole wounding and no shock. An AK and certain fmjs
will do that at a longer than average distance and that is why slow-moving light-for-caliber (low SD) rounds have been displaced out of service by faster rounds.


Faster speed = better activation = faster more dramatic displacement (even with less penetration)

For example...

 

[Marine Cpl]

My point was just that the speed of sound in tissue is over 5000 f/s so all rounds are subsonic in the terminal phase. All things being equal, faster is better of course, but the speed of sound in air just isn't relevant to terminal performance.

If you cannot measure speed in air, you cannot

I understand but the speed is not a constant and that is the whole point. It might be 2000fps in inch nr.1 and then 500fps in inch nr. 8
What is relevant is the speed when that bullet hits and how fast it slows down allowing for a fast transfer of energy.
So it is not the speed inside the target but the amount of "deceleration", radius of the wave (tc), and the resulting pressure
wave that in the case of many supersonic impacts, produces neural damage, instant comma and death. This is what makes modern high power rifles so lethal even in small bores.

Momentum combined with speed at impact is the best way to guarantee fast killing. As section goes up the impact speed can come slightly
down with dramatic effects starting with 35 and 375 bores where even a flat meplat can displace a lot of fluid. Of course with proper placement
since a brutal round in the leg is not going to reach the cns.

There is a monumental difference from that 35 bullet strking at 1900fps vs. 900fps. In fact many bullet manufactures issue warning labels for
bullets to work best at certain speed thresholds that means, faster speeds even less penetration due tot he optimal activation of the terminal
design for the bullet. Many hollow points are designed to work great at even slow speeds and they are very effective and wounding but not so much at inducing hidraulic shock at slow speeds.
Speed going too slow you might have more penetration but then end up with pin-hole wounding and no shock. An AK and certain fmjs
will do that at a longer than average distance and that is why slow-moving light-for-caliber (low SD) rounds have been displaced out of service by faster rounds.


Faster speed = better activation = faster more dramatic displacement (even with less penetration)

For example...

View attachment 62555

All that is correct with rifles but with pistols, speed isn’t relevant unless the pistol round is going over 2000 fps.

 

[Robin]

Probably the biggest myth of all.
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Robin

 

[meketrefe]

If you cannot measure speed in air, you cannot

All that is correct with rifles but with pistols, speed isn’t relevant unless the pistol round is going over 2000 fps.

Why 2000fps?
Terminal ballistics and the bullet do not care where the bullet comes from and whether it is a pistol, a rifle, a musket or an airgun.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Why 2000fps?
Terminal ballistics and the bullet do not care where the bullet comes from and whether it is a pistol, a rifle, a musket or an airgun.

Pistol bullets below 2000 fps only disrupt tissue that it actually comes in contact with. The temporary stretch cavity is small and snaps back to the actual bullet size.

Above 2000 fps, the temporary stretch cavity upon impact is stretched beyond it’s elasticity limits because the pressure wave is so large that it causes the wound to be much more massive than the bullet’s size. And if it’s a hollow point stopping and not going through it’s even bigger since the temporary stretch cavity is larger compared to ball round.

 

[Saltwater60]

Guns kill people. Biggest myth out there.

 

[IrishMick]

Except .45 ACP. It creates a cavity that your soul will fall out of after it kills it!

 

[spat]

If you cannot measure speed in air, you cannot

All that is correct with rifles but with pistols, speed isn’t relevant unless the pistol round is going over 2000 fps.

What is magic about 2000 ft/s ?

The speed of sound in air is a very specific velocity that is around 1100 f/s and varies with atmospheric conditions. Under conditions where it is exactly 1100 objects traveling 1090 behave very differently to objects traveling 1110. That small change in velocity makes a dramatic difference in the aerodynamic properties of the object.

There is no drastic change in the properties in tissue with velocity for any realistic projectile.

A graph of drag vs velocity for a given projectile in air shows a sharp discontinuity at mach 1. A graph in tissue for anything below 5000 f/s will be smooth and continuous. Drag is one way to measure the transfer of energy to the medium.

 

[Marine Cpl]

What is magic about 2000 ft/s ?

The speed of sound in air is a very specific velocity that is around 1100 f/s and varies with atmospheric conditions. Under conditions where it is exactly 1100 objects traveling 1090 behave very differently to objects traveling 1110. That small change in velocity makes a dramatic difference in the aerodynamic properties of the object.

There is no drastic change in the properties in tissue with velocity for any realistic projectile.

A graph of drag vs velocity for a given projectile in air shows a sharp discontinuity at mach 1. A graph in tissue for anything below 5000 f/s will be smooth and continuous. Drag is one way to measure the transfer of energy to the medium.

The faster the projectile, the bigger the shockwave. The bigger the shockwave, the more your tissue stretches. After 2000 fps, the temporary stretch cavity is so large that your tissues lose their elasticity and the temporary stretch cavity is expanded past it’s limits to the point that the wound becomes permanent.

Think of a rubber band. If you stretch it a little and let go, it retracts back to it’s normal size. That’s what happens with slow moving pistol rounds. But if you stretch it too much, it tears. That’s what happens when a bullet goes over 2000 fps. Over 2000 fps, you just stretched the rubber band past it’s elasticity limits until it snapped thus making the wound bigger than the projectile itself. That’s why he wants caused by pistols which tend to have bigger bullets than rifles are way smaller than wounds caused by rifles.

 

[meketrefe]

Pistol bullets below 2000 fps only disrupt tissue that it actually comes in contact with. The temporary stretch cavity is small and snaps back to the actual bullet size.

Above 2000 fps, the temporary stretch cavity upon impact is stretched beyond it’s elasticity limits because the pressure wave is so large that it causes the wound to be much more massive than the bullet’s size. And if it’s a hollow point stopping and not going through it’s even bigger since the temporary stretch cavity is larger compared to ball round.

Agaiin. Why 2000 fps and not 1800 or 2200? What bullet?
Did you read this somewhere or just guessed?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Agaiin. Why 2000 fps and not 1800 or 2200? What bullet?
Did you read this somewhere or just guessed?

Some say it’s 2100 fps based on their testing. Some say 1800. It’s somewhere around the 2000 fps mark. All tissues are different in a body but it’s around that average velocity. 2000 fps is said to be the average velocity not the definitive velocity.

 

[meketrefe]

Some say it’s 2100 fps based on their testing. Some say 1800. It’s somewhere around the 2000 fps mark. All tissues are different in a body but it’s around that average velocity. 2000 fps is said to be the average velocity not the definitive velocity.

OK. I am guilty of that too because in my personal experience rifle bullets up to 33 caliber I would say are more efficient
if left above 2100 or so threshold as the absolute minimum if one is looking for massive shock. But with all that said
the smaller the caliber the more challenging it becomes just becuase of the section alone and how the bullet actually
activates, if it is mushroom, fragmentation or tumbling. In those small calibers massive speeds is best and keep weight
matched to caliber and body type so anything below 6.5 or 277 is going to be a tricky business just because of bullet assortment
for game where the 277 starts to get serious.
And for this you have anything from the popular 30-40 grain type of casing to the 270 and then into fractional or even full
magnums that get into the hypervelocity game like the weatherby original philosopy.

But, back to pistols...

As we know a 30-30 ammunition hitting deer (or for defense) with a 170-190gr flat round nose bullet hitting down to 1800 fps
is pretty capable of inducing shock with proper placement.
So by the same token a 44 magnum pistol with a 200gr hitting at 1700 to 1600fps produces the same or even more dramatic effect
even when hunting from a handgun and obviously depending on the bullet like a all copper hp.
The reason for this is because as the section goes up the velocity can come down and since there is plenty of momentum and even
with a fat meplat there is a very rapid transfer and consequent high pressure wave.
The same way a 300gr casull striking as low as 1500 and 1400fps not only produces brutal wounding but also shock.
The reason for large caliber guns to have the heaviest loads is because of the need for deep penetration on very large or dangerous
game but one could take that round and make it a lighter faster moving that is going to provide faster transfer and less penetration
that otherwise would be energy loss (out the back) due to the smaller nature of the target like a white tail or defense.
So if one has a .70 caliber slug even at 1oz of lower this will induce catastrophic neural disruption and damage at moderate 1300
and 1200 impact speeds. Obviosly is even more grain but not so much that energy is wasted in over penetration. That is the key.
Thus the important of the design, that even, even meplats can displace a lot of fluid very fast.
I have the 44mag but also ask @Darth what his 500 S&W will do to an upper torso even in speeds as slow as 1300 including over penetration
that is a given with a Grizzly gun.

So when we talk about calibers like the 35 and 375 and above a whole new range of possibilities present themselves.
That is why these along with many others have a great reputation of fast killers not just because of the massive wounding but
the shock inducing potential.

It has been my observation that the 35 bore even with grains of 125-150, when used above 1500fps it dramatically increases
the effectivity of the round in all aspects of the shooting. Flatter shooting, less deflection in glass but also when you approach
the 700ft-lb and those larger than usual speeds they produce more a lot more pressure than slower moving calibers.
Obviously with a 9mm bullet the placement is going to be more critical close to the spinal cord or upper torso or neck but it defenetly
can provoke instant collapse even w/o touching the spine.

So we should not put artificial impact thresholds to pistol bullets because we have so many calibers, bullets designs and possibilities.

Speed of Killing = Wounding Potential + Shock Potential.
Wounding can come without shock but if you design the formula with shock potential it will come with lethal wounding, at least 99.9% of the time. Most bullet shock instantly induced commas follow a quick death.
Many ethical hunters spend a great deal of time finding formulas for instant dispatching or they use well proven formulas that
do both. In some cases is a must like a big game hunter in Africa. That is where those massive magnums come in with the flat meplats
and massive speed and weight. You do not have the luxury of waiting for a charging buffalo to die, it will kill you first.
so if you take the massive amount of powder and grain required for more penetration the principals are all the same as discussed
above.

Of course if one has the opportunity one should shoot the head but if not possible there are other ways to induce that fast response
of the neural system and that is why I added to this thread.

This is nothing new really. We discussed this in this and other forums many times.

When I chose the 35 for my last AR wildcat it was for this very same reason. And we our dear fried Terry and I tested in the barriers and media before we decided on some hunting bullets and loads. Sadly terry left us after a long sickness so we never got a chance or myself the mood to explore more with pistol bullets.

In the end the key is: know your firearms, know your bullets and properties, know the anatomy of whatever you are hunting (or defense) and shoot well.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[MuttCat]

Penetration? Did I miss something?

 

[meketrefe]

Penetration? Did I miss something?

Sorry I dont follow. Penetration where, what?