Legal non-NFA short barrel "other" or "firearm"

[freddy]

There are quite a few legal loopholes being exploited by clever manufacturers (thankfully). For example: the Mossberg Shockwave. It appears that it is NY legal despite looking like a 14" barrel shotgun.

How about Franklin Armory's XO 26 R2 (shown below)? It is semiauto, uses a pistol brace, is over 26 inches, is made for two handed firing with vertical fore grip, and has a 11.5 inch barrel.

A. Is it NY legal as shown (assuming 10 round mags)?
B. Does it need a fixed mag to be compliant?
C. Does it go on a pistol permit, or is it an "other" or "firearm"?

What do you think @Bullet Guy, @Willjr75, @pmcjuryny, @hoodfu?

FRANKLIN ARMORY™ XO-26™ R2

 

[Marine Cpl]

There are quite a few legal loopholes being exploited by clever manufacturers (thankfully). For example: the Mossberg Shockwave. It appears that it is NY legal despite looking like a 14" barrel shotgun.

How about Franklin Armory's XO 26 R2 (shown below)? It is semiauto, uses a pistol brace, is over 26 inches, is made for two handed firing with vertical fore grip, and has a 11.5 inch barrel.

A. Is it NY legal as shown (assuming 10 round mags)?
B. Does it need a fixed mag to be compliant?
C. Does it go on a pistol permit, or is it an "other" or "firearm"?

What do you think @Bullet Guy, @Willjr75, @pmcjuryny, @hoodfu?

FRANKLIN ARMORY™ XO-26™ R2

Being that it has a pistol brace, NY will call it an assault pistol. However, if you build one and just put a cover on the buffer tube....



It won't be a pistol or a rifle or an AOW. It'll just be a generic firearm by ATF standards and it won't fall into any NY definition. So what could they convict you with as per NY law?

Edit. They'll charge you as having an Assault Weapon. (Pistol with features) You'd have to prove it's not.

 

[Uzi]

Being that it has a pistol brace, NY will call it an assault pistol. However, if you build one and just put a cover on the buffer tube....

How do you know this? Is there any documentation to back it?

 

[Marine Cpl]

How do you know this? Is there any documentation to back it?

What's the difference between this...

And this?

The forward grip?

 

[Uzi]

What's the difference between this...

And this?

The forward grip?

I'm tired and ready to go to bed, but it looks like the bottom one with the longer barrel and pistol grip would be a firearm? I just was wondering what NYS designates as an assault pistol with a pistol brace.

 

[DoD1776]

I'm tired and ready to go to bed, but it looks like the bottom one with the longer barrel and pistol grip would be a firearm? I just was wondering what NYS designates as an assault pistol with a pistol brace.

Staying up this late is gonna screw me over at school today

 

[Marine Cpl]

Taken from Penal Law 265.

22. "Assault weapon" means

(c) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable
magazine and has at least one of the following characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a thumbhole stock;
(iii) a second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be held by the
non-trigger hand;
(iv) capacity to accept an ammunition magazine that attaches to the
pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(v) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash
suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
(vi) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely
encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm
with the non-trigger hand without being burned;
(vii) a manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is
unloaded; or

 

[Marine Cpl]

I used to think it was just a firearm just like the ATF says. The thing is, the ATF's definition doesn't matter. The ATF isn't going to charge you. NY will. They'll charge you via Penal Law 265. So you'll call it a firearm and they will call it a pistol.

 

[spat]

I used to think it was just a firearm just like the ATF says. The thing is, the ATF's definition doesn't matter. The ATF isn't going to charge you. NY will. They'll charge you via Penal Law 265. So you'll call it a firearm and they will call it a pistol.

If ny calls it a firearm it needs to be on a pistol permit. The question about this is that while it is unquestionably a firearm by the federal definition, what does NY call it ?

Don't forget that a Remington 700 is a firearm if you ask the feds, but not if you ask NY.

 

[spat]

I used to think it was just a firearm just like the ATF says. The thing is, the ATF's definition doesn't matter. The ATF isn't going to charge you. NY will. They'll charge you via Penal Law 265. So you'll call it a firearm and they will call it a pistol.

What's makes it a pistol though ?

 

[Eddie Gunks]

The FO is an "other" by definition.

While i think you and a good lawyer could articulate that in court and get off.......as a business this is one i am not willing to be involved with.

Build one yourself. Easy enough. 11.5 inch barrel. Forward grip and car. Buffer tube and it is over 26 inches making it an "other".

I built one for me before i had my shop. There is/was a shop transfering them. Not sure what their status is.

Again, i did my own research. Read the law personally. And as a private citizen i built one and used it. I AM NOT SAYING YOU MAY NOT MAY NOT GET ARRESTED.

IT IS POSSIBLE TO BE ARRESTED FOR IT.

IT IS VERY POSSIBLE YOU CAN GET OFF.

Read the ACTUAL LAW and make your own decision.

Again. I made one for myself as an individual. I was fully confident and ready to defend myself is necessary. I am NOT WILLING TO BE A CO-DEFENDANT (pay your own way.... ) so i do not sell them in my shop.

Ambiguous enough for you?

 

[Jem45472]

Haha, your not willing to sell them speaks volumes though.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If ny calls it a firearm it needs to be on a pistol permit.

Firearms are not pistols. I don't know why people say this. If you read Penal Law 400, nowhere does it say that firearms go on pistol permits. It only says pistols go on pistol licenses to have and carry concealed.

 

[Marine Cpl]

What's makes it a pistol though ?

Nothing. There is no definition for pistols. But there is a definition for Assault Weapons in pistol configurations and if they charge you as having one and give the NY definition of an Assault Weapon in a pistol configuration to a jury, it'll fit.

 

[stuck in ny]

Being that it has a pistol brace, NY will call it an assault pistol. However, if you build one and just put a cover on the buffer tube....

View attachment 12620

It won't be a pistol or a rifle or an AOW. It'll just be a generic firearm by ATF standards and it won't fall into any NY definition. So what could they convict you with as per NY law?

Edit. They'll charge you as having an Assault Weapon. (Pistol with features) You'd have to prove it's not.

They can't; its explicitly declared not a pistol by the highest authority (ATF).

 

[Eddie Gunks]

Haha, your not willing to sell them speaks volumes though.

but as indicated i build one myself back in 2013. and used it. no issues.

again, i am willing to defend myself (with money and lawyers) ....not others.

as indicated above, there was a local shop doing it. pm me if you wanna stop by and talk to them. calling on the phone probably wont get a positive response (revenuers).

 

[stuck in ny]

I'm tired and ready to go to bed, but it looks like the bottom one with the longer barrel and pistol grip would be a firearm? I just was wondering what NYS designates as an assault pistol with a pistol brace.

It has a foreward grip (the slnted one does not count; the atf said this). It never was a pistol before and it cannot be one now because pistols cannot have verticle fore grips since 1934. It is, by every legal definition, not a pistol.

 

[Jem45472]

but as indicated i build one myself back in 2013. and used it. no issues.

again, i am willing to defend myself (with money and lawyers) ....not others.

as indicated above, there was a local shop doing it. pm me if you wanna stop by and talk to them. calling on the phone probably wont get a positive response (revenuers).

I'm not really interested, the ar pistol keeps me happy. I don't mind riding the fine line of what I can and can't have in this state, but I don't want to push it.

 

[stuck in ny]

I'm not really interested, the ar pistol keeps me happy. I don't mind riding the fine line of what I can and can't have in this state, but I don't want to push it.

Everything in this country is riding the line. 15.8? Bad. 16? Good.
We just need good concrete rulings, which we are never going to get.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It has a foreward grip (the slnted one does not count; the atf said this). It never was a pistol before and it cannot be one now because pistols cannot have verticle fore grips since 1934. It is, by every legal definition, not a pistol.

They can't; its explicitly declared not a pistol by the highest authority (ATF).

Charges from Penal Law 265 by NYS do not refer to ATF definitions. For example, let's say you have a Glock 19. It is legally on your pistol license. Check.

Now you decide to add a vertical foregrip to it on the rail like so.

According to the ATF, you no longer have a pistol. You have an AOW. Now let's say you somehow paid the tax stamp to the ATF for this AOW. You are legal as far as the ATF is concerned. Check.

You get arrested by a NY cop when you try to remove it from your permit because it isn't a pistol. He will charge you with having a pistol in an Assault Weapon configuration. You can site the Federal ATF law all you want that it isn't a pistol but according to Penal Law 265, you have a pistol with a forward grip which is an Assault Weapon.

The ATF definitions mean absolutely nothing. They will go by the NY definition in Penal Law 265 of Assault Weapon.

Federal ATF laws do not supercede State laws. If they did, we wouldn't have AW laws.

 

[stuck in ny]

Charges from Penal Law 265 by NYS do not refer to ATF definitions. For example, let's say you have a Glock 19. It is legally on your pistol license. Check.

Now you decide to add a vertical foregrip to it on the rail like so.

According to the ATF, you no longer have a pistol. You have an AOW. Now let's say you somehow paid the tax stamp to the ATF for this AOW. You are legal as far as the ATF is concerned. Check.

You get arrested by a NY cop when you try to remove it from your permit because it isn't a pistol. He will charge you with having a pistol in an Assault Weapon configuration. You can site the Federal ATF law all you want that it isn't a pistol but according to Penal Law 265, you have a pistol with a forward grip which is an Assault Weapon.

The ATF definitions mean absolutely nothing. They will go by the NY definition in Penal Law 265 of Assault Weapon.

Federal ATF laws do not supercede State laws.

The weapon described in the OP was never a pistol, though.

 

[Marine Cpl]

The weapon described in the OP was never a pistol, though.

I understand that. But if they say it's a pistol, what will you say? That it isn't? That the ATF said it isn't? ATF definitions mean nothing. You aren't being charged with a Federal ATF charge in a Federal Court.

You would be charged with a NY Penal Law charge in a NY Court. And when it's written up that you have an AR pistol with a forward grip, a magazine outside of the pistol grip, a weight over 50 oz's, ect, you will have to prove that it isn't a pistol which you will not be able to.

When you site the ATF law they will just continue to say that what you have fits the NY definition of a pistol in an AW configuration.

Then when the jury reads the definition of a pistol in an AW configuration, they will go down the list and agree with the state.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

We just need good concrete rulings, .

NO WE DONT!!!!!!

 

[Marine Cpl]

NO WE DONT!!!!!!

I disagree. Vagueness is what has us in this dilemma. Had we had concrete definitions like California has, we can easily skirt the laws and site their own definitions against them like California residents have done in the past.

It isn't like NY is going to say, well since we have no definition of what is a pistol grip, you are free to go.

Had we had concrete definitions like they do in CA, you would sell certain items in your store that you chose not to sell due to vagueness because you are not willing to defend them on your dime.

For example since there is no clear definition on what a pistol is, you will not sell the above mentioned firearm in your store.

 

[spat]

Firearms are not pistols. I don't know why people say this. If you read Penal Law 400, nowhere does it say that firearms go on pistol permits. It only says pistols go on pistol licenses to have and carry concealed.

If you get caught with a pistol and no permit you are charged with possessing a illegal firearm, not charged with possessing a pistol.

PL 265 makes it quite clear that pistols are firearms. There are other things that NY considers firearms as well, so technically you are correct when you say firearms are not pistols, but that's like saying mammals are not dogs.

3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having
one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle
having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d)
any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or
otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e)
an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the
barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the
distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or
breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the
overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance
between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to
the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique
firearm.

Handguns are one category of "firearm" in NY, all firearms in NY require registration/permitting to be legal (and many cannot be legal at all for us peons). Any gun you can legally have without NYS having it listed by serial number isn't a firearm (according to NYS)

 

[stuck in ny]

If you get caught with a pistol and no permit you are charged with possessing a illegal firearm, not charged with possessing a pistol.

PL 265 makes it quite clear that pistols are firearms. There are other things that NY considers firearms as well, so technically you are correct when you say firearms are not pistols, but that's like saying mammals are not dogs.



Handguns are one category of "firearm" in NY, all firearms in NY require registration/permitting to be legal (and many cannot be legal at all for us peons). Any gun you can legally have without NYS having it listed by serial number isn't a firearm (according to NYS)

The entire law is toothless. Read it. "Made from...". The weapon described by the OP, for example the Franklin model, was never anything else. The law was written before receivers were widely available separately and fails to think of this.

 

[freddy]

The entire law is toothless. Read it. "Made from...". The weapon described by the OP, for example the Franklin model, was never anything else. The law was written before receivers were widely available separately and fails to think of this.

Would you mind explaining this please? Are you suggesting that it is better to buy the Franklin Armory? Or is it better to build something similar from scratch? Or neither?

 

[freddy]

The FO is an "other" by definition.

While i think you and a good lawyer could articulate that in court and get off.......as a business this is one i am not willing to be involved with.

Build one yourself. Easy enough. 11.5 inch barrel. Forward grip and car. Buffer tube and it is over 26 inches making it an "other".

I built one for me before i had my shop. There is/was a shop transfering them. Not sure what their status is.

Again, i did my own research. Read the law personally. And as a private citizen i built one and used it. I AM NOT SAYING YOU MAY NOT MAY NOT GET ARRESTED.

IT IS POSSIBLE TO BE ARRESTED FOR IT.

IT IS VERY POSSIBLE YOU CAN GET OFF.

Read the ACTUAL LAW and make your own decision.

Again. I made one for myself as an individual. I was fully confident and ready to defend myself is necessary. I am NOT WILLING TO BE A CO-DEFENDANT (pay your own way.... ) so i do not sell them in my shop.

Ambiguous enough for you?

Nothing. There is no definition for pistols. But there is a definition for Assault Weapons in pistol configurations and if they charge you as having one and give the NY definition of an Assault Weapon in a pistol configuration to a jury, it'll fit.

It's funny, I consider myself to be fairly methodical and analytical. I'm an airplane pilot. I have read and reread the penal laws again and again. But trying to decipher these laws has my head spinning.

Will, are you suggesting the only way to keep compliant is with a fixed mag? Would it then go on the pistol permit?

BG, are you suggesting it might be compliant with the removable 10 round mag? Would it NOT go on pistol permit?

Any thoughts on this thread @pmcjuryny or @hoodfu ?

 

[Jem45472]

1 No stock or forgrip and fixed mag could go on permit.

2 technically could be detachable mag as it doesn't fit under any of NY definitions, but is a slippery slope.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If you get caught with a pistol and no permit you are charged with possessing a illegal firearm, not charged with possessing a pistol.

PL 265 makes it quite clear that pistols are firearms. There are other things that NY considers firearms as well, so technically you are correct when you say firearms are not pistols, but that's like saying mammals are not dogs.



Handguns are one category of "firearm" in NY, all firearms in NY require registration/permitting to be legal (and many cannot be legal at all for us peons). Any gun you can legally have without NYS having it listed by serial number isn't a firearm (according to NYS)

A short barreled rifle does not go on a pistol permit. That's the point I was trying to make.