Good Brand For 5.56 Ammo
- Thread starter DrBleachCocktail
- Start date
Curmudgeon
.308 Win
Im not an expert and I'm speaking generally.
Generally the higher the twist rate (2nd number), the lower grain ammo will work better. I believe some of the old AR A1 types had a 1/12 rate which would suggest lighter grains.
1/8 should be stable with everything commercially available, 1/7 would be great for heavier projectiles.
Pay attention to the 62 grains. Look for "penetrator" or "steel core" designations. I wouldn't suggest a steel core round for precision at any real distance over a solid projectile plus they're no go at any indoor range I've ever been at.
Generally the higher the twist rate (2nd number), the lower grain ammo will work better. I believe some of the old AR A1 types had a 1/12 rate which would suggest lighter grains.
1/8 should be stable with everything commercially available, 1/7 would be great for heavier projectiles.
Pay attention to the 62 grains. Look for "penetrator" or "steel core" designations. I wouldn't suggest a steel core round for precision at any real distance over a solid projectile plus they're no go at any indoor range I've ever been at.
Curmudgeon
.308 Win
And yes, when I say "higher twist rate" it's actually lower. One twist in 12 is a lower rate than 1 in 8 is.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
Just swipe some from the armory.
repete
.338 Win Mag
Now's not the best time to be buying ammo especially in large quantities. Buy only what you need for now and wait till the panic buying is over and the shelves are full again and the price comes back down.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
1:11?
Not doubting you I just thought it was 1:12 but I may be thinking of something else. Its friday after all.
PS I run 1:8 .223 Wylde barrels for the most part.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
I agree with everything else you had there fwiw!
Curmudgeon
.308 Win
I'll take "when is a chart a shart?" For $200 Alex.
Curmudgeon
.308 Win
Off topic, but thinking of getting a 20" .223 Wylde rig with a nice barrel, trigger and glass.
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
Reload and make your own ..
PS .. does that site ship to NY ?? another FUBAR in NY ..
.. PS .. does that site ship to NY ?? another FUBAR in NY ..
My favorite brands are IMI, Fiocchi and the Hornady Frontier line. I also shoot good bit of Aguila which performs well for the price though it is pretty dirty.
Both my ARs have 1:7 barrels with a 5.56 NATO chamber and both love 55gr bullets and shoot .223 labled stuff just fine.
Both my ARs have 1:7 barrels with a 5.56 NATO chamber and both love 55gr bullets and shoot .223 labled stuff just fine.
Vapor
.308 Win
I've never had a single issue shooting 55 grain out of a 1:7. In fact, I have a 1:7 20" barrel that seems to love it.
62 grain has lack luster terminal performance. It's not that great at penetration, and it's terrible at fragmentation.
If you want your bullet to produce fragmentation, velocity is key. Go with 55. I usually go eith AE, Hornaday, or Winchester white box 5.56.
If you want to reach out and touch something, 75 grain hollow points is where it's at provided you have a 1:8 or 1:7. Hornaday frontier 75 grain hollowed points are a good budget option.
I personally have very little use for anything 62 grain.
If you want the best of all worlds and can afford it, go with soft points. Pulled a hornaday 55 grain soft point from just under the skin of the second shoulder of a doe. Turned her lungs and heart into soup and broke both shoulders.
62 grain has lack luster terminal performance. It's not that great at penetration, and it's terrible at fragmentation.
If you want your bullet to produce fragmentation, velocity is key. Go with 55. I usually go eith AE, Hornaday, or Winchester white box 5.56.
If you want to reach out and touch something, 75 grain hollow points is where it's at provided you have a 1:8 or 1:7. Hornaday frontier 75 grain hollowed points are a good budget option.
I personally have very little use for anything 62 grain.
If you want the best of all worlds and can afford it, go with soft points. Pulled a hornaday 55 grain soft point from just under the skin of the second shoulder of a doe. Turned her lungs and heart into soup and broke both shoulders.
One of the most accurate loads I put through my DD are the Hornady 55gr HP Match. Kinda pricey but they shoot to a little less than an inch @ 100 yds. That DD also really likes IMI's 77gr Mk 262 clone load too. Sonthe same 1:7 barrel shoots 55gr and 77gr equally well, go figure.
I would however add that for soft targets the 77gr Sierra Matchking OTM bullet, or faithful clones thereof, is brutally effective over a wide velocity range, tons of fragmentation with good penetration. It is a viable HD round if one accepts that it won't hold together through barriers. I myself run Gold Dot 64/62gr but one can do just fine on the cheap with good ol M193 which is still pretty effective, particularly at close range.
Finally I would advise @DrBleachCocktail to eschew the 62gr M855 loads in favor of the equally cheap 55gr M193 load. M855 has never shot especially well for me nor does it for most people. The mild steel core embedded within the tip can never be manufactured to be perfectly concentric within the jacket and this causes a fair bit of deviation shot to shot. M193 is a simple lead cored FMJ and doesn't have this problem. I do most of my plinking with M193, or the Hornady Frontier 55gr HP match stuff which is almost as cheap. Or was, who knows now what with the panic buyers once again wrecking their lead headed havoc.
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meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
What do you want the ammo for?
What gun and/or care about accuracy?
Do you reload and care about good brass for reloads?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
This chart is not accurate.
This is rather arbitrary since the ideal twist is not determined by weight but by:
A) bullet length
B) Speed
C) construction of the bullet & brand,
D) terminal design. (if desired effect at impact speed)
F) Grain is an indicator but it is secondary w/o considering all designs.
W/o talking about those variables discussions about twist can go all over the place.
I would say a good twist compromise is 1:8 because one can shoot 99% of the bullets that can work with a 223 casing.
1:9 will stabilize many 75-77gr match bullets and up to 65gr monolithic designs. National match barrels are popular in 8 twist.
No need for 1:7 twist. .. Only a hand full of bullets need and they are too long for the 223 unless it is a bolt action with a long
magazine (like AI) and for single feed... or one his shooting the longest tracers.
1:7 exists because that's what the military went with and therefore that twist rate is what you will find on most duty grade AR15s. Since 1:7 does fine with 55gr bullets there is no reason to avoid this very common twist either unless you are wanting a dedicated small varmiter AR since that's the only need for the lightweight 50 and 45gr bullets. Even then the Black Hills 50gr TSX load is supposed to be just fine from a 1:7 barrel as well, which would make sense since its billed as a barrier blind duty load for LE and HD/SD use, and again 1:7 is what you will typically find in carbines intended for such use.
Vapor
.308 Win
I think from previous conversations we are pretty much on the same page. I have maybe 3 or 4 boxes of 62 grain stored. The rest are 50 gr, 55, 69, and 75.
I've found the hornaday 75yr to shoot 1/2 moa 5 shot groups out of my zero taper 1/8 Wilson. I will have to try that 55 grain hp if I ever see it.
I've also found that a 50 grain hp will stabilize in a 1:7 just fine as well. The only 1:9 I own is a bolt gun.
I swear by 55gr HPs for range use, accurate and flat. Actually the 55gr loads are the flattest shooting 5.56 loads out to 300 yards and since my range only goes out to 300 yards at most I find it easier to use 55gr for target work. I have done numerous sessions where I have shot both 55gr and 75/77gr side by side and in my experience between 100 and 300 yards the POI of 55gr has very little shift elevation wise from TV he POA whereas with the heavy 5.56 loads the POI can vary by some inches. I still like to shoot 77gr though since my DD likes them so much.
Aside from my 1k round stash of the IMI Mk 262 clone I like to get the 240 round in a 30 cal can package SG ammo sometime offers. At $.77 a round I can't afford to blast through case after case of the stuff. That Hornady Frontier 55gr HP load however ran around $.37 which is very reasonable for the outstanding accuracy it has from my rifles. I highly recommend it.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Pod,
Those barrels exits because people keep on buying them but hardly the best choice.
IMO Fashions are not always the best choice. In this case, tacticool M4 style AR15 barrels are popular but one can do much better.
1:7 is not needed for the AR15 same as the M4 carbine style barrels and porting with 1/2"threads are a bad purchase. The 3 design mistakes can be easily avoided by choosing a mid or rifle ported barrel with lets say a medium (scout) profile and 3/4 threads. At the same time 1:8 twist that is more versatile and the typical twist in many national match AR15s.
Once again, the twist discussion is kind of arbitrary w/o taking about bullet length, speed, construction, etc...
Vapor
.308 Win
My friend and I always joke that my bull barrel guns and precision chassis rifles are over kill unless we plan on doing battle on an interstate. The longest range I have here in the mountains is 200 yards
How is the 1:7 a bad choice? There is no ideal barrel configuration, it's all dependent on the intended end use. The only thing the 1:8 can do that the 1:7 can't is stabilize some types of lightweight, high velocity varmint bullets. While on the other hand I have heard tale that some 1:8 barrels can have trouble adequately stabilizing certain types of 77gr ammunition, needless to say 77gr bullets seem to be at the edge of what the 1:8 twist can handle. Now I understand the concept of the true factors of what twist will stabilize what bullets has more to do with things like the length of the bearing surface and the ogive of the bullet but as those things are difficult to quantify in casual conversation we go by bullet weight as a quick reference and bullet weight does serve a decent general guideline. All that being said, the difference between what a 1:8 twist and a 1:7 is so minimal as to be of minor importance. More important are the other features that are typically found that come along with those particular twist rates and this goes back to what the intended use of the rifle/carbine is. I previously referenced a "duty" carbine, such a weapon is optimized for reliability, ruggedness, simplicity and lightweight above precision and stability. The ammunition used in such a carbine will be almost exclusively high pressure 5.56 spec and the round counts and volume of fire will accordingly be quite high so a durable barrel with a NATO chamber is well suited. Such barrels will usuall be cold hammer forged of carbon steel with a chrome lined bore to cope with the very high heat loads these barrels will need to endure. This kind of barrel is overwhelmingly offered in a 1:7 twist which will effectively stabilize all the types of ammunition a duty carbine will need to use, down from the specialized 50gr TSX to the training use M193 and M855 up to the specialized heavyweight in the 75/77gr range. Therefore for such use the 1:7 is quite well suited, desirable and versatile. My own experience has been that both my AR15s shoot 55gr FMJ and OTM ammunition very well. I have two AR15s, both with 1:7 twists and 5.56 NATO chambers out of 4150 steel and mid length gas systems. The DD has a 16" cold hammer forged construction with a chrome lined bore and a Gov't profile, while the NYGF build has a 14.5" pinned barrel that is button rifled with a Nitrided bore in a medium light taper profile (Ballistic Advantage's Hanson profile). Both will shoot to an inch at 100 yards with good ammunition, 55gr OTMs being a favorite of both, the DD has a strong fondness for 77gr OTMs as well.
I would someday like to put together a 20" target AR and for that rifle I would likely select a stainless steel 1:8 barrel with a Wylde chamber. Probably from JP Enterprises.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Pod,
I mean the M4 style "service" barrel as a whole is not the smartest choice.
I agree a AR is intended as a "duty" carbine and such a weapon is optimized for reliability, ruggedness and let me explain why the M4
is not the best choice for that type of platform and, IMHO, it should have never existed in the first place.
This is why...
- The AR was designed originally as a 20" carbine and with the M16A2 modifications it came too short to be the most efficient.
- They also created a slant cut on the barrel that leaves the minor diameter of the barrel too thin and forces the barrel to be that
way. The ONLY reason you have these weird cuts and position, it is because they needed the space to accommodate the M203
grenade launcher so they made that stupid decision instead of redesigning the entire launcher and or bracket that would benefit
the actual carbine. Civilians do not need this BS.
- Something also inherited from the original AR is the 1/2" threads that leaved a compromised minor diameter and prone to
premature crown swelling and therefore premature loss in accuracy.
- The twist rate of 7 will work but it is already too much and one could even argue if an 8 twist might be used by most shooters for
the ammunition people more likely shoot. The additional twist only compounds to the list of things that are hardly the wisest
choice. The only reason for a civilian AR15 shooter to have a 1:7 is if they intend to shoot tracer ammo or certain 90gr bullets
or solids that are too long for the 5.56 chamber, AR magazine and will need single feed in the first place anyway.
The typical sierra 75,77 and 80gr SMK, TMK, hornday, speer, etc ... work fine with 8 twist and are popular choices for national match
competitions. you mentioned some might not stabilize so please let us know what those are precisely because they are not the
popular bullet choices and people reading might get the wrong impression that they need a faster twist.
The discussion about length, construction, speed and terminal effect is very relevant as for example, up to 75gr many bullets will
stabilize great with a 9 twist but for example a 75gr VLD will not and a 70gr TTSX from barnes will also have problems.
Also bulk light varmint bullets at 7 twist sometimes come apart due tot he torque forces produced by the massive speeds
and excessive twist so jacket separation is a concern. It has happened to me. So lower the charge and you might be fine
but then, defeats the purpose of the original hypervelocity varmint round and the 223 is not too far behind the 22-250
for similar purposes.
So there is no one single good reason to choose "M4 style" barrels for AR15 civilian use. Aside of the 7 twist discussion there
are 16 and 18" barrels that are cut with mid weight "scout" profiles that address all those shortcomings of the M4 style barrels
and that are available at comparable cost or for a bit more but also come nitrocarburized that has proven to be a superior
standard vs. chrome in terms of durability and accuracy.
Again, I am not saying that a M4 tacticool style barrel would not work but what I am saying is that civicilian shooters are
blessed with superior options to the military "mil-spec" standard and not just for barrels but bolts, triggers and other equipment.
For example ARP has been making the 16, 18 and 20 barrels and also bolts with the heavy duty philosophy in mind but better
than the service ones.
5.56/223 Wylde barrels
5.56 and 223 Wylde barrels and high performance parts.
www.ar15performance.com
There are a few other good makers and then a lot el cheapo build kits junk too.
These features, accuracy and durability has been tested here and in previous NY and other forums through the years and there is
extensive info and feedback the problem is that the forum's search feaure is not that great at finding things.
Vapor
.308 Win
I know you mean well, but I think anybody who is really into ar15s already knows this stuff. I've only ever had one upper that has the m4gery profile. (Again, I'm not making a personal attack here.)
I think they all work. Anything from 1:9 to 1:7 I mean. Given you have some sense about your applications. I personally never shoot nor have the desire to shoot anything less than 50 grains. I would also surmise that Pod here has 5.56 rifles for defense/plinking, probably never caring anything about hunting varmits.
I think there is also a difference between ultimate/perfect and good enough. For most people, a 1 in 9 or a 1 in 7 is good enough. For their practical uses, they will never know the difference between anything in 1 in 9 to 1 in 7.
Anyway gents, carry on.
I think they all work. Anything from 1:9 to 1:7 I mean. Given you have some sense about your applications. I personally never shoot nor have the desire to shoot anything less than 50 grains. I would also surmise that Pod here has 5.56 rifles for defense/plinking, probably never caring anything about hunting varmits.
I think there is also a difference between ultimate/perfect and good enough. For most people, a 1 in 9 or a 1 in 7 is good enough. For their practical uses, they will never know the difference between anything in 1 in 9 to 1 in 7.
Anyway gents, carry on.
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
is it a myth that the M4 AR in combat the bullets tumbled or is it true ? in war who cares how it hits the bad guy as long as you hit them
Any bullet that has more mass in its ass than its nose will tumble when it rapidly decelerate upon striking a soft target. It is a myth that tumbling bullets dramatically increase the damage of a bullet, the extent of the effect is limited to whatever tiny amount of additional tissue the bullet displaces when it is travelling sideways. In the case of the Vietnam era M193 round, and most other high velocity, lightly constructed bullets with a cannelure is that the bullet fragments at the cannelure when it does yaw. Fragmentation is a major wound effect enhancement but is dependent on velocity so it can be somewhat chancy. If a 5.56 bullet fails to fragment then it simply makes a pair of .22 holes in the target which doesn't do much of anything to a person if none of the vitals are perforated. M855 is notorious for penciling straight through soft tissue, though it will fragment at high velocity doing severe damage as it does so. M855 has a high velocity threshold for this effect in comparison to M193 however. The Modern M855A1, the now defunct Mk318 SOST and the Mk262 mod 1 rounds all have relatively low fragmentation thresholds and remain highly effective from shorter barrels. The Mk 262 in particular remains effective even at extended range, in Afghanistan SOCOM guys reported 1 shot drops out to 600 meters with the 18' barreled Mk 12 SPR. Guys using M4s were known to pilfer this ammo intended for use by the sharpshooter guys even, in fact the availability and effectiveness of the Mk 262 round is what killed the 6.8 SPC procurement program.is it a myth that the M4 AR in combat the bullets tumbled or is it true ? in war who cares how it hits the bad guy as long as you hit them