M14 abandoned? Whose got a CNC Machine?

[Shadow2]

I often wonder why no one is playing with the M1A design. Its solid, relatively accurate and reliable. But their is room for improvement like adapting the SR25 magazine, improve the trigger, adopting heavier contoured barrels, cleaning up the cast parts with modern CNC machining. So much potential.

 

[dsdmmat]

Lots of companies still producing them.

They are not known for legendary accuracy, since they were battle rifles and only had to hold 2MOA to pass MILSPEC.

 

[Edwardteach72]

You are talking about this yes?


One of the worst battle rifles ever adopted. This gun is literally only on existence because of (at the time) military fuddery.

 

[stuckhere]

Yup, should have been the FAL in 7mm

 

[Robin]

I don't care, in lieu of that great old gun, I love my Mini!
Robin

 

[Jsmegs77]

I like them, in all their iterations, as well as the Mini's. Never owned one, never shot one, just really want to own some and shoot them (which is pretty much my stance on any firearm, kind of like ice cream I haven't met many flavors I don't like).

Just out of curiosity, what about it makes it a -bad- rifle? I hear quibbles about accuracy mostly, and about it being heavy and somewhat complex.... for the sake of discussion why is the M14/M1A a bad thing?

 

[Edwardteach72]

I like them, in all their iterations, as well as the Mini's. Never owned one, never shot one, just really want to own some and shoot them (which is pretty much my stance on any firearm, kind of like ice cream I haven't met many flavors I don't like).

Just out of curiosity, what about it makes it a -bad- rifle? I hear quibbles about accuracy mostly, and about it being heavy and somewhat complex.... for the sake of discussion why is the M14/M1A a bad thing?

Long version short? They took all the good part from the garand and tossed it out and kept all the bad

 

[Robin]

I had one pre-SAFE and it was MOA accurate. The one I qualified with in basic training was still able to consistently knock down the pop up silhouette targets at 500yd's if I did my part.
Lord only knows how many cycles of training that rifle had been through. I never has any kind of malfunction.
Robin

 

[Vapor]

But people on the interwebs say they bad. Old gun bad. Orange man bad. Combloc rifle bad. Poors bad.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It’s not a bad rifle. It’s a good, durable, working rifle for the average person. It’s good for hunting and it’s good for plinking at a few hundred yards on man sized targets. That’s it. That’s where it stops.

For a military application, it sucks. It’s too long for CQB. It has too much recoil for accurate, rapid fire. It’s wooden stock isn’t the most durable in humid, jungle environments. It’s heavier than it’s counterparts.

If it were the tits, the Special Operations community who can use whatever they want would field it along with a Full Auto Mini 14. They don’t. The only people that sing it’s praises are old guys that are stuck in their old ways whether knowingly or not.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

I could honestly give two shits about it's combat application. I think it's a handsomly designed rifle and I'd love to own one. I can only practically speak about the mini14, but if the real deals are anywhere near as fun to shoot as the mini's, where is the problem? Who here is going off to war with one?..............The only problem I see is cost. They cost too much. Which wouldn't be an issue if they were giving the AR platform a run for it's money.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Home defense use could be your war. But that is neither here nor there. Maybe one doesn’t want it for that and just wants a plinker like I posted above.

But price like you said is the real issue. You don’t get more gun for the price. You get less. But if semi auto is what you want in .308, there aren’t many options in this state.

Most companies stop making them since there is no demand for them. That’s why they are hard to find.

 

[Podmonkey]

The M14 was an old school rifle adopted in a new school age. It is a heavy design with an open action susceptible to ingress of dirt, mud and debris. It is expensive to produce. For maximum precision the action must be bedded into the stock and that bedding wears out under recoil and everytime the action is removed from the stock for maintenance and service. It is a complex design with numerous small parts. All in all the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Except in the case that a person just likes the M14/M1A then all bets are off. You like what you like. Objectively though the M14/M1A is an obsolete rifle. Frankly for obsolescent nostalgia kicks I much prefer the Garand.

 

[Robin]

So what! Lots of obsolete guns out there that people still like and some are quite valuable. The FN was a slightly better gun than the 14 in its day and it would be considered a POS by todays standards but it still has a great following. I don't get it.
Robin

 

[Marine Cpl]

So what! Lots of obsolete guns out there that people still like and some are quite valuable. The FN was a slightly better gun than the 14 in its day and it would be considered a POS by todays standards but it still has a great following. I don't get it.
Robin

The OP asked why no one plays with the design. His question was answered.

 

[Edwardteach72]

So what! Lots of obsolete guns out there that people still like and some are quite valuable. The FN was a slightly better gun than the 14 in its day and it would be considered a POS by todays standards but it still has a great following. I don't get it.
Robin

Are you talking about the FAL? Because that is in no way considered a POS by today's standards

 

[eochief66]

You are talking about this yes?
View attachment 56203

One of the worst battle rifles ever adopted. This gun is literally only on existence because of (at the time) military fuddery.

The M14 is a progression in small arms, just like all small arms before it. It had it's negatives, like the weight of the rifle and ammo. But it also had it's pluses like penetration, knock down power and reliability. Especially compared to the M16 at it's time in history.

I was in when the change over occurred, let me tell you very few like the change! Even today many old vets still harbor ill feelings about the M16, and for very good reasons!

So now 52 years later we are seeing the military's need for a larger caliber bullet that will penetrate body armor be a motivator toward dumping the 22 caliber rifle.

Many still like "wood and steel" of the M1a and the M1.

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[Robin]

FAL was a good gun, harder to control than the 14 but more reliable, okay, maybe POS was a bit over kill, but still not a top ten choice by today's standards.
Yes, answered and then some, with differing opinions.
Robin

 

[Edwardteach72]

The M14 is a progression in small arms, just like all small arms before it. It had it's negatives, like the weight of the rifle and ammo. But it also had it's pluses like penetration, knock down power and reliability. Especially compared to the M16 at it's time in history.

I was in when the change over occurred, let me tell you very few like the change! Even today many old vets still harbor ill feelings about the M16, and for very good reasons!

So now 52 years later we are seeing the military's need for a larger caliber bullet that will penetrate body armor be a motivator toward dumping the 22 caliber rifle.

Many still like "wood and steel" of the M1a and the M1.

M14 Forum

A forum community dedicated to M14 and M1A Rifle owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about optics, ammunition, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, Modern, Devine, SOCOM, EBR, classifieds, and more!

m14forum.com

It was not a progression. It was legit a bull shit call from a shitty army general who was more concerned with getting to pick the military's next rifle and his name in the history books while being a giant fudd.

 

[Edwardteach72]

FAL was a good gun, harder to control than the 14 but more reliable, okay, maybe POS was a bit over kill, but still not a top ten choice by today's standards.
Yes, answered and then some, with differing opinions.
Robin

It's actually able to be modernized (DSA is doing so, just hit or miss QC sadly) and one of the reasons the FAL isnt as good as it should have been is because of the shitty M14 and aboved mentioned shitty general...

The FAL was originally designed for an intermediate cartridge and as a while was a smaller rifle.

The whole deal was the General told FN and nato that the the US would adopt the FAL as long as they remembered it for the good ol american 308. So FN went back and bulked up the whole design not knowing the general was just making NATO adopt the 308 and screw the US into adopting the M14

 

[Podmonkey]

The M14 is a progression in small arms, just like all small arms before it. It had it's negatives, like the weight of the rifle and ammo. But it also had it's pluses like penetration, knock down power and reliability. Especially compared to the M16 at it's time in history.

I was in when the change over occurred, let me tell you very few like the change! Even today many old vets still harbor ill feelings about the M16, and for very good reasons!

So now 52 years later we are seeing the military's need for a larger caliber bullet that will penetrate body armor be a motivator toward dumping the 22 caliber rifle.

Many still like "wood and steel" of the M1a and the M1.

M14 Forum

A forum community dedicated to M14 and M1A Rifle owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about optics, ammunition, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, Modern, Devine, SOCOM, EBR, classifieds, and more!

m14forum.com

Some of your points are based on fallacies.
The lingering reputation of the supposed problems with the M16/AR15 are leftovers from the disastrous introduction of the M16 in Vietnam. These were caused by a change in the powder spec from what the M16 was originally designed for which and by some truly baffling and down right negligent decisions on the part of the Ordinance Corps such as omitting, after the original production prototypes included, items such as chrome line bores, chambers and BCG internals. Also the use of corrosive primers and the lack of issued cleaning kits alongside the gross misinformation regarding cleaning requirements of the M16 caused all of the issues attributed to the M16. It has been suggested, with so e evidence to back it up, that these deficiencies were intentionally caused by the Ordinance Board in an act of sabotage to keep the M14 in service. Regardless these issues were rectified with the M16A1 and the M193 ball ammunition and I think you will find that veteran's experience with the A1 model was positive.
Regarding body armor penetration the 5.56x45 M995 AP cartridge compares favorably with the 7.62x51 M993 AP cartridge. The advantage of the 7.62 has over the 5.56, in infantry rifles and carbines, is superior energy retention and lethality at longer range. Bit this comes at the cost of far greater weight and far greater recoil. This in turn leads to a reduction in individual ammo readout and much reduced efective automatic fire which both add up to drastically reduced volume of effective fire from the individual soldier which is why the switch was made to the 5.56 in the first place.

FAL was a good gun, harder to control than the 14 but more reliable, okay, maybe POS was a bit over kill, but still not a top ten choice by today's standards.
Yes, answered and then some, with differing opinions.
Robin

I have never had the opportunity to shoot an M14 in full auto, I understand it is quite a handful to do so however. I have had the opportunity to shoot an FN FAL and a G3 back to back and I found the FAL to be the more controllable rifle. But it was still very difficult to hold on target, impossible for me in fact.
That same day I also shot an M4, AK47 and AK74. The M4 and AK74 were much, much easier to hold on target over even extended bursts. I also had the opportunity to shoot a variety of 9mm submachine guns including the vaunted MP5. With the MP5 it would be easy to empty an entire magazine into a chest sized target area out to 50 meters. The Sterling submachinegun was my favorite of the day however.

 

[meketrefe]

No matter how much money you dump into that design is never going to be a cositently accurate rifle. You will have better luck retrofitting other designs.
It is not a bad rifle design given you have a good receiber and parts but do not pursue greatness with it.
This horse has been beaten before.

 

[Shadow2]

I suspect those who complain about accuracy never shot a Match Version

 

[dsdmmat]

I suspect those who complain about accuracy never shot a Match Version

Ehh I have a couple. One LRB M25 chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor and put in a JAE100 G3 stock and one Springfield M1A loaded version.

While the 6.5 CM is a $6K rifle and will shoot sub MOA it still doesn’t hold a candle to the two AR308s, I built in 6.5 Creedmoor for group size and consistency. I spent 2.5K less (for both) building them than I have put into the M25.

While I love the M1 Garand and M14 rifles they just are not designed to win smallest shot group competitions and they should not be entered in such events.

 

[Podmonkey]

Ehh I have a couple. One LRB M25 chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor and put in a JAE100 G3 stock and one Springfield M1A loaded version.

While the 6.5 CM is a $6K rifle and will shoot sub MOA it still doesn’t hold a candle to the two AR308s, I built in 6.5 Creedmoor for group size and consistency. I spent 2.5K less (for both) building them than I have put into the M25.

While I love the M1 Garand and M14 rifles they just are not designed to win smallest shot group competitions and not should they be entered in such events.

I think its perfectly okay to enjoy a rifle just because.
Its just good to be honest and realistic and not become emotionally involved in the performance of a particular design, just as you are.
I still think the M1 Garand is one of the most entertaining rifles you can shoot.

 

[JaguarJaguarGolf]

I’ve owned and shot an International Harvester Garand, a Springfield M1A, and a FN FAL. I shot the FAL offhand best of all. It is also the easiest to maintain IMHO. TheFAL is easier to put a scope on for hunting.

 

[meketrefe]

No matter how much money one dumps into one they are not consistent.
They are not bad firearms but they are not great neither and they are not worth the price tag on them.