New cartridge for US military

[Tisto]

As I have been reading, the US military has made a decision on their new cartridge. It will be a 6.8 X 51. Although I could not find a tremendous amount of information about it, what I did find is interesting. The case will be two pieces. The base will be steel, and the rest will be brass. It will be loaded to a very high pressure (80,000psi) and is intended to produce a muzzle velocity of 3000fps with a 135gr bullet. As far as I can tell, this is basically a .308 Win case necked down to .277. This round will be both magazine fed and belt fed, whichnecessitates an all new weapon system of personal rifles as well as squad automatic weapons.

The Army has determined that the 5.56 is inadequate for use against military forces wearing body armor and has decided to trade in their assault weapons for battle rifles. The USMC has stated that at this time they have no desire to switch weapon systems. Likewise, this will play havoc with the rest of NATO countries which also have no desire to switch.

The logistics of ammunition resupplies alone will be a challenge, not to mention the fact that a soldier will not be able to carry as much ammunition into battle. There is a lot to think about this whole idea, both good and bad. Your thoughts ?

 

[RedBreast21]

Speed kills. Then of course speed with a bullet that holds together kills better when body armor is an issue. But honestly there is money in change. lol

 

[Jmac00]

I think some general has a nephew or cousin that invested in a ammunition company and needs the work to make a profit

 

[Saltwater60]

So now that they turned in their assault riffles does this mean we can have them since the military doesn’t have them?

 

[Acer-m14]

"
Despite the appearance of many other rifle cartridges since 1925, the .270 still ranks way up there. This popularity is often attributed to a writer named John Woolf O’Connor, born in Arizona in 1902. Nicknamed Jack, he eventually became the shooting columnist for Outdoor Life, back when “outdoor life” primarily meant hunting and fishing, not mountain biking.

O’Connor used the .270 a lot, partly because of living in the American West. Shots at big game tended to be longer than “back east,” where the .30-30 was the quintessential deer cartridge. The flat trajectory of the .270 made 300- and 400- yard shots possible with iron sights, which dominated hunting until after the war, and the 130-grain bullet worked great on deer and wild sheep."

i reload for the 270 win .. 4350 .. 130gr BTSP .. * note at the bottom on the reloading page for hunting .. compressed load .. 3300fps

nope i haven't loaded that yet .. but its in the reloading book ..

and to note .. 30-06 necks down to 270win .

So .. a 270win FMJBT 130gr @3300 fps ?? hummm

 

[Tisto]

"
Despite the appearance of many other rifle cartridges since 1925, the .270 still ranks way up there. This popularity is often attributed to a writer named John Woolf O’Connor, born in Arizona in 1902. Nicknamed Jack, he eventually became the shooting columnist for Outdoor Life, back when “outdoor life” primarily meant hunting and fishing, not mountain biking.

O’Connor used the .270 a lot, partly because of living in the American West. Shots at big game tended to be longer than “back east,” where the .30-30 was the quintessential deer cartridge. The flat trajectory of the .270 made 300- and 400- yard shots possible with iron sights, which dominated hunting until after the war, and the 130-grain bullet worked great on deer and wild sheep."

i reload for the 270 win .. 4350 .. 130gr BTSP .. * note at the bottom on the reloading page for hunting .. compressed load .. 3300fps

nope i haven't loaded that yet .. but its in the reloading book ..

and to note .. 30-06 necks down to 270win .

So .. a 270win FMJBT 130gr @3300 fps ?? hummm

This is by no means a .270 Win ! About the only thing this has in common with the .270 Win cartridge is the .277 bullet diameter.

This has much more in common with the 7mm08 albeit with a lot more pressure resulting with an additional 200 - 300fps.

Sig, one of the companies tasked with development of the cartridge, has, I believe, named this the .277 FURY.

Still, the overall length of the cartridge means that an entirely new weapon system must be developed for it. It will not be as simple as swapping out a barrel and bolt in the M4 and calling it a day.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Sig already is taking pre orders on their NGR chambered in the 277fury

 

[Acer-m14]

The base will be steel, and the rest will be brass. It will be loaded to a very high pressure (80,000psi) and is intended to produce a muzzle velocity of 3000fps with a 135gr bullet.

just asking .. .. like i said .. the 270win can already hit over 3000 fps with the same bullet ..

why make a whole new round and a gun that can shoot it ...

just seams silly to me .. but hey the taxpayer will be paying for it anyway ..

 

[Tisto]

just asking .. .. like i said .. the 270win can already hit over 3000 fps with the same bullet ..

why make a whole new round and a gun that can shoot it ...

just seams silly to me .. but hey the taxpayer will be paying for it anyway ..

I suspect that the new round will fit comfortably in an AR-10 size platform, and that would make the basis for the new battle rifle would be the main reason. The new round would be more ballistically efficient than the .308 Win as well as being slightly lighter in weight, allowing the indevidual soldier to carry more ammunition. It would also provide a great deal more power than the current 5.56 round.

Ballistically speaking, the 7mm bullet has a better sectional density and ballistic coefficient than other calibers. When combined with rather impressive velocities it makes for a flat trajectory with impressive accuracy.

The .270 Win is derived from the .30-06 case, which requires a long length action. A sister cartridge is the .25-06, which is in it's own right an impressive round. There are many more cartridges born from the .30-06, such as the 8mm-06. Each has their niche.

I suspect that overall length was the driving factor to develop a new round. I also suspect that the AR-10 will get a major makeover and be the basis for the new battle rifle. Details on the issue are still difficult to find. It is also quite possible that ideas from the FAL and SCAR will be incorporated into the new platform.

 

[Acer-m14]

i forgot the long action / short action part .. lol ..

 

[Edwardteach72]

@Drinkthekoolaid

MCX-SPEAR

First Production Run Special Edition Now Available at Select Dealers MSRP: $7999.00

www.sigsauer.com

 

[SomeSoldier]

just asking .. .. like i said .. the 270win can already hit over 3000 fps with the same bullet ..

why make a whole new round and a gun that can shoot it ...

just seams silly to me .. but hey the taxpayer will be paying for it anyway ..

You answered your own question.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

@Drinkthekoolaid

MCX-SPEAR

First Production Run Special Edition Now Available at Select Dealers MSRP: $7999.00

www.sigsauer.com

I find it literally hilarious that sig named the cartridge
.277 furry

It sounds interesting

In case someone doesn't know what the hell I'm talking about

Urban Dictionary: furry

There is no one single definition of what a furry is. Even within the furry fandom, people cannot always agree on just what makes a person a furry or not. Some would argue that to be a furry, you must think and talk like one (i.e. use furry specific words and phrases). Even if you go to...

www.urbandictionary.com

 

[SomeSoldier]

My head goes right to bad things. I think that the gov is worried about us serfs uprising. They know a lot of us have the means to own body armor. They also know a lot of us don't have the means to own AP ammo.

I could easily see this being done so the gov has the upper hand. It would take a decade for the civilian populas to catch up to ammo stocks like we have in 5.56 or .223 now.

I also realize that there are foreign enemies that this would give us an advantage over. But in a real conflict between super powers I am not sure how much this would matter.

 

[Vapor]

This sounds stupid af. We've already been down these roads.


It's clear something more akin to 6.5 Grendel would work better.

Maybe in 30 years they can reinvent 5.56.

 

[oc shooter]

well never cared for the 556 any way but if memory serves the 7.62 will defeat body armor pretty well and we and NATO probably have billions and billions of it on hand it doesn't need a special case and will get the job done seems to me that would be the most cost effective way to go buy a new battle rifle and new saw and save the tax payers a hell of lot of money

 

[SomeSoldier]

well never cared for the 556 any way but if memory serves the 7.62 will defeat body armor pretty well and we and NATO probably have billions and billions of it on hand it doesn't need a special case and will get the job done seems to me that would be the most cost effective way to go buy a new battle rifle and new saw and save the tax payers a hell of lot of money

Too heavy for infantry to carry a combat load.

 

[ManrisFrack]

This has been going on for a few years now. Gov gave some companies a 6.8mm projectile to a few companies and said, 'Make us a new round, a rifle and a machine gun.'

As far as I know, they have yet to pick a winner from 3 different gun/round systems. The other two contenders were polymer cases (one being telescopic).

And it's the SIG Fury, not furry. Don't let your deviant fetishes make you see things.

 

[oc shooter]

too heavy ok by how much same size case one brass one brass and steel one 277 the other 308 one battle proven the other not all ammo companies produce the 308 the other no one does billions and billions and billions of rounds on hand the other no one has seems like a no brainer to me I'm all for inovation but if my life is on the line i think i'll take the tried and true even if it's a little heavier

 

[Vapor]

Depends on the armor. Many armor types are actually better defeated by smaller diameter, quick rounds better than big, slow, and heavy.

 

[Podmonkey]

Not gonna happen. Too powerful for full auto use in infantry carbines, to bulky to carry the volume of ammunition dictated by modern combat.
Also M995 5.56x45 AP punches body armor slightly more readily than M993 7.62x51 AP does.
Thus 6.8 cartridge represents a downgrade in firepower. But given the utter and absolute incompetence of the high level brass such a fuck up decision is not beyond the pale.
The way forward is along the lines of the newer 6mm AR15 cartridges. Load it telescoped in a polymer case and you might have a cartridge worth switching over to.

 

[FRANKIE]

Any love for the .243 Winchester in that role?
Necked down .308
Up to 4000 fps with a fifty grain bullet
I think it would be grand.

 

[meketrefe]

As I have been reading, the US military has made a decision on their new cartridge. It will be a 6.8 X 51. Although I could not find a tremendous amount of information about it, what I did find is interesting. The case will be two pieces. The base will be steel, and the rest will be brass. It will be loaded to a very high pressure (80,000psi) and is intended to produce a muzzle velocity of 3000fps with a 135gr bullet. As far as I can tell, this is basically a .308 Win case necked down to .277. This round will be both magazine fed and belt fed, whichnecessitates an all new weapon system of personal rifles as well as squad automatic weapons.

The Army has determined that the 5.56 is inadequate for use against military forces wearing body armor and has decided to trade in their assault weapons for battle rifles. The USMC has stated that at this time they have no desire to switch weapon systems. Likewise, this will play havoc with the rest of NATO countries which also have no desire to switch.

The logistics of ammunition resupplies alone will be a challenge, not to mention the fact that a soldier will not be able to carry as much ammunition into battle. There is a lot to think about this whole idea, both good and bad. Your thoughts ?

Where dis you get the info from? No current brass design can hold 80k psi wo major problems.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Where dis you get the info from? No current brass design can hold 80k psi wo major problems.

Saami

 

[oc shooter]

well lets see too powerful the FN Fal was carried by a whole lot of people for a lot of years and is still being used around the world so maybe the US Army should just man up I have my doubts that the 556 will penatrate armore at long range better than the 762 be that as it may an unproven case such as the bimetal round from Sig or the plastic round from tru velocity make no sence to me they may prove out in the long run but for my tax dollars and the lives of my grandsons it's folly we are what 30 trillion dollars in debt and we want to waste money on an experiment it's time we took a long hard look at the way we let the government waste our money and our lives

 

[Vapor]

At long range, nothing really goes through body armor well, especially level 4 ceramic armor.



Even forgetting that, this all still sounds stupid as fuck.


Thought about it again, still stupid as fuck.


Like taking the stupid as fuck rocket to the planet dumb as fuck using the fuel of u.s. tax payers.


Make something like 6x45mm or 6.5x47MM.


Ugg.


They'll end up sticking with 5.56 in the end.

 

[Vapor]

Any love for the .243 Winchester in that role?
Necked down .308
Up to 4000 fps with a fifty grain bullet
I think it would be grand.

I like where your head is at, but...
No, for a few reasons.


1. Still takes a full size ar-10 sized frame
2. .243 (6x51MM) is a horrible barrel burner, even in bolt actions. A full auto semi auto only makes this worse. Meaning, very short barrel life.


I've long thought a 6 or 6.5 mm projectile at about 90-100 grains would be perfect for the army and deer sized game.


The whole idea of a .277 or .280 cartridge is not new. The fal was originally in .280 in Britain, and the m1 garand was originally designed in an approximately. 277 caliber.


Still, too much horsepower for the army. Long gone are the days you need to down cavalry horses, and that's what the .30-03 and 8mm types were meant to do.


It was military politics that got us the .308 in for first place. No one else in NATO wanted the x51, when the entire rest of the world say what 8mm kurz and x39 was capable of.

 

[holdover]

Let the situation or areas of operations dictate the rifle. One general purpose rifle for the US is not the best path. Our theaters of operation are so different and varied that a few choices should be made available to the commanders . A 556 might be fine for a place like Somalia but not for the mountains in Afghanistan. Its nice to have a choice . One shoe fits all is great for logistical purposes . , but not necessarily for the battle field.

The soviets issued their PPSh to whole units in the battle of Stalingrad , but thier primary weapon was the Nagant on the steppe. The situation dictates what is best. The Russians suffered in Afganistan mountains when the Hajis outranged them with the accurate British 303 Enfield from positions up in the boulders forcing Russians to climb to get a good shot off .

Flexibility is a great asset to have.

 

[Tisto]

Let the situation or areas of operations dictate the rifle. One general purpose rifle for the US is not the best path. Our theaters of operation are so different and varied that a few choices should be made available to the commanders . A 556 might be fine for a place like Somalia but not for the mountains in Afghanistan. Its nice to have a choice . One shoe fits all is great for logistical purposes . , but not necessarily for the battle field.

The soviets issued their PPSh to whole units in the battle of Stalingrad , but thier primary weapon was the Nagant on the steppe. The situation dictates what is best. The Russians suffered in Afganistan mountains when the Hajis outranged them with the accurate British 303 Enfield from positions up in the boulders forcing Russians to climb to get a good shot off .

Flexibility is a great asset to have.

Kinda like only having one hunting rifle for everything from squirrels to moose. I totally agree. The biggest problem with that is having those choices available in the location they're needed. Next biggest problem is supplying the proper ammo in theatre. This was a major problem during the early wars in this country. Too many non-standardized weapons on the battlefield with no way to supply them all with the correct ammo. Still, having the ability to choose between a lightweight assault carbine and a full power battle rifle seems the to be smartest approach. The Army has said they're committed to making this change, while the Marines are rejecting the idea. It looks as though they may just get both. Keeping the M4 and acquiring a battle rifle. I have yet to hear what the Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard are saying about any of this.

 

[holdover]

I think the logistics could be over come. they both have their advantages if deployed properly.