Help me decide which 5.56 for sd

[Jem45472]

So I have an 8.5" 300blk and am settled on the barns 110's. I'm working on my next ar pistol which is mainly for plinking, but which would you choose to keep loaded for home, or truck gun? This is a 10.5" barrel.

Black hills 50 grain tsx

Or the new Hornady black sbr 75 grain
Hornady SBR Ammo - RifleShooter


@Willjr75 I know how you like these comparisons.

 

[Marine Cpl]

So I have an 8.5" 300blk and am settled on the barns 110's. I'm working on my next ar pistol which is mainly for plinking, but which would you choose to keep loaded for home, or truck gun? This is a 10.5" barrel.

Black hills 50 grain tsx

Or the new Hornady black sbr 75 grain
Hornady SBR Ammo - RifleShooter


@Willjr75 I know how you like these comparisons.

I haven't really researched rifle bullets but based on that test, it only penetrates 14 inches in gel. 14 inches in gel isn't 14 inches in a body. Add barriers like leather and extra fat to slow it down and it'll penetrate even less. I'm all about penetration before expansion or fragmentation. If you shoot a big guy like Darth in the arm wearing a leather jacket, it may not reach his vitals.

I'd go with a 75 gr Gold dot that does about 20 inches from a short barrel.

 

[Jem45472]

I haven't really researched rifle bullets but based on that test, it only penetrates 14 inches in gel. 14 inches in gel isn't 14 inches in a body. Add barriers like leather and extra fat to slow it down and and penetrate even less. I'm all about penetration before expansion or fragmentation. If you shoot a big guy like Darth in the arm wearing a leather jacket, it may not reach his vitals.

I'd go with a 75 gr Gold dot that does about 20 inches from a short barrel.

You don't think 20" is a little much for in the home for over penetration? I was thinking that the 14 was looking pretty damn good.

 

[Podmonkey]

Soft points in general do better at lower velocities than fragmentation dependant bullets
And heavier bullets seem to do better out of short barrels compared to lighter ones. The 223 Gold Dot loads are very good and sell online for cheaper than any other "premium" round but I never see them on retail shelves, nor do I know what they go for at retail. The Federal Fusion MSR load offers nearly identical performance as the Gold Dots and I see them everywhere albeit at the outrageous price of $1 a round. The vaunted Trophy Bonded Bear Claw round is even more expensive and don't seem to do anything the former rounds don't.
The Mk318 Marine 5.56 load is said do do well out of SBRs but is likewise difficult to find and and expensive as well.
The M855A1 also does very well from SBRs and pretty much from anything for everything but is unobtainium.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You don't think 20" is a little much for in the home for over penetration? I was thinking that the 14 was looking pretty damn good.

I think 20 is good but prefer even more. What if i have to shoot through a couch?

 

[Podmonkey]

I think 20 is good but prefer even more. What if i have to shoot through a couch?

Should you shoot through a couch? In an environment where you are legally liable for every single shot should you shoot at a target you don't have direct line of sight to?
Just food for thought.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Should you shoot through a couch? In an environment where you are legally liable for every single shot should you shoot at a target you don't have direct line of sight to?
Just food for thought.

Yes. It's my house. I'm trying to shoot through the couch to get the guy taking cover behind it that's shooting back at me.

That's why I choose a 9mm Carbine at home. I want the bullet to go through drywall, couches, wall corners, ect. I don't want the limited penetration that fragments with FMJ's or the limited penetration that hollow points offers.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I really think bullets today are overly designed to make a buck. A bullet's primary design is to penetrate yet we are being told that it's a bad thing despite the thousands upon thousands of deaths at the hands of bullets that don't expand. Nowadays the thing seems to be expansion and fragmentation over penetration. We are going backwards and designing bullets that inhibit a bullet's primary purpose.

A 7.62x39 or 7.62x51 FMJ penetrates. It never had an issue killing humans in countless engagements in wars through cover or without cover. The same can be said of FMJ in .38 Special, .357 Magnum, 9mm, and .45 ACP in law enforcement. They penetrated way more than 18 inches and killed when vitals were struck.

Bullets today are doing the opposite. They favor everything else except penetration. The thing is, everything else doesn't immediately stop you. You can get shot in a non vital with a bullet that expanded or fragmented and you'll die later. That isn't what we are looking for. We are looking for stopping the threat and to do that, you need bullets that penetrate to vitals even after going through barriers.

 

[zzrguy]

What is the twist rate on that barrel.

 

[Jem45472]

What is the twist rate on that barrel.

1/7

 

[meketrefe]

The black-hills 77gr TMK leaves the blackout behind even from a 11" barrel.
Not only that but it is a long range round from a 14" and 16" barrel, obviously.
black-hills is a top choice among special ops, seals, SC, etc...

The thing with the 55gr and 62gr barnes is that they are amazing penetrators
and will defeat barriers, thick glass and armor where the 7.62x39 and obviously
the blackout will fail.

 

[zzrguy]

I'd start at 62gr and work my way up my 1-7 twist rifle love 62gr green tips. I have 77gr spbt and the group well at 100yd.

 

[Jem45472]

Hmm, surprised no comments on the video with Black hills 50gr. 2900 fps from a short barrel is pretty impressive I thought, with the massive wound channel, and 18 inches penetration to go along with it. Remember, this is for an AR pistol with a 10.5" barrel I was asking about

 

[Podmonkey]

Regarding the Black Hills and Barnes stuff, where is the OP going to get them? I see these manufacturers only infrequently available in stores in the 5.56/223 caliber and when I do see them its typically in Cabelas with their monstrous retail markups. In fact I do recall seeing some Barnes 223 ammo in a Cabelas at nearly $2.00 a round, which is clearly ludicrous.
I am not a proponent of buying only a magazine's worth of defense ammunition, one must buy enough to periodically practice with and stocks should be rotated besides. This is why NYS sucks as the the Gold Dot 223s I recommend are available at reasonable cost online, but not from all sellers. The one particular vendor NYers use has erratic and frequently high prices on this ammo. But again if able to spend around $1.00
a round while maintaining a reasonable stock the Federal Fusion 5.56 is identical in performance. Either of these soft point rounds exhibit good penetration and tissue disruption and both are known to have good barrier penetration. I have more experience shooting the Gold Dots, I know this ammo to be quite accurate and clean in my ARs.
In the end I would keep in mind cost and availability when considering the high end stuff as I don't think they offer much improvement over more modestly priced ammo.
Also, frankly, the humble M193 55gr, while not known for its barrier penetration, is nonetheless quite effective in soft tissue. I almost exclusively stock quality M193 types for training and plinking.
There are a few 77gr mk262 clones out there at vaguely reasonable prices, most notably from my favorite ammo manufacturer IMI. Online these can run from $.60 to $.75 a round.
This type of ammo is well known for its terminal effect, accuracy and retention of energy at relatively long range (for 5.56). But I rarely if ever see it in stores.
Being limited to retail just really sucks! All I ever see in the brick and mortar stores is overpriced fudd ammo and overpriced Lake City "surplus". I dunno, maybe research what Aguila has on offer for 5.56/223 and if any of it is good for SD use. Gander Mountain is still offering great deals on Agulia ammunition and in 9mm and 7.62x51 have had great results. I assume their 5.56/223 is equally good. My Galil Ace shoots very good groups with their 150gr 7.62x51 stuff.

 

[zzrguy]

I'll stick to my Grendel. I may build a Valkyrie ammo seems to be getting more available

 

[meketrefe]

For SD and other specialty use it doesn't matter if you pay a bit more because you are going to buy the best ammo
you can find for that role and test it. Then for training you are going to reload or find better priced ammo that
reproduces the special purpose ammo but on a budget. Many people reload others wait for the deals.

There are two great ways of getting decent ammo and/or components and save big time...

A) Buy Bulk
B) Buy Bulk

Join forces. Travel if you have to and consider it an investment.
Ideally a distribution dealer can offer additional discounts to what is advertised.

Almost everyone who shoots a lot (that is the only way to get better at it) do the above.

Even if you don't compete, invest on ammo and do it wisely. Less guns and more ammo is better than more guns and less ammo.

What good is a ferrari or a nice car collection if one doesn't have gasoline?

...well, I guess a museum.

 

[Podmonkey]

For SD and other specialty use it doesn't matter if you pay a bit more because you are going to buy the best ammo
you can find for that role and test it. Then for training you are going to reload or find better priced ammo that
reproduces the special purpose ammo but on a budget. Many people reload others wait for the deals.

There are two great ways of getting decent ammo and/or components and save big time...

A) Buy Bulk
B) Buy Bulk

Join forces. Travel if you have to and consider it an investment.
Ideally a distribution dealer can offer additional discounts to what is advertised.

Almost everyone who shoot a lot (that is the only way to get better at it) do the above.

If I can get the proven Gold Dot .223s for about $.50 a round why would I bother with more expensive "hyper" ammos? The Gold Dot, and soft points in general, are known to be highly effective for SD/HD in the caliber. The Gold Dots are also plenty accurate. I might even shoot one of our matches with some.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If I can get the proven Gold Dot .223s for about $.50 a round why would I bother with more expensive "hyper" ammos? The Gold Dot, and soft points in general, are known to be highly effective for SD/HD in the caliber. The Gold Dots are also plenty accurate. I might even shoot one of our matches with some.

I agree. Those 64 and 75 grainers do extremely well through auto glass. And they are cheap too for defensive ammo.

 

[meketrefe]

If I can get the proven Gold Dot .223s for about $.50 a round why would I bother with more expensive "hyper" ammos? The Gold Dot, and soft points in general, are known to be highly effective for SD/HD in the caliber. The Gold Dots are also plenty accurate. I might even shoot one of our matches with some.

Yes they are pretty good. They also make a great patrol round as many law enforcement report. Not the top perpetrator of the caliber but
it does pretty well in all departments. The gold dot for pistol is also a top pic for many calibers. Underwood uses pistol Gold Dot and they
pump the 124gr gold dot to 1300fps in 9mm and 1500fps in the SIG version from semi compact pistols like the G19.

So whether they are 223 or pistol they are tested in the streets and they are a top pic for law enforcement, swat and other folks.

 

[Podmonkey]

I agree. Those 64 and 75 grainers do extremely well through auto glass. And they are cheap too for defensive ammo.

I think that for soft points the midweights are the most versatile, the 75gr Gold Dots are fairly pokey and will have a more pronounced trajectory until extended ranges, whereas the 55gr while effective don't have quite as much penetration post barrier as the 62/64gr.
But since the OP specified a 10.5" barrel the 75gr is probably optimal. I do belive the Federal Fusion MSR loads are 5.56 spec'd as opposed to the .223 spec'd Gold Dots, they run a little faster I belive, with the MSR stuff being tuned for carbine length barrels.

 

[meketrefe]

I agree. Those 64 and 75 grainers do extremely well through auto glass. And they are cheap too for defensive ammo.

yes they are because they are very well bonded so although the solids are the top pic the bonded seem to be pretty versatile on the streets.
Personally I stick to either 62gr barnes or one of these. The 77gr black hills (or similar) would make more sense in a more specialized kind of role
where the extra reach and more momentum are more critical. with all that said the black hills does exceptional well in SBR and CQB that break around
2600fps from a 11"-1ft barrel. can you believe this shit? ..with nasty broad wounding considering a match bullet. ideal for soft targets from 1-ft to very long distances.
These beat other choices people consider more popular based on interwebz bs.

I would rank them like this:
A) 6.8 (Spec 2, both chamber and ammo)
B) 223 (5.56 spec)
C) 7.62x39 (modern)
D) Whisper/Blackout

The Grendel could be up there too but with the aggressive case shoulder is not the ideal for SD in terms of reliability, otherwise it is a great round.

 

[Podmonkey]

yes they are because they are very well bonded so although the solids are the top pic the bonded seem to be pretty versatile on the streets.
Personally I stick to either 62gr barnes or one of these. The 77gr black hills (or similar) would make more sense in a more specialized kind of role
where the extra reach and more momentum are more critical. with all that said the black hills does exceptional well in SBR and CQB that break around
2600fps from a 11"-1ft barrel. can you believe this shit? ..with nasty broad wounding considering a match bullet. ideal for soft targets from 1-ft to very long distances.
These beat other choices people consider more popular based on interwebz bs.

I would rank them like this:
A) 6.8 (Spec 2, both chamber and ammo)
B) 223 (5.56 spec)
C) 7.62x39 (modern)
D) Whisper/Blackout

The Grendel could be up there too but with the aggressive case shoulder is not the ideal for SD in terms of reliability, otherwise it is a great round.

I have 1k of the IMI 77gr mk262 clone stocked.
I intend them for the DD once I finally get it scoped. The IMI version compares very well to the authentic Black Hills load but is a fair bit cheaper, typically around $.70 a round. Out of my older Daniel Defense I could get around 1 MOA groups. I am going to save up and splurge for some top notch glass and a nice Hiperfire 24g trigger, see what I can get then. I think that rifle with that ammo with really, really good glass will be able to do 1 MOA routinely. The concept of the rifle is an all rounder equally good up close and at range, capable of "hostage" shot precision at close range and minute of man precision out to ranges beyond my capabilities.
Currently fantasizing about a Kahles K16i
1-6.
I don't have kids with college funds to worry about so fuck it I figure.

 

[meketrefe]

Another good substitute is the 80gr and 75gr amax now called ELD w/o melting tips. They are pretty similar with even a tad
better trajectory but the consistency of the black hills TMK is something amazing.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Speer 64 gr Gold Dot. Over 16 inches. Probably 18. When through a 16 inch block.

Again. 64 gr Gold Dot. 18 inches.

75 gr Gold Dot. 19.5 inches from an 11.5 inch barrel. 22 inches through a windshield from an 11.5 inch barrel.

 

[Podmonkey]

Well keep in mind that all the above were different testers using different guns on different days in different areas under different conditions. That in mind, and given some off the other tests I've seen with the 55gr the 223 Gold Dots are remarkably consistent across loadings.
Really comes down to twist rate I suppose. The lighter bullets will be flatter within 300 yards.
Again due to the OP's stated platform being a 10.5" I think the 75gr are best suited but the others would be fine too.

 

[Podmonkey]

Speer Gold Dot LE Duty 223 Remington 75 Grain SP
That is a very good price, especially considering the shipping is free. The 55gr is $1 a box cheaper but they want a $4 premium for the 62gr stuff, probably because it is the most popular.
@Jem45472 I'd get on this pretty quick since this vendor has dramatically fluctuating prices for this ammo. I've seen them charge $22 a box for these at times. The cheapest I have ever seen 223 Gold Dots go for is $9.50 a box from SG Ammo, and that is not including shipping.
@meketrefe, do you see now why I favor the Gold Dots so heavily now? In 223 that is, I prefer Federal HST for pistol ammunition

 

[Marine Cpl]

Well keep in mind that all the above were different testers using different guns on different days in different areas under different conditions. That in mind, and given some off the other tests I've seen with the 55gr the 223 Gold Dots are remarkably consistent across loadings.
Really comes down to twist rate I suppose. The lighter bullets will be flatter within 300 yards.
Again due to the OP's stated platform being a 10.5" I think the 75gr are best suited but the others would be fine too.

I don't think anyone here is going to be taking 300 yard shots for home defense. For hunting, it's doable within those ranges but you are talking about inches within 300 yards between the 55 gr and the 75 gr.

I just ran the numbers on a ballistic calculator at Federal's website.

A 75 gr going at 2350 fps from an 11.5 inch barrel zeroed at 50 yards is 3.2 inches low with a 2.6 inch bore height at 200 yards and 16.4 inches low at 300 yards.

A 55 gr going at 2700 fps from an 11.5 inch barrel zeroed at 50 yards with a 2.6 inch bore height is 1.6 inches low at 200 yards and 13.7 inches low at 300 yards.

Not much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. The lighter 55 gr sheds it's weight faster though. At 300 yards it's going 1632 fps while the 75 gr is going 1768 fps at 300 yards.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Here's the website where I found that information.

Federal Ammunition - Ballistics Calculator

 

[Podmonkey]

I don't think anyone here is going to be taking 300 yard shots for home defense. For hunting, it's doable within those ranges but you are talking about inches within 300 yards between the 55 gr and the 75 gr.

I just ran the numbers on a ballistic calculator at Federal's website.

A 75 gr going at 2350 fps from an 11.5 inch barrel zeroed at 50 yards is 3.2 inches low with a 2.6 inch bore height at 200 yards and 16.4 inches low at 300 yards.

A 55 gr going at 2700 fps from an 11.5 inch barrel zeroed at 50 yards with a 2.6 inch bore height is 1.6 inches low at 200 yards and 13.7 inches low at 300 yards.

Not much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. The lighter 55 gr sheds it's weight faster though. At 300 yards it's going 1632 fps while the 75 gr is going 1768 fps at 300 yards.

I thought ballistics charts were beyond you?
Fine then, looks like the 75gr is probably the best of the three overall. But not to any large degree, cost remains the determining factor. Either the 75gr or 55gr are available now at a very good price so Jem45472 could pick either of those two.
I already have a large stock of the 64gr so I would continue to stick with it since that is what my NYGF rifle is zeroed for currently. In fact if the weather is nice I may verify my zero over the weekend. Maybe see if I can get some groups worth posting. Probably not, with a 2 MOA red dot.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I look at them from time to time. This particular one even gives you moa drop. I like to look at them to see how many 2 moa red dots I would have to put over someone's head to score a chest hit at 150 yards with a PCC.