For the First Time in My Life (possibility of having to use lethal force to defend my family and possibly my country)

[Doc8404]

Once again, not reading carefully. In one situation I described a situation where it would be reasonable to run way. In the other I described a situation where you are trapped.

Nice to know that YOU will have control over the police/DA/Grand Jury in this situation.

Like I said earlier, lots of people have perfect scenarios in their heads. It's all daydreaming however. It's never going to happen like you think it is.

YOU are going to be a dangerous LEO.
Or enhanced security guard.
you never did clarify.

 

[Cooolone]

The problem is in that split second you had to decide, the DA's office will have unlimited time to decide if you acted properly. That is why you must know the law throughly. It must be second nature. You must know exactly what you can and cannot do. Know it so well that you don't even have to think about it. Reading it on google one time is not going to cut it. Not every case will be so clear cut. Someone trying to rob you with a pocket knife will not be treated to same as someone who has you backed into a corner with a machete. In one case you'll be in trouble for not running away and in the other you couldn't run away. There are just too many factors to make concrete statements online. All you can do it be mentally prepared.

There's a lot of wrong with this post! And for the matter, represents exactly what I said, that you're thinking too much and think you know what will happen. That somehow you should hold a folding knife and machete in different levels of threat when it's just not so!

You think I googled this shit, nice try, just another assumption that makes you even more incorrect! I don't have time to argue when you're trying to scrutinize my post, when you're saying exactly what I said is wrong, and will get you killed (IMO)!

For the matter, I think a folding knife is a lot more dangerous than a machete, because the action required to use it, a machete lends more ability to defend against, yes, even empty handed! Whereas a knife is more nimble and has more angles it can be utilized with and strikes come with quicker speed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not playing with either if I'm on the wrong end of one! But that said, I'm not going to predispose my thoughts as to what I'd do... I would just do it! And I won't be thinking for a split second ANY thoughts other than stop/remove the treat! Period! Don't care about DA's, Grand Juries, NYS Penal Code or anything else other than living! And nobody can or will be able to tell me after the fact that what I did was wrong, or I should've done this, or that... I don't give a shit! And before you say it's easy to say... I'll remind you that I grew up in NY Shitty, been mugged, robbed, in gang fights, had a gun to my head in a robbery and a few dozen other scenarios! So I've used exactly what I say I'd use again! And I've never had an issue, thank God of course!
And thanking God too, that I'm here talking about it! And yeah, I put more than one in a hospital (back in the day) and been sued, and nothing came from those either! Just know your shit, but don't get so wrapped up in it, that it will cause to to freeze or think when you should be acting, not contemplating!

Stay Safe out there! Don't sleep! Don't be a sheep!

Best Regards!

 

[spat]

The problem is in that split second you had to decide, the DA's office will have unlimited time to decide if you acted properly. That is why you must know the law throughly. It must be second nature. You must know exactly what you can and cannot do. Know it so well that you don't even have to think about it. Reading it on google one time is not going to cut it. Not every case will be so clear cut. Someone trying to rob you with a pocket knife will not be treated to same as someone who has you backed into a corner with a machete. In one case you'll be in trouble for not running away and in the other you couldn't run away. There are just too many factors to make concrete statements online. All you can do it be mentally prepared.

You are making this way too complicated.

At the present time, it's simple. Do not use deadly force unless you do not have another choice.

If you do that, then what the law says is irrelevant for your immediate action. You're not going to stand there and let them murder you, regardless of what the law says.

So, act as if you're definitly going to prison if you have to defend yourself, and only do so if that's the best alternative.

If you follow that plan, then it's only your action *after* the immediate danger is over that matter. For that, the above advice is good. Generally it boils down to keep your mouth shut and get a good lawyer.

 

[Chevusa]

There's a lot of wrong with this post! And for the matter, represents exactly what I said, that you're thinking too much and think you know what will happen. That somehow you should hold a folding knife and machete in different levels of threat when it's just not so!

You think I googled this shit, nice try, just another assumption that makes you even more incorrect! I don't have time to argue when you're trying to scrutinize my post, when you're saying exactly what I said is wrong, and will get you killed (IMO)!

For the matter, I think a folding knife is a lot more dangerous than a machete, because the action required to use it, a machete lends more ability to defend against, yes, even empty handed! Whereas a knife is more nimble and has more angles it can be utilized with and strikes come with quicker speed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not playing with either if I'm on the wrong end of one! But that said, I'm not going to predispose my thoughts as to what I'd do... I would just do it! And I won't be thinking for a split second ANY thoughts other than stop/remove the treat! Period! Don't care about DA's, Grand Juries, NYS Penal Code or anything else other than living! And nobody can or will be able to tell me after the fact that what I did was wrong, or I should've done this, or that... I don't give a shit! And before you say it's easy to say... I'll remind you that I grew up in NY Shitty, been mugged, robbed, in gang fights, had a gun to my head in a robbery and a few dozen other scenarios! So I've used exactly what I say I'd use again! And I've never had an issue, thank God of course!
And thanking God too, that I'm here talking about it! And yeah, I put more than one in a hospital (back in the day) and been sued, and nothing came from those either! Just know your shit, but don't get so wrapped up in it, that it will cause to to freeze or think when you should be acting, not contemplating!

Stay Safe out there! Don't sleep! Don't be a sheep!

Best Regards!

I think you're reading too much into the weapon. My point was more of the situation. If you can make a decision between running for your life or pulling a gun ... you better start running! At the end of the day it is not you who will determine reasonableness. That will be decided by others.

 

[dwa12479]

Negative. Slow down and read. I said there is no difference. The charge is the charge is the charge. It's irrelevant who lodged it. The outcome will be the same.

You'd be surprised. Either way, will it matter if your charges came from a cop or a DA? What would the difference be in your sentencing? None.

I read. And read carefully. You asked if it would matter who the charges came from, a cop or a DA. Facts are...the cop can't bring charges. Your understanding of the system is flawed. Period. Yet you continue to spout nonsensical interpretations of A35. Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself now.

 

[Chevusa]

I read. And read carefully. You asked if it would matter who the charges came from, a cop or a DA. Facts are...the cop can't bring charges. Your understanding of the system is flawed. Period. Yet you continue to spout nonsensical interpretations of A35. Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself now.

Do you need to be put to bed? You are misrepresenting and avoiding the point. The cop will arrest when they have probable cause. Their understanding of the law will determine if there is an initial arrest. That arrest will start the process. You somehow thought that is mattered who the charge came from. That is your point and that is incorrect. DA/ Grand Jury/ Aunt Tilly the charge is the charge. It makes no difference who charged you. The law code does not change based on what office made the charge. You also represented that you would know more than all above referenced offices. You will be badly out gamed. That process will start with the officer on scene and how he interprets the law and how it relates to your actions.

 

[dwa12479]

Do you need to be put to bed? You are misrepresenting and avoiding the point. The cop will arrest when they have probable cause. Their understanding of the law will determine if there is an initial arrest. That arrest will start the process. You somehow thought that is mattered who the charge came from. That is your point and that is incorrect. DA/ Grand Jury/ Aunt Tilly the charge is the charge. It makes no difference who charged you. The law code does not change based on what office made the charge. You also represented that you would know more than all above referenced offices. You will be badly out gamed. That process will start with the officer on scene and how he interprets the law and how it relates to your actions.

You weren't referencing arrests. You were referencing CHARGES. Cops CANNOT BRING CHARGES.

 

[Cooolone]

I think you're reading too much into the weapon. My point was more of the situation. If you can make a decision between running for your life or pulling a gun ... you better start running! At the end of the day it is not you who will determine reasonableness. That will be decided by others.

I'm reading too much? But you propose you know what will happen as a result of a person defending themselves. And you still go to the same place, that of predetermining the action to an event you don't even know what is, what may be... You predispose to a course of action, you think that running for your life provides "safety" from assault or death! That's a fucking joke! You think that there is time to make a decision, other than acting!

It's unfortunate, because you just don't get it, and as I said, and stand by my statements as they're represented by experience! You also ignored the testament I made as to being "IN" those exact situations you prescribe, did the exact opposite, and experienced the exact opposite you attest is most assured! Sorry, but reality dictates otherwise in my experience! But keep believing you'll have time to think defend or run! That if you run you'll be ok, physically or legally! Lmao! This is my last post in this regard as I'm tired of banging my head against the wall trying to make sense for someone who just doesn't get it.

 

[Chevusa]

I'm reading too much? But you propose you know what will happen as a result of a person defending themselves. And you still go to the same place, that of predetermining the action to an event you don't even know what is, what may be... You predispose to a course of action, you think that running for your life provides "safety" from assault or death! That's a fucking joke! You think that there is time to make a decision, other than acting!

It's unfortunate, because you just don't get it, and as I said, and stand by my statements as they're represented by experience! You also ignored the testament I made as to being "IN" those exact situations you prescribe, did the exact opposite, and experienced the exact opposite you attest is most assured! Sorry, but reality dictates otherwise in my experience! But keep believing you'll have time to think defend or run! That if you run you'll be ok, physically or legally! Lmao! This is my last post in this regard as I'm tired of banging my head against the wall trying to make sense for someone who just doesn't get it.

Oh I get it. Probably more than most other people. I'm not saying that you will always have time for this or that. Each case will be different. What I am saying is that IF there is ANY way for you to get out of there without using a weapon you better take it. If you don't and it doesn't seem reasonable to others looking at it afterwards you are done for. It needs to be the absolute last thing you try. It cannot be your first course of action. Again each situation is different and I can't imagine what situation you have dreamt up in your mind so I cannot give you an exact answer. Just know, it will not go as smoothly as you have dreamt up your version of it going. I would offer a different option in another state, but here, you just about better have evidence that you tried EVERYTHING before you pulled a gun. You WANT a security camera catching you running away like a bitch for your life. That will be your best friend if you have to use a weapon. It is what it is.

 

[dwa12479]

Oh I get it. Probably more than most other people. I'm not saying that you will always have time for this or that. Each case will be different. What I am saying is that IF there is ANY way for you to get out of there without using a weapon you better take it. If you don't and it doesn't seem reasonable to others looking at it afterwards you are done for. It needs to be the absolute last thing you try. It cannot be your first course of action. Again each situation is different and I can't imagine what situation you have dreamt up in your mind so I cannot give you an exact answer. Just know, it will not go as smoothly as you have dreamt up your version of it going. I would offer a different option in another state, but here, you just about better have evidence that you tried EVERYTHING before you pulled a gun. You WANT a security camera catching you running away like a bitch for your life. That will be your best friend if you have to use a weapon. It is what it is.

Agreed 100%. I will do the best I can to retreat from a situation in which I'm in fear for my life. Absent that opportunity, I'll defend myself and my loved ones with DPF as needed and deal with the consequences later. If we survive...

 

[Criticalt]

Once again, not reading carefully. In one situation I described a situation where it would be reasonable to run way. In the other I described a situation where you are trapped.

Nice to know that YOU will have control over the police/DA/Grand Jury in this situation.

Like I said earlier, lots of people have perfect scenarios in their heads. It's all daydreaming however. It's never going to happen like you think it is.

Well it sure could turn out the way I think it would. I was involved in a deadly situation in Pittsburgh PA years ago. It went exactly the way I thought and im still here, alive and not in prison.
Annnd nope....you say in one situation, with a small knife, you WILL be in trouble for not running away. But be fine if cornered with a machete.
Wrong, you say to read and understand article 35....well, use your own advice.
NOWHERE in the law does it differentiate what weapon must be used against you to use deadly force. In the eyes of the law, a tiny knife and a machete are IDENTICAL.
Also, you ONLY have the duty to retreat IF YOU CAN DO SO SAFELY.
You say that none of us understand article 35 well enough but in every single post you show you have no clue.
And yes, my lawyer and I will absolutely control a rouge DA trying to convolute the law. We are a very pro 2A county with great judges. Plus our current DA is a great and honest guy.

I really believe what you are trying to say is that many DAs will TRY anything to get you fucked. But, a good lawyer can beat this everytime.
Like the old "10mm is too powerful" thing some DAs will try to push. That never works.

 

[Criticalt]

A self defense kill is a homicide. An investigation will determine if it was a justifiable or unjustifiable homicide.

Holy crap man!!!!
NOPE again.
A self defense killing is NOT a homocide...ever.

A DA may TRY charging you with homicide but only a jury conviction can make it a homocide.
A homocide is an UNLAWFULL murder.
A justifiable self defense is NOT a homocide.
You seriously need to stop
This on the verge of trolling.
Youre gonna get someone killed with your "advice".

 

[Chevusa]

Holy crap man!!!!
NOPE again.
A self defense killing is NOT a homocide...ever.

A DA may TRY charging you with homicide but only a jury conviction can make it a homocide.
A homocide is an UNLAWFULL murder.
A justifiable self defense is NOT a homocide.
You seriously need to stop
This on the verge of trolling.
Youre gonna get someone killed with your "advice".

Under NYS law it is either a homicide or a justifiable homicide. Anytime a person kills another. I literally just went through the class and this was specifically in the curriculum from NYS directly.

 

[Chevusa]

Right from NYS Dept of Criminal Justice.

You should probably keep your thoughts to yourself unless you’ve received more than a google search education on the subject.
You seriously need to stop
This on the verge of trolling.
You‘re gonna get someone killed with your "advice".


JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE CIRCUMSTANCES

Data Element:	JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE CIRCUMSTANCES
Definition:	The situation that results in the justified killing of a criminal.
Standard of Verification:	Incident Report or Arrest Report.
Data Type:	AN
Field Size:	2
Field Format:	2AN
Originating Teams:	Law Enforcement
User Teams:	Law Enforcement
Tables / Codes:	JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE CIRCUMSTANCES Criminal Killed by Police Officer 01 - Criminal Attacked Police Officer and that Officer Killed Criminal 02 - Criminal Attacked Police Officer and Criminal Killed by Another Police Officer 03 - Criminal Attacked Civilian 04 - Criminal Attempted Flight from Crime 05 - Criminal Killed in Commission of Crime 06 - Criminal Resisted Arrest 09 - Unable to Determine/Not Enough Information Criminal Killed by Private Citizen 13 - Criminal Attacked Civilian 14 - Criminal Attempted Flight from Crime 15 - Criminal Killed in Commission of Crime 16 - Criminal Resisted Arrest 17 - Criminal Attacked Police Officer and Criminal Killed by Civilian Aiding Police Officer 19 - Unable to Determine/Not Enough Information 77 - Not Applicable
Comments:	None
Page Info:	DATE STANDARD ESTABLISHED: 2/91

Can’t wait to see how you try to twist and turn and spin your way out of “justifiable homicide doesn’t exist”. Or maybe you’ll surprise us and man up and say you were wrong. Time will tell.

 

[Doc8404]

Here’s the source in case anyone wants

JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE CIRCUMSTANCES - Data Element - NY DCJS

stage.criminaljustice.ny.gov

 

[Criticalt]

Justifiable

Right from NYS Dept of Criminal Justice.

You should probably keep your thoughts to yourself unless you’ve received more than a google search education on the subject.
You seriously need to stop
This on the verge of trolling.
You‘re gonna get someone killed with your "advice".


JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE CIRCUMSTANCES

Data Element:	JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE CIRCUMSTANCES
Definition:	The situation that results in the justified killing of a criminal.
Standard of Verification:	Incident Report or Arrest Report.
Data Type:	AN
Field Size:	2
Field Format:	2AN
Originating Teams:	Law Enforcement
User Teams:	Law Enforcement
Tables / Codes:	JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE CIRCUMSTANCES Criminal Killed by Police Officer 01 - Criminal Attacked Police Officer and that Officer Killed Criminal 02 - Criminal Attacked Police Officer and Criminal Killed by Another Police Officer 03 - Criminal Attacked Civilian 04 - Criminal Attempted Flight from Crime 05 - Criminal Killed in Commission of Crime 06 - Criminal Resisted Arrest 09 - Unable to Determine/Not Enough Information Criminal Killed by Private Citizen 13 - Criminal Attacked Civilian 14 - Criminal Attempted Flight from Crime 15 - Criminal Killed in Commission of Crime 16 - Criminal Resisted Arrest 17 - Criminal Attacked Police Officer and Criminal Killed by Civilian Aiding Police Officer 19 - Unable to Determine/Not Enough Information 77 - Not Applicable
Comments:	None
Page Info:	DATE STANDARD ESTABLISHED: 2/91

Can’t wait to see how you try to twist and turn and spin your way out of “justifiable homicide doesn’t exist”. Or maybe you’ll surprise us and man up and say you were wrong. Time will tell.

Justifiable homicide is not homicide.
Completely different things.
You clearly said Homicide.....not justifiable homicide.

 

[Chevusa]

Justifiable

Justifiable homicide is not homicide.
Completely different things.
You clearly said Homicide.....not justifiable homicide.

I said it was either homicide or justifiable homicide. Anytime someone is killed by another. Nice try. You clearly stated there was no such thing as justifiable homicide. That had been proven to not be true. Thanks for playing.

 

[BerettaGuy]

Unfortunately, the rule of law doesn't mean squat anymore. If you are threatened by this mob of gender-confused, skinny jeans wearing hipsters and you respond YOU ARE THE ONE THAT WILL BE ARRESTED.

 

[spat]

Holy crap man!!!!
NOPE again.
A self defense killing is NOT a homocide...ever.

A DA may TRY charging you with homicide but only a jury conviction can make it a homocide.
A homocide is an UNLAWFULL murder.
A justifiable self defense is NOT a homocide.
You seriously need to stop
This on the verge of trolling.
Youre gonna get someone killed with your "advice".

Homicide means the death was caused by another human, no matter the circumstances.

The determination whether a death is a homicide or not is made by a coroner.

Whether the homicide is justified is determined by the courts.

 

[Cooolone]

Lol... Is what it's like posting anymore!



Which leads to...

 

[Criticalt]

Homicide means the death was caused by another human, no matter the circumstances.

The determination whether a death is a homicide or not is made by a coroner.

Whether the homicide is justified is determined by the courts.

Homicide, according to every definition I can find is the "unlawful" andc"deliberate" killing of another person. So just causing a death is not homicide.
Justifiable homicide is the complete opposite.

hom·i·cide
/ˈhäməˌsīd/
Learn to pronounce
nounNORTH AMERICAN
the deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murder.

 

[Criticalt]

I said it was either homicide or justifiable homicide. Anytime someone is killed by another. Nice try. You clearly stated there was no such thing as justifiable homicide. That had been proven to not be true. Thanks for playing.

Nope
Homicide is the UNLAWFUL AND DELIBERATE killing by another person.
Justifiable homicide is literally the opposite of UNLAWFUL.
One is lawful, one is unlawful.
Left....right, up....down,....
..in.....out.......opposite things.

 

[Criticalt]

Lol... Is what it's like posting anymore!

View attachment 89304

Which leads to...


View attachment 89305

You can say that again.

 

[spat]

Homicide, according to every definition I can find is the "unlawful" andc"deliberate" killing of another person. So just causing a death is not homicide.
Justifiable homicide is the complete opposite.

hom·i·cide
/ˈhäməˌsīd/
Learn to pronounce
nounNORTH AMERICAN
the deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murder.

Homicide is a medical diagnosis, not a criminal charge. The coroner decides if a death is homicide or not, not the court. All killing is homicide, it is not all criminal.

That's why you'll read a news story and they say "the coroner ruled the death a homicide".

You will not read a story that says someone was charged with or convicted of homicide.

There is no law that says "homicide". The law says murder, manslaughter, or *criminally negligent* homicide.

It is quite possible to have homicide that is not criminal.

To understand the legal definition you need to use a specific legal dictionary, not something generic like dictionary.com.

Homicide Definition - FindLaw

To begin with, not all homicides are crimes. Homicides include all killings of humans, but there are instances where homicides are justified. Learn more about this and related topics by visiting FindLaw's Criminal Charges section.

criminal.findlaw.com

"Not all homicides are crimes. However, all killings of humans are included in the homicide definition. Many homicides, such as murder and manslaughter, violate criminal laws. Others, such as a killing committed in justified self-defense, are not criminal. Illegal killings range from manslaughter to murder, with multiple degrees of each representing the gravity of the crime."

 

[Jchrisls]

For self defense in general that's true. For most (maybe all) jurisdictions in the US.

It's an affirmative defense, which means you must admit to a crime to invoke it.

That means you have admitted that what you did would be a crime if it wasn’t done in self defense. It is then the defenses responsibility to prove self defense.

So, you *are* considered guilty until you can prove innocence.




The DA just needs to prove you shot the guy, if you don't offer any evidence of self defense then you go to prison. In order to offer evidence of self defense you have to admit that you shot the guy. At that point the DA doesn’t have to prove anything, he just needs to refute your self defense claim.

Well said