Modean
.223 Rem
I as a citizen have a duty to retreat when I feel threatened before I can use deadly force. At least under NY law.
FL cops burst into wrong apartment killing a US airmen for defending his home
- Thread starter Saltwater60
- Start date
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
The officer absolutely DID NOT screw up. It was the gun owner. He made a mistake that was fatal .
That is what you do not understand. If that was an off duty cop who got shot in this scenario, I would tell you that the off duty cop screwed up.
If that was a plain clothes cop who came on to the scene and opened the door with a gun in his hand like that , he would have screwed up.
And most real cops would tell you that. If you work a plainclothes unit , it is drilled into how the other cops might not and often do not know who you are .
A story a friend told me of when he was a NCO in charge of a range in the military was when they had foreign army officer come for training . The foreign officer innocently turned around and flagged the people with his weapon , and my friend clocked him. When he was called to the carpet on it , he told him what the foreign officer innocently did . They said the foreign officer was at fault , carry on.
What happened here is a similar but more tragic mistake . The gun owner made a mistake . Instead of acknowledging that , you guys are like the people who shout “ the officer should have known it was a toy gun” eventhough the orange tip was painted black to make it look real.
How about asking how to minimize this from happening again on your part as the gun owner? Learn what his innocent mistake was and how to prevent it .
You're just not accepting the fact that it's not ok to shoot an armed citizen just because he has a gun.
That fact doesn't give an officer or government official carte blanche to start blasting.
Being a cop is hard. It's a hard job. One of the reasons is to effectively do it, you have to accept the fact that there may be things that make you uncomfortable and if you're unable to handle it you shouldn't be a cop. As a cop you are going to encounter armed citizens. An individual holding a gun (not pointed at you but the ground) who you have yet to even engage in conversation or commands is not ok to just start blasting. Seriously it's like this guy was trained to the point of "see gun, start blasting, give command to drop gun".
It's 100% wrong and unequivocally so that a police officer shows up to a citizens residence and when they open their door are blasted. Anyone defending those actions is so tone deaf and there's no point in further arguing it.
The victim could have handled the situation differently however that's not his fault he's dead. We're not going to victim shame him or shift the fact that the cop fucked up to blame the victim, well if only the victim watched a YouTube video he would have known the secret code on how to handle this situation.
It's the nervous cop and his itchy trigger finger over reacting.
Bigfoot
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
Hello, it is not that he is armed . It’s that he has the gun in his hand and can easily shoot the officer if the officer does not shoot.
You aren’t getting it . We encounter armed “ good guys “ who we don’t know is a good guy yet often . Plainclothes or undercover cop, off duty cop or federal agent , and yes, armed citizen or retired LE .
Almost every real and active cop has been on both sides of that situation. Do you think we want to shoot an off duty cop , or other good guy ( average CCW, fed, corrections etc )?
I have had off duty incidents where I had to pull out my gun. Why wasn’t I shot? In large part I knew what and what not to do .
Notice that is a question almost none of you is asking .
Why do think if the police show up at my door the response would be any different? I don’t know most of the local cops and they certainly don’t know my house.
I don’t carry a badge anymore . So why don’t think I believe I won’t get shot by a cop in a similar circumstance.
No one is asking that question
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TEOTWAWKI inc.
.338 Win Mag
I always answer the door with a gun in my hand. I guess I deserve to die too.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
So, you're saying the kid should have shot the cop right away since he was standing there with his gun drawn?
Modean
.223 Rem
This is the part you can't seem to wrap you mind around: YOU ARE NOT EFFING JUDGE DREDD!! I give no shits as to what the "blue book" says. If it says killing an innocent citizen is ok, then the "book" is trash! You are why people hate the police. An innocent man is dead at the hands of an officer who shot him 6 times very much on purpose. No amount of "I was just obeying orders" justifies that. Thank the gods you aren't still out there being a menace to your community.
Prison, after some time on the breaking wheel. They shot an killed an innocent person in their own fucking home.
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
I am saying that action beats reaction even if the person has their gun drawn and aimed at the other person.
If someone broke into your house and you shot him, would you be justified ?
What if that person went to the wrong house and thought they were invited there. Would that gun owner be justified no matter how tragic it was , that an innocent kid got killed ?
The anti gunners would be screaming like you guys are now how an innocent person got killed and to get rid of guns .
And your answer to our problem is , well, the cop should just die . Not a realistic solution especially when it could have been an interruption of a domestic murder suicide , a home invasion robbery , etc for all the officer knew at the time .
It’s still amazing how none of you have even asked what the gun owner should have done . Instead you want the cop to instantly know that person is the home owner , a good guy , has no malice in their heart , isn’t a threat despite the gun in his hand . None of which the officer in this case knew.
Acer-m14
.950 JDJ
we need a law that says cops cant shoot till they are shot at first ..
that will fix this whole problem ..
acorn
that will fix this whole problem ..
acorn
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
Yep. Just dead cops. That’s your answer.
Acer-m14
.950 JDJ
Some jobs have more risks than others.
Truck drivers have to try to avoid getting killed daily too.
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
No one took the job “to be shot at@ and least of all, “to be shot”.
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
Enough of us die or get shot and maimed already .
And yes, truck drivers try to avoid getting killed too. It’s not the same to compare .
How about if the law was you can’t shoot a burglar until he shoots at you first . That’s a fair comparison
Or how about if this was a stand your ground state and the driver of car you just had a fender bender with comes out of his car suddenly with a gun in hand. Are you going to wait ? Maybe . But would you be justified? Most likely .
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spat
.700 Nitro Express
Strange that they are the only profession that just accepts that they will kill people and think they shouldn't face consequences for it.
More dead cops is certainly tragic.
But so are dead innocent civilians.
And only one of those groups is paid to take that risk.
And only one of those groups is choosing to go into harms way.
So, no, you shouldn't be putting other people at risk for your own safety. You should just go home if you can't avoid that.
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I spoke with a couple of SWAT guys that I used to work with, one leads a team and the other one has been on the team fir five years...
Both agree that the officer should not have shot when he did. Both agreed that his training was lacking and that he had no control of his emotions.
Both agree that the officer should not have shot when he did. Both agreed that his training was lacking and that he had no control of his emotions.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
So, 2 strangers meet under frightening circumstances. Neither of them have malevolent motives.
Both have their guns drawn because they are concerned about the danger.
One of them ends up dead.
So far, sounds like just bad luck.
Until you acknowledge that one of them was at his own home minding his own business and the other guy sought out the encounter.
When you are the one who seeks out the conflict, you are not the good guy.
You don't knock on a man's front door with your gun drawn unless you are looking for a fight. It doesn't matter how you're dressed.
If the guy who fired was some random neighbor checking out the noise with his gun drawn, you would rightly excoriate him for his bad judgement and would agree he deserves prison time for it.
The badge is not an excuse for behavior that would not be tolerated from anyone else.
1341
.40 S&W
Interesting, what do we have here?
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
The gun owner is the one who screwed up. . And doctors kill people everyday without consequences.
Being paid to take risks is different than being different than being paid to be killed.
You have just told us to die with that rule of engagement. What do you think the criminals would do? And guess what, that rule engagement would eventually filter down to all CCW .
And it was the gun owner’s mistake .
Holding a gun at your side only makes an accidental discharge hitting the person less, not the threat of it being intentionally used . It’s not much different than just having the finger off the trigger. It can be brought into action too fast to make a difference as not to be that threat .
You still haven’t asked what should have the gun owner should have done . And that is the real problem here.
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
When someone “seeks” the conflict isn’t the good guy?
Are you kidding? The cop was called there . A Witness guided the officer there .
And yes, being a police officer going to the door makes a difference. You can’t have it both ways. First people say no to the “no knock warrants “ and when the officer knocks — you won’t know if it’s a search warrant or otherwise until you answer the door or they break in.
The officer was there on official business. He is supposed to seek out the conflict .
That is a big difference between good guy and bad guy stuff here. That police officer only knows that people are reporting a disturbance . That “ disturbance “could be and often has been a domestic violence issue including a murder/suicide, home invasion ( which can be robbery and/or rape). The officer does not know what he is walking into even on a simple disturbance call. I had to wrestle a gun out of someone’s hand who drew it when we knocked on his door and he opened it . He panicked and thought we were there because he was a drug dealer ( we had no idea ). If he had opened the door and just said “ Okay, officer. No problem “ , we would have never known.
By the way , I still haven’t heard what was the disturbance. One loud enough for the neighbors to call. Video game , yelling at a loved one on the phone or a possible mental breakdown? We know we won’t hear the truth with Ben Crump on the case. He’s the one who put out the false info that the officer went to the wrong house
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
He never pointed the gun at the officers either
spat
.700 Nitro Express
That *is* the rule of engagement for all CCW.
A single standard, that is all I ask. No more, no less.
And doctors do kill people, it's an unavoidable consequence of any job where you must make life or death judgements. But doctors do not expect to do it without consequences. That is why they carry millions of dollars of malpractice insurance.
They manage to do their job without a special exemption giving them immunity.
There are many other professions that risk their lives more than cops, that make split second life or death decisions more than cops. But only cops (and government in general) thinks they should be exempt from the consequences of bad judgment.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
If it's OK for an officer to shoot someone for just holding a gun, then every officer who unholsters is employing deadly force.
One standard about what constitutes deadly force. That's what the law says, and that's what we should have.
Looking the other way because the guy with the drawn gun has a badge is an abomination against the rules of a civil society.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Yea, dude was sitting home minding his business.
Another dude injected himself into that situation and killed the first guy.
That makes the second guy the bad guy.
If the cop had knocked on the door with his gun still in the holster, everyone would still be alive.
Unless the call was for a violent crime in progress, then the cop should not have had a drawn weapon.
And honestly, cops do not generally stop crimes in progress, it's such a rare event that they shouldn't even attempt it anymore. They cause way more problems than they solve.
If you think the situation is so risky you need to stand outside a door with a drawn gun, then you shouldn't be going in without a swat team.
FrankenCub
.338 Win Mag
And you're answer is shoot first, dead civilians don't matter to, being part of the ruling class. Could be a dad playing airsoft with his kids, fuck him, dirty serf.....
You probably would have shot someone open carrying in public.
1341
.40 S&W
I've looked at the video a couple of times and his weapon was holstered until he saw the gun.
I'm still trying to figure out who said step back to right before he drew his weapon.
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
That is a stupid comparison! Shame on you.
Robin
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
Cops get sued all the time for right or wrong . You have little or not proper knowledge on what qualified immunity is.
And if one did what doctors do all the time , they would be up for involuntary manslaughter or worse. Did the doctor who cut off the wrong leg get criminally charged ? How many doctors are sued for what a different doctor did. Cops are sued all the time for the actions of a different cop.
spilt second life and death decisions where the decision maker’s and/or other lives are on the line , with very little mental preparation before hand , who but the military has that ? And the military generally has time to prep for such decisions. To decide to kill to save other lives.
Go ask some cops who were both combat veterans and cops ( real cops and not a hospital security guard with a badge) which was harder. I have . Out of the 17 cops who were combat veterans which was harder . Only one said his combat time was harder . Why, I asked . There was a sense of clarity and less bs.