Guy shot himself in the leg and posted it on the M14 forum

[96coal449]

Well I won't speak for you, but in my view: yes, castration is much worse than losing a leg. I do my best to keep a pistol oriented in a safe direction, but if I have to choose between flagging my junk and flagging the side of my leg during a reholster, the choice is a no-brainer for me.

Also, your femoral artery is in that same region. You get shot in the side of the leg, you still have a decent chance of survival, as this fellow proved. You get shot in your groin area, you risk a fairly quick death unless your or someone close to you can stymie the bleeding and get you to hospital very quickly.

I know of him and quite a bit of the event. He drew from a hip worn holster. My reply to you was more of a class clown sarcasm joke. Of course castration would be worse. What I meant more was that his leg injury was amputation. A leg injury doesn't get much worse than that.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I understand that the civilian enthusiasts, and LEO/Military to some degree, have started to trend towards affordable, reliable, striker-fired pistols (hence why Glocks are so popular). I just can't ever see myself carrying a hot one that lacks an external safety for this very reason. There is a whole lot of risk and very few ways to mitigate it, especially when holstering and unholstering. You can practice the safety fundamentals your entire life, but it just takes just one momentary lapse of awareness to have a life-altering event.

I'm not passing judgement on this particular fellow as I don't know him. And to be honest, it could have been much worse. With this new, and hopefully temporary, trend of IWB and appendix carry, I will not be surprised to see ND's that cause injuries which are far worse, perhaps even fatal.

For the foreseeable future, I'm sticking with DA/SA pistols with an external hammer that I can physically/visually check, especially during re-holster.

Wait are you trying to say glock doesn' have an external safety? Hahahhaa ok

 

[Marine Cpl]

Out of the millions of Citizens and thousands of Police Officers and Agents that holster and unholster a Glock or similar striker fired or revolver every single day, the amount of negligent discharges are so rare that they don't even register 1 percent.

What it all comes down to is minding the trigger at all times rather than some times.

There have been times when reholstering in the car in the dark when I felt I was having a hard time doing it with my coat or jacket in the way and I stopped. Better to stop than force it and take a chance.

These situations happen out of pure laziness. If you find yourself in the above situation, it's better to stand up and do it properly or turn on the light to see what you are doing than to force it while sitting.

 

[C3D]

I know of him and quite a bit of the event. He drew from a hip worn holster. My reply to you was more of a class clown sarcasm joke. Of course castration would be worse. What I meant more was that his leg injury was amputation. A leg injury doesn't get much worse than that.

Yes, it does get a lot worse than that. Hitting the femoral artery and bleeding out, or dying of sepsis, are two things that come to mind. And keeping the leg with chronic severe nerve pain is worse in my view, just give me a damned prosthetic at that point.

 

[Phazer]

Out of the millions of Citizens and thousands of Police Officers and Agents that holster and unholster a Glock or similar striker fired or revolver every single day, the amount of negligent discharges are so rare that they don't even register 1 percent.

What it all comes down to is minding the trigger at all times rather than some times.

There have been times when reholstering in the car in the dark when I felt I was having a hard time doing it with my coat or jacket in the way and I stopped. Better to stop than force it and take a chance.

These situations happen out of pure laziness. If you find yourself in the above situation, it's better to stand up and do it properly or turn on the light to see what you are doing than to force it while sitting.

Agreed. Every concealed carry instructor I've had has stressed that there is absolutely no reason to rush to reholster a pistol. It needs to be done with thought, carefully, and with direct visualization of the holster if you have any difficulties.

 

[freddy]

Out of the millions of Citizens and thousands of Police Officers and Agents that holster and unholster a Glock or similar striker fired or revolver every single day, the amount of negligent discharges are so rare that they don't even register 1 percent.

What it all comes down to is minding the trigger at all times rather than some times.

There have been times when reholstering in the car in the dark when I felt I was having a hard time doing it with my coat or jacket in the way and I stopped. Better to stop than force it and take a chance.

These situations happen out of pure laziness. If you find yourself in the above situation, it's better to stand up and do it properly or turn on the light to see what you are doing than to force it while sitting.

100%

 

[Upstate43]

Wait are you trying to say glock doesn' have an external safety? Hahahhaa ok

Well it does have an external trigger safety but it didn't really work too well in the incident referenced previously. I'm also just not a fan of a striker-fired pistol (w/o an additional safety lever) for re-holstering....you really have to be careful that the trigger doesn't get snagged on something.

Out of the millions of Citizens and thousands of Police Officers and Agents that holster and unholster a Glock or similar striker fired or revolver every single day, the amount of negligent discharges are so rare that they don't even register 1 percent.

I'm not sure what source you're using for those stats (both the # of striker-fired pistols and the # of ND's). I think there is evidence that ND's happen pretty regularly. One recent article discusses 300 ND's in a 24 month period: 300 Negligent Discharges: Comprehensive Data Science Reveals Gun Grabbers and Gun Owners are Both Wrong. That's over 1 ND every 3 days, and mind you that study was only counting ND's which resulted in injury or death. I'm very confident in making the assumption that far more ND's happen which aren't even recorded due to the operator being lucky and escaping injury.

That # might still be small compared to the total # of gun owners, but I think ND's happen far more regularly than people would like to believe.

What it all comes down to is minding the trigger at all times rather than some times.

There have been times when reholstering in the car in the dark when I felt I was having a hard time doing it with my coat or jacket in the way and I stopped. Better to stop than force it and take a chance.

That's the problem: you have to be every mindful of a striker-fired pistol's trigger, especially during unholstering and reholster. I believe in always practicing good weapons safety, but I'm also aware of the human condition and its tendency towards error and mistake, especially when tired and/or distracted. I'd rather have a weapon system that limits the opportunity for human operator error. If people want to carry a hot, striker-fired pistol lacking a traditional safety, fine have at it....I don't think all. or even most, of those people practice enough, especially in adverse conditions, to be truly experienced and safe.

 

[Marine Cpl]

300 ND's in a 24 month period wouldn't equal even half of a percent compared to the millions of times in the same period of successful reholstering. Do the math. At just one million it's .03 percent. Add many more millions to that.

And like I said before, if you follow the safety rules, and use your head, your chances are almost zero.

Let me ask you this. Since you are aware of the human condition to make mistakes. Do you trust yourself to release that safety if you ever have to pull the trigger to fire a shot? How about even engaging the safety to the on position before reholstering?

 

[Upstate43]

300 ND's in a 24 month period wouldn't equal even half of a percent compared to the millions of times in the same period of successful reholstering. Do the math. At just one million it's .03 percent. Add many more millions to that.

And like I said before, if you follow the safety rules, and use your head, your chances are almost zero.

Let me ask you this. Since you are aware of the human condition to make mistakes, do you trust yourself to release that safety if you ever have to pull the trigger to fire a shot? How about even engaging the safety to the on position before reholstering?

I will point out that is just one study and it only covered injury/fatality inducing events. I do truly believe the are far more ND's occurring which go unreported (the author of the article makes the same assumption). That said, I do acknowledge the rate of ND's is probably still low, but I think people fall into the trap of thinking that it is so low/rare that it will never happen to them...which is usually when complacency sets in and mistakes happen.

As for releasing and engaging the safety, if you practice enough with your weapon system, such actions should become muscle memory. My weapon (whether it be a bolt action rifle or a semi-auto pistol or a pump action shotgun) is always being kept with the safety engaged until I am ready to fire. I've seen too many ND's and heard too many stories (often about people who were considered "professionals") to handle my weapons any differently.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I will point out that is just one study and it only covered injury/fatality inducing events. I do truly believe the are far more ND's occurring which go unreported (the author of the article makes the same assumption). That said, I do acknowledge the rate of ND's is probably still low, but I think people fall into the trap of thinking that it is so low/rare that it will never happen to them...which is usually when complacency sets in and mistakes happen.

As for releasing and engaging the safety, if you practice enough with your weapon system, such actions should become muscle memory. My weapon (whether it be a bolt action rifle or a semi-auto pistol or a pump action shotgun) is always being kept with the safety engaged until I am ready to fire. I've seen too many ND's and heard too many stories (often about people who were considered "professionals") to handle my weapons any differently.

Ahh. Muscle memory. Practice. Who would have thought?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Even if you quadruple your numbers, it's still less than 1 percent.

 

[Upstate43]

Ahh. Muscle memory. Practice. Who would have thought?

I can put a thumb on a DA/SA pistol's hammer to physically confirm it is safe as I reholster. Some pistols also come with external manual safety levers which again I can visually and or physically check for safe reholster. I don't see the same safety redundancies with a striker-fired pistol lacking a safety lever. What is it that you should 'practice' with those weapons to ensure safe reholstering?

I also have also always asked the question: why is it universally considered logical and sound to have an external safety lever on a semi-auto or bolt action rifle or pump action shotgun and yet many people will forgo such a precaution when it comes to certain striker-fired pistols? Arguably, it is much easier to inadvertently flag and injure yourself or someone else with a pistol than it is with a rifle or shotgun.

 

[Upstate43]

Even if you quadruple your numbers, it's still less than 1 percent.

I think that's a very conservative estimate on your part for the # of unreported ND's, but even if we go with that # it certainly isn't nothing. In the military circles, I know that ND's happen enough that everyone has either heard of one happening or seen one first hand.

I'm not trying to hype up the 'dangers' of using a firearm, but I also think there are a lot of complacent firearm operators out there.

 

[Marine Cpl]

While you put a thumb on the hammer to reholster, why can't I put an eye on the trigger to reholster.

Long guns have safeties because they aren't carried in holsters that protect the trigger.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You gave me 300 in a 2 year period. I already quadrupled it. But okay. Even if you make it 1500 which is 5 times as much, it's only 1.5 percent out of 1 million reholsterings. And you know I'm being conservative with that number.

Strikers and revolvers are holstered way more than a million times in a 2 year period.

 

[Upstate43]

While you put a thumb on the hammer to reholster, why can't I put an eye on the trigger to reholster.

Because
1) I don't think 'eyeing' the trigger as the gun is fully holstered is always feasible with every type of carry setup
and
2) I don't think many, or even, most people will actually do adhere to that, especially during quick presentation drills or real life scenario's. People say they will do something, but then put them to the test or in a stressful situation and often they'll start to mess things up or get distracted.

Long guns have safeties because they aren't carried in holders that protect the trigger.

This is true, but I still contend that when they are unholstered and in hand, it is much easier to ND into yourself or someone else with a pistol versus a long gun. Moreover, the unholster and reholster actions present considerable risk for inadvertent trigger engagement, especially in stressful situations.

 

[Upstate43]

You gave me 300 in a 2 year period. I already quadrupled it. But okay. Even if you make it 1500 which is 5 times as much, it's only 1.5 percent out of 1 million reholsterings. And you know I'm being conservative with that number.

Strikers and revolvers are holstered way more than a million times in a 2 year period.

As I already said, I'm not trying to argue that ND's have a big statistical presence. I am saying that they happen far more often that many people would like to believe. I saw them happen more than a few times while in the military, and those were with a trained pool of professionals. I believe that they happen far more often with civilians who are generally not as well trained.

I think firearm operators, especially civilians, should train and behave with the assumption that they are proactively trying to avoid having a ND, instead of believing that ND's are statistically irrelevant to them. That's the real point behind my comments.

 

[ECU Pirates]

While you put a thumb on the hammer to reholster, why can't I put an eye on the trigger to reholster.

Long guns have safeties because they aren't carried in holsters that protect the trigger.

Put an eye on the trigger? You carry a mirror? Any gun can be safely holstered. Riding the hammer is just another level of safety. If one has the ability they might as well do it.

 

[ECU Pirates]

I also find it weird that someone afraid of glocks would carry one without a holster. Painful and permanent lesson.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Because
1) I don't 'eyeing' the trigger as the gun is fully holstered is always feasible with every type of carry setup
and
2) I don't think many, or even, most people will actually do adhere to that, especially during quick presentation drills or real life scenario's. People say they will do something, but then put them to the test or in a stressful situation and often they'll start to mess things up or get distracted.



This is true, but I still contend that when they are unholstered and in hand, it is much easier to ND into yourself or someone else with a pistol versus a long gun. Moreover, the unholster and reholster actions present considerable risk for inadvertent trigger engagement, especially in stressful situations.

You have your opinion no matter what the stats are. I can't help you with that.

I reholster at least 2 times a day. That's not counting and practice or training. I've been doing that for the last 8 years with a striker fired weapon. So that's about 3000 reholsterings at a minimum. According to your stats, how many times should I have had a negligent discharge?

I'm not trying to be a pain. I'm just being realistic.

 

[ECU Pirates]

I think some striker fired pistols can sort of ride the striker when holstering. Walther maybe?

 

[Upstate43]

You have your opinion no matter what the stats are. I can't help you with that.

I reholster at least 2 times a day. That's not counting and practice or training. I've been doing that for the last 8 years with a striker fired weapon. So that's about 3000 reholsterings at a minimum. According to your stats, how many times should I have had a negligent discharge?

I'm not trying to be a pain. I'm just being realistic.

Go read my earlier post (#107); it sums up what I'm getting at.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Go read my earlier post (#107); it sums up what I'm getting at.

I did and it's not computing mathematically. I also make sure it doesn't happen by keeping an eye on it.

 

[Upstate43]

I did and it's not computing mathematically. I also make sure it doesn't happen by keeping an eye on it.

That's because my point is more concerned with a mindset that it is with the hard math. Moreover there isn't a whole lot to "compute" as some of the assumptions you and I were making were theoretical.

The whole story which started this thread was about a 60 year old guy who had been shooting since he was a kid. A few people here who claim to know him say that he was a proficient and safe shooter, and yet he still had a ND which caused him serious harm. I think any shooter, but especially a civilian one, is foolish to think that ND's are not a real risk which require proactive mitigation on his/her part. This thread should be proof enough of that.

As statistically “irrelevant” as they might be, I personally believe it is a good idea to train to avoid ND’s and to use a weapon that limits the opportunity for such incidents. Simply “eyeing” the trigger is not sufficient in my view, nor is it really all that practical for many circumstances.

 

[Marine Cpl]

That's because my point is more concerned with a mindset that it is with the hard math. Moreover there isn't a whole lot to "compute" as some of the assumptions you and I were making were theoretical.

The whole story which started this thread was about a 60 year old guy who had been shooting since he was a kid. A few people here who claim to know him say that he was a proficient and safe shooter, and yet he still had a ND which caused him serious harm. I think any shooter, but especially a civilian one, is foolish to think that ND's are not a real risk which require proactive mitigation on his/her part. This thread should be proof enough of that.

As statistically “irrelevant” as they might be, I personally believe it is a good idea to train to avoid ND’s and to use a weapon that limits the opportunity for such incidents. Simply “eyeing” the trigger is not sufficient in my view, nor is it really all that practical for many circumstances.

A proficient shooter who carried a glock in his pocket without a holster. No offense to the guy but that's why it happened. It could have easily happened with a 1911 as well if carried without a holster. I've had the safety come off a few times in the past just by walking around while holstered.

 

[Upstate43]

A proficient shooter who carried a glock in his pocket without a holster. No offense to the guy but that's why it happened. It could have easily happened with a 1911 as well if carried without a holster. I've had the safety come off a few times in the past just by walking around while holstered.

I agree with you on the holster part, but according to the person's own account, the ND happened when the pistol fell out of his grip and back into his pocket. Such a ND can happen just as easily with a holster. Trigger awareness is an important thing for a pistol owner to have in mind; I'm not inclined rely on that awareness as my only safety precaution for the reasons stated previously.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I agree with you on the holster part, but according to the person's own account, the ND happened when the pistol fell out of his grip and back into his pocket. Such a ND can happen just as easily with a holster. Trigger awareness is an important thing for a pistol owner to have in mind; I'm not inclined rely on that awareness as my only safety precaution for the reasons stated previously.

How does a pistol fall out of your grip and land back in your pocket? I don't buy that. He reached in and digged around in his pocket with his finger on the trigger.

That doesn't happen in a proper holster. You can't get your finger in the trigger of a pistol in a proper holster. It's too small.

As far as what works for you and what you aren't inclined to do, that's you.

It's been engrained in me to always have trigger awareness.

 

[Uzi]

This is all fake. Someone told me that 45acp isn't sufficient and doesn't penetrate enough in the body on the internet. The bigger the bullet the slower it is, and I doubt it would even penetrate the first or second layer of skin. FAKE!

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

This is all fake. Someone told me that 45acp isn't sufficient and doesn't penetrate enough in the body on the internet. The bigger the bullet the slower it is, and I doubt it would even penetrate the first or second layer of skin. FAKE!

The 45 had pity on this poor fool and only took his leg and not his soul.

 

[Upstate43]

How does a pistol fall out of your grip and land back in your pocket? I don't buy that. He reached in and digged around in his pocket with his finger on the trigger.

I'm not going to even try to speculate on how much of his account is truthful versus fabricated. That's a futile endeavour.

That doesn't happen in a proper holster. You can't get your finger in the trigger of a pistol in a proper holster. It's too small.

As far as what works for you and what you aren't inclined to do, that's you.

It's been engrained in me to always have trigger awareness.

A good holster/carry setup is important, but it’s not foolproof (which you seem to acknowledge). Trigger awareness is important, but it takes just one momentary lapse for that ‘safety’ system to be bypassed. That’s why I think redundant safety features and a pro-active mindset to avoid ND’s are important.

If some people are able to convince themselves that they can safely and effectively operate and holster/unholster a non-safety striker-fired pistol because of their experiences in a range setting, that’s their call. For my purposes, that’s not a sufficient benchmark. If I’m not comfortable operating/carrying a pistol when I’m cold, hungry and tired in the middle of the wilderness, then I’m not carrying it period.