Hypocrisy of Accuracy Expectations

[Vapor]

I often here these rehashed over and over again in the gun world...

"1.5-3 moa is great for a non-free float chrome lined m4gery!"

"2.5-4 moa out of an ak is doing great, 2.5 edging toward the better ak rifles out there!"

"The 580 series mini-14 is ONLY capable of 1.5-2.5 moa with wal mart special ammo. What a steaming pile of shit! My specialized spr ar with $300 Giselle trigger, 6-25x scope, 77 grain match hollow points and 416r bull barrel shoots 1/2" or better!"


Having owned all the above...and getting the approximate results...(my vepr was more like 1.5-2moa side, my saigas 1.5-2.5)...I wonder how this nonsense just gets replayed forever. My 580 series mini is every bit as accurate, even with sustained fire, as my m4 profiled upper...and with all the crap I added to the build...the mini cost me less.

Will it touch my bull barrel upper? Nope, but I don't run match ammo through the mini either and its not designed for the same purpose....

 

[seezur]

Honestly, I think it's like any hobby. People like to make it out as if they are better than they are or need the "best" tool.

I can think of hundreds of non gun examples. "That laptop processor isn't fast enough for graphic designing (aka watching Netflix)" "That car 0-60 is only 4 seconds and the struts aren't rigid enough to beat car x (but the person has never tracked a car and can't hold a line)".

You gotta take into account a lot of people who are talking about this spec and that value don't actually own anything and have little experience or are repeating tired lore. I've tuned out people who talk about how, for example, one sports car is better than another based on their experience of driving 10 year old Kia Rios their entire lives.

Also, I think if you're pragmatic, you probably don't give a shit about the MOA values. I mean, is 1 MOA going to drastically change what you use the gun for? Can you hit the deer you're aiming at? Can you hit a man sized target at legal distances? If so, what does it matter if it's a RCH closer to your POA.

It's just bullshitting.

 

[Podmonkey]

I agree that accuracy claims and expectations are often unrealistic and inconsistent.
There are also a variety of false notions that things like free float handguards and improved triggers increase accuracy. They do not, mechanical accuracy is not affected by these things though they help the shooter to actually access the mechanical accuracy that is already there. Ultimately I think consistency is more important than ultimate accuracy. A rifle that can consistently deliver a given level of precison over a wide variety of conditions and circumstances is going to be more useful than a rifle that can produce tiny groups in only the most controlled conditions.

There is also the issue of how accuracy is measured, many like to cherry pick from the best 3 shot groups they can manage and post them for bragging rights. 3 shot groups don't show the true capabilities of a rifle/ammo combination. It is better to shoot say muktiple 9 shot groups and average average the group size within each group and then you can even average all the groups together yet for a better idea of what an rifle can do. Back in the day accuracy levels of rifles were determined via "figure of merit" which back then was the average distance from the center of a shot grouping from the center of each hole. The British used 20 shot groups. This takes more effort to determine but will give you a more reliable idea of what to expect from a rifle from shot to shot. In fact I think I will do some of these figure of merit groups my next range session.

 

[oc shooter]

ya but part of the fun is trying to make the gun shoot better and to improve ur own skills hell most people can't hold well enough to shoot 2" groups let alone sub 1"

 

[@thewheels]

There's a hell of a lot of people that aren't capable of interpreting data and the shooting world is no different.

It's exactly the reason you hear dumbass statements comparing apples and oranges like an ak with iron sights and cheap surplus ammo vs a Winchester pre 64 model 70 with a $800 scope and handloads.

What is the purpose? Use the appropriate tool for the purpose.
It's why nobody has a toolbox with just a wrench in it.

 

[Defilade]

I often here these rehashed over and over again in the gun world...

"1.5-3 moa is great for a non-free float chrome lined m4gery!"

"2.5-4 moa out of an ak is doing great, 2.5 edging toward the better ak rifles out there!"

"The 580 series mini-14 is ONLY capable of 1.5-2.5 moa with wal mart special ammo. What a steaming pile of shit! My specialized spr ar with $300 Giselle trigger, 6-25x scope, 77 grain match hollow points and 416r bull barrel shoots 1/2" or better!"


Having owned all the above...and getting the approximate results...(my vepr was more like 1.5-2moa side, my saigas 1.5-2.5)...I wonder how this nonsense just gets replayed forever. My 580 series mini is every bit as accurate, even with sustained fire, as my m4 profiled upper...and with all the crap I added to the build...the mini cost me less.

Will it touch my bull barrel upper? Nope, but I don't run match ammo through the mini either and its not designed for the same purpose....

Kinda like the "Red Dot" craze on CCW pistols. While I have no experience with them on a handgun and I will try it out, I find no real value for CCW distances in real situations.

 

[Podmonkey]

Kinda like the "Red Dot" craze on CCW pistols. While I have no experience with them on a handgun and I will try it out, I find no real value for CCW distances in real situations.

I think it's more of a competition thing.

 

[Marine Cpl]

4 MOA rifles have killed thousands upon thousands of people throughout the years. MOA is for paper shooters. People that like to shoot from a bench with a foot long scope at 50 to 100 yards to say, “Hey! Looky! They are touching!”

In real life situations when you are shooting standing or from a knee, you cannot shoot MOA. A 1 MOA or a 4 MOA would yield the same result at combat distances.

MOA only matters for serious long range shooters.

It’s all about money. There isn’t much you can do with these rifle platforms anymore that hasn’t already been done so to make money, you paint them different colors and change a meaningless number here or there and the sheep will give you their money.

 

[Podmonkey]

4 MOA rifles have killed thousands upon thousands of people throughout the years. MOA is for paper shooters. People that like to shoot from a bench with a foot long scope at 50 to 100 yards to say, “Hey! Looky! They are touching!”

In real life situations when you are shooting standing or from a knee, you cannot shoot MOA. A 1 MOA or a 4 MOA would yield the same result at combat distances.

MOA only matters for serious long range shooters.

It’s all about money. There isn’t much you can do with these rifle platforms anymore that hasn’t already been done so to make money, you paint them different colors and change a meaningless number here or there and the sheep will give you their money.

Well to be fair if you have two different rifles, both doing everything you need it to other than one being more precise than the other why wouldn't you want the more accurate one?

 

[Edwardteach72]

Kinda like the "Red Dot" craze on CCW pistols. While I have no experience with them on a handgun and I will try it out, I find no real value for CCW distances in real situations.

Like actually try it and put in the time and training. Or "give it a shot with a predetermined outcome and think well this thing I'm trying for the first time isnt magically better than something I've been doing for years so it doesnt offer any advantages"" type try?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Well to be fair if you have two different rifles, both doing everything you need it to other than one being more precise than the other why wouldn't you want the more accurate one?

It would depend on what the rifle was for and the price for the upgrade.

 

[Podmonkey]

It would depend on what the rifle was for and the price for the upgrade.

Its always a question of how much you were willing to pay. You know what I have. I am content with my stuff.

 

[Vapor]

Good points made so far. I like where we are headed.


I certainly do have some rifles i expect a certain level of performance from. for instance, I would not be happy with anything but sub moa out of my chassis bolt action.


My m4 style rifles or minis with irons, I'm happy with with first sized groups off hand at 50 yards.


My pcc stuff, kinda similar. Even pie plate very rapid very at closer distances is ok with me.


My oldest brother always says if a rifle or shotgun can hold minute of paper plate at 100 yards, its adequate for deer in New York. I guess he would know since he's into the triple digits on kills having used everything from single shot smooth bore shotguns to custom rifles. Dead is dead. The deer doesn't know if it was a $75 pawn shop special or a $1,500 Kimber.

 

[Darth]

Most guns can outshoot the shooter.

 

[Podmonkey]

Good points made so far. I like where we are headed.


I certainly do have some rifles i expect a certain level of performance from. for instance, I would not be happy with anything but sub moa out of my chassis bolt action.


My m4 style rifles or minis with irons, I'm happy with with first sized groups off hand at 50 yards.


My pcc stuff, kinda similar. Even pie plate very rapid very at closer distances is ok with me.


My oldest brother always says if a rifle or shotgun can hold minute of paper plate at 100 yards, its adequate for deer in New York. I guess he would know since he's into the triple digits on kills having used everything from single shot smooth bore shotguns to custom rifles. Dead is dead. The deer doesn't know if it was a $75 pawn shop special or a $1,500 Kimber.

They only thing I would say to that is that a good AR is actually perfectly capable of better than average accuracy and that's without spending an inordinate amount of money. Meaning that if an AR can't hold a decent group there is probably something wrong with it.
Offhand though, mechanical accuracy goes right out the window, that's all shooter. The light and handy Mini really shines for that kind of work.

 

[Marine Cpl]

And here’s another thing about MOA. So you buy parts that’ll make your AR a half of a MOA. Then you add a 4MOA or 2MOA red dot. There goes your half MOA.

 

[Podmonkey]

And here’s another thing about MOA. So you buy parts that’ll make your AR a half of a MOA. Then you add a 4MOA or 2MOA red dot. There goes your half MOA.

That's why I am thinking of an Eotech or Vortex UH1 for the Galil. Nice small 1MOA dot.
The scope I have on MY DD has a 1MOA center dot. The rifle shoots to about 1 MOA so all good there.

 

[Marine Cpl]

That's why I am thinking of an Eotech or Vortex UH1 for the Galil. Nice small 1MOA dot.
The scope I have on MY DD has a 1MOA center dot. The rifle shoots to about 1 MOA so all good there.

When I bullpupped my SKS, I had an Israeli optic (Can’t remember the name now) that used a triangle as a reticle . It was great because the tip of the triangle was probably less than 1 MOA. It didn’t obscure the target at all and you can get pretty precise with it and still use the whole triangle for CQB without additional clutter like the Eotech has.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I believe the Trijicon accupoint has such a reticle and is 0 to 4 or 6 I believe.

 

[Upstate43]

I agree that accuracy claims and expectations are often unrealistic and inconsistent.
There are also a variety of false notions that things like free float handguards and improved triggers increase accuracy. They do not, mechanical accuracy is not affected by these things though they help the shooter to actually access the mechanical accuracy that is already there. Ultimately I think consistency is more important than ultimate accuracy. A rifle that can consistently deliver a given level of precison over a wide variety of conditions and circumstances is going to be more useful than a rifle that can produce tiny groups in only the most controlled conditions.

There is also the issue of how accuracy is measured, many like to cherry pick from the best 3 shot groups they can manage and post them for bragging rights. 3 shot groups don't show the true capabilities of a rifle/ammo combination. It is better to shoot say muktiple 9 shot groups and average average the group size within each group and then you can even average all the groups together yet for a better idea of what an rifle can do. Back in the day accuracy levels of rifles were determined via "figure of merit" which back then was the average distance from the center of a shot grouping from the center of each hole. The British used 20 shot groups. This takes more effort to determine but will give you a more reliable idea of what to expect from a rifle from shot to shot. In fact I think I will do some of these figure of merit groups my next range session.

While I agree with most of this, I do disagree about the free-float issue.

A properly bedded action and free-floated barrel will in fact aid in accuracy, or at least consistency of accuracy. The free-float ensures the barrel is not being getting any pressure or force from the stock which would otherwise interfere with the barrel harmonics. I'm not the PHD who can explain all that in a lecture, but that's the general consensus I've heard from ballisticians and long range instructors.