NY State Senate Bill S9601

[RedBreast21]

Well then who will be the authority on providing the class and is there a conflict of interest in the selection of approved individuals?

**additional comment**

By a conflict of interest I mean the connection to those selecting the approved instructors and any relationship, personal, professional that may exist that could possible be seen as a conflict since these courses will require the applicant pay for the certificate.

 

[spat]

You're vision is clouded. Yeah, the NRA's legal team sucks, and WLP is a piece of shit, but the serfs of NY NEED the NRA instructors if this training requirement sticks for ccw.

Or, they make it too restrictive and the whole training requirement gets struck down instead.


You can't require training that isn't available.

 

[FrankenCub]

Well then who will be the authority on providing the class and is there a conflict of interest in the selection of approved individuals?

Already a conflict of interest, Broome insisting I can only use their approved instructors.

 

[JunkBoxFull]

Or, they make it too restrictive and the whole training requirement gets struck down instead.


You can't require training that isn't available.

BINGO! Somebody who gets it! Sometimes you just gotta let shit happen.

 

[RedBreast21]

Or, they make it too restrictive and the whole training requirement gets struck down instead.


You can't require training that isn't available.

Haven't they already set the standard to be 16 hours and range time? A large block of it would have to be covering existing NY laws as it pertains to self defense. There can't be a qualification portion for possible denial since that would clearly be struck down in even the most liberal court when it comes to a constitutional right. That's a slippery slope even the most progressive court won't touch on.

 

[spat]

Haven't they already set the standard to be 16 hours and range time? A large block of it would have to be covering existing NY laws as it pertains to self defense. There can't be a qualification portion for possible denial since that would clearly be struck down in even the most liberal court when it comes to a constitutional right. That's a slippery slope even the most progressive court won't touch on.

While it's clearly unconstitutional, it is likely that a court would uphold a requirement for you to sit for 16 hours in a room, then fire a few rounds at a target.

Any sort of test OTOH, should be struck down same as the literacy tests of old for voting.

What we need is a poor minority sympathetic plaintiff to argue that the requirements are onerous enough that they will prevent her from being able to exercise the right. "I can't afford to spend 16 hours in class, my child care budget is already stretched thin covering the night classes I take after waitressing all day..."

 

[FP1201]

Already a conflict of interest, Broome insisting I can only use their approved instructors.

Many years ago about fifteen of us had a NRA Handgun Safety Instructor come out from Buffalo to train and certify us, but I never did anything with my Instructors Certificate, Now I checked with Jefferson County at that time (it was when new applicants would now be required to take a Training Course) and they told me all I really needed to do was submit a Letter to the Sheriff who would verify and add me to the list of Instructors, simple as that. Currently there are a couple DCCS Trained Instructors (who I expect are also NRA Trained/Certified) offering the new Course covering Jefferson, Lewis, and St. Lawrence.
I tried to find the .pdf of the CCIA but on this laptop it's just too difficult, but unless I'm wrong, it clearly says that Instructors have to be NRA Certified, which is a good standard, but most certainly isn't necessarily the best or only modality of certification, and that requirement MAY discriminate against other qualified instructors. Nowhere in the NRA's material does it cover the additional topics to be covered in the 16 hour course, which in my mind moots the requirement of the Law, but this Law doesn't seem to be well thought out, perhaps by design.
It was pointed out that the NRA Instructors DO NOT work for the NRA, they were only trained by a Certified Instructor who offered the block of Training to become an instructor and it was done so for a fee set by same instructor. We took the course, he took our money, gave us materials, and after successfully testing sent notices of completion to the NRA.
On a tangent: The number of training hours required for Security Guard is longer, but only requires a 70% to pass where as under CCIA it's 80% for both classroom and Range.
The Senate (despite being a democrat majority) typically un-fucks the sophomoric shit passed by the ASSembly.

 

[Acer-m14]

do you get the meme message ??? ...

 

[Acer-m14]

BTW .,. who trained the trainers who trained the trainers .. oh i made a document .. im a certified trainer now ..

so who was the magical gun trainer that started the training that made that ?

 

[ICEMAN]

What are the other "viable options" for receiving the Training required under the recently passed Concealed Carry Improvement Law that demands that 16 hours of instruction and an additional 2 hours of Range qualification be conducted prior to either initial issuance or renewal of a NYS Handgun Licenses, said training has to be conducted by a Certified NRA Instructor. The viable option of moving out of NYS or becoming Law Enforcement is a bit too radical by comparison.
I do find it ironic that the Legislature wrote this requirement into the Law while at the same time the State AG and her handlers are doing their damnedest to destroy the NRA as a Pro-Gun Association.

Besides NRA Instructors and DCJS instructors there really isn't any options. DCJS are all active NY law enforcement or recently retired since they recert every 5 years. I don't believe they can once retired, but may have a few years active depending on last recert. I retired from federal law enforcement, but NY doesn't recognize my 24 years of training and academies or any other federal training. I was certified by the NRA so I can continue to teach firearms in NY. If the NRA instructors are no longer certified: there will be every few authorized instructors in NY. Most active NY law enforcement instructors aren't going to have much time to teach a 16 hour class. NY is doing this to make training harder to get. People will be waiting months to get the required training and the cost will likely go up too. The training part of the NRA and the NRA ILA that lobbies for gun rights are basically two separate organizations within the NRA. This bill is designed to further erode our already limited rights in this state.

 

[Bigfoot]

Wow! What a mess this situation is.
I can remember years ago someone here posting.

"Someday we will look back on the NY UNSAFE Act as the good ole days."

And here we are...

And it's going to get even worse than it is now.

FUKH

 

[Bigfoot]

Not the same thing, but I wonder if the Hunter Safety Course will be affected at some point.
You know, to make it almost impossible for someone (usually young) to acquire an NYS
hunting license. Between Albany and NYC they want to wipe out the gun culture in NY entirely.

This is a little off topic, my apologies. But IIRC the Hunter Safety Course is run by NRA members.
So that's where my thoughts bounced to.

 

[camper4lyfe]

Besides NRA Instructors and DCJS instructors there really isn't any options. DCJS are all active NY law enforcement or recently retired since they recert every 5 years. I don't believe they can once retired, but may have a few years active depending on last recert. I retired from federal law enforcement, but NY doesn't recognize my 24 years of training and academies or any other federal training. I was certified by the NRA so I can continue to teach firearms in NY. If the NRA instructors are no longer certified: there will be every few authorized instructors in NY. Most active NY law enforcement instructors aren't going to have much time to teach a 16 hour class. NY is doing this to make training harder to get. People will be waiting months to get the required training and the cost will likely go up too. The training part of the NRA and the NRA ILA that lobbies for gun rights are basically two separate organizations within the NRA. This bill is designed to further erode our already limited rights in this state.

Bingo

 

[Nontypical]

Besides NRA Instructors and DCJS instructors there really isn't any options. DCJS are all active NY law enforcement or recently retired since they recert every 5 years. I don't believe they can once retired, but may have a few years active depending on last recert. I retired from federal law enforcement, but NY doesn't recognize my 24 years of training and academies or any other federal training. I was certified by the NRA so I can continue to teach firearms in NY. If the NRA instructors are no longer certified: there will be every few authorized instructors in NY. Most active NY law enforcement instructors aren't going to have much time to teach a 16 hour class. NY is doing this to make training harder to get. People will be waiting months to get the required training and the cost will likely go up too. The training part of the NRA and the NRA ILA that lobbies for gun rights are basically two separate organizations within the NRA. This bill is designed to further erode our already limited rights in this state.

^^This. And according to one of the DCJS instructors, there are only 5 instructors here on Long Island. He was booked up until April when I spoke to him 3 weeks ago.

 

[ManualF150]

^^This. And according to one of the DCJS instructors, there are only 5 instructors here on Long Island. He was booked up until April when I spoke to him 3 weeks ago.

Here we go again...

They will wind up randomly cancelling, "be too busy", etc, etc. Yep, too busy by being "booked up".

As I've mentioned before on here, in order to get unrestricted in Oneida County for example, there were ONLY 2 people that could do the evaluation and live fire. I heard they were "always busy" and they failed almost everyone except for those that were in their circle or knew someone.

They should be running classes 24x7x365 if they are that "booked up".

None of this is good folks...

 

[Nontypical]

In defense of the instructors, the class that I recently took was very accommodating. They wanted you to pass the class and were willing to take the extra time in order to help you do just that.

Another class that I heard about that was given by retired local LE and was DCJS certified. They had the same attitude and wanted you to pass the class and get your certificate.

I can’t see how failing almost everyone would be good for business.

 

[ManualF150]

In defense of the instructors, the class that I recently took was very accommodating. They wanted you to pass the class and were willing to take the extra time in order to help you do just that.

Another class that I heard about that was given by retired local LE and was DCJS certified. They had the same attitude and wanted you to pass the class and get your certificate.

I can’t see how failing almost everyone would be good for business.

The two folks that were doing it weren't in the business. If you know what I mean.

In other words, it was two people that didn't care about gun rights. It was either you knew them (or one of their cronies), or you didn't get booked... blah, blah, blah, I'm always busy.

I'm not mentioning any names, but it's publicly available if you do some research.

How that stood for so long was beyond me. But then again, this is NY after all.

 

[FP1201]

Besides NRA Instructors and DCJS instructors there really isn't any options. DCJS are all active NY law enforcement or recently retired since they recert every 5 years. I don't believe they can once retired, but may have a few years active depending on last recert. I retired from federal law enforcement, but NY doesn't recognize my 24 years of training and academies or any other federal training. I was certified by the NRA so I can continue to teach firearms in NY. If the NRA instructors are no longer certified: there will be every few authorized instructors in NY. Most active NY law enforcement instructors aren't going to have much time to teach a 16 hour class. NY is doing this to make training harder to get. People will be waiting months to get the required training and the cost will likely go up too. The training part of the NRA and the NRA ILA that lobbies for gun rights are basically two separate organizations within the NRA. This bill is designed to further erode our already limited rights in this state.

For months there wasn't even a syllabus available that spelled out what was to be covered and the testing materials.
The Legislature and Governor acted as though there were only a few Licensees or applicants making it clear they either truly had no idea what they were legislating or knew exactly and acted against the People... few see the irony in all the requirements that disqualify people highly unlikely to be law abiding, while those that would use guns to commit crimes will completely ogonori those requirements.

 

[camper4lyfe]

For months there wasn't even a syllabus available that spelled out what was to be covered and the testing materials.
The Legislature and Governor acted as though there were only a few Licensees or applicants making it clear they either truly had no idea what they were legislating or knew exactly and acted against the People... few see the irony in all the requirements that disqualify people highly unlikely to be law abiding, while those that would use guns to commit crimes will completely ogonori those requirements.

They know exactly what they're doing

 

[GOPerfect]

I am conflicted on this. I really am. I am 100% against thing that the State of NY puts forth that will restrict the Rights of the people, but, I am always glad to hear that bad comes upon the NRA. Yep, I am conflicted.

I doubt it, but maybe the more the State restricts, the more citizens will wake the F up.

This would NOT be happening if all of NY would have voted. Yes, I blame this on the citizens for not voting.

 

[Nontypical]

I could be wrong as this doesn’t pertain to me living in Suffolk, but didn’t the state drop the requirement during the Antonyuk case for people living north of Westchester to have to take the course at all?

 

[camper4lyfe]

I am conflicted on this. I really am. I am 100% against thing that the State of NY puts forth that will restrict the Rights of the people, but, I am always glad to hear that bad comes upon the NRA. Yep, I am conflicted.

I doubt it, but maybe the more the State restricts, the more citizens will wake the F up.

This would NOT be happening if all of NY would have voted. Yes, I blame this on the citizens for not voting.

In this instance, I really don't think it touches the NRA itself. I suppose the only thing it could do is potentially cut into profits from guys paying to become a certified instructor. In the end, it hurts the serfs more than it hurts the organization.

 

[camper4lyfe]

I could be wrong as this doesn’t pertain to me living in Suffolk, but didn’t the state drop the requirement during the Antonyuk case for people living north of Westchester to have to take the course at all?

The state still requires the training for new permits. I've lost track, or am confused on renewal vs recert requirements.

 

[GOPerfect]

In this instance, I really don't think it touches the NRA itself. I suppose the only thing it could do is potentially cut into profits from guys paying to become a certified instructor. In the end, it hurts the serfs more than it hurts the organization.

Agreed. I do not know if the NRA gets a cut of the fees. I am so anti the NRA, sometimes I am blinded by the larger picture.

 

[ICEMAN]

I am conflicted on this. I really am. I am 100% against thing that the State of NY puts forth that will restrict the Rights of the people, but, I am always glad to hear that bad comes upon the NRA. Yep, I am conflicted.

I doubt it, but maybe the more the State restricts, the more citizens will wake the F up.

This would NOT be happening if all of NY would have voted. Yes, I blame this on the citizens for not voting.

i'm a life member, but don't give anymore to the NRA. The NRA instructors are just regular citizens who enjoy teaching firearms. In my case it has been a work around to continue teaching required training in NY. Since we pay to be instructors, it hurts us more than the NRA. The $30 they get every 2 years to renew certifications probably won't even pay for one of Wayne's new suits.

 

[GOPerfect]

i'm a life member, but don't give anymore to the NRA. The NRA instructors are just regular citizens who enjoy teaching firearms. In my case it has been a work around to continue teaching required training in NY. Since we pay to be instructors, it hurts us more than the NRA. The $30 they get every 2 years to renew certifications probably won't even pay for one of Wayne's new suits.

It does suck when the "little" guy is hurt due to the policies of the elected class.

 

[ICEMAN]

For months there wasn't even a syllabus available that spelled out what was to be covered and the testing materials.
The Legislature and Governor acted as though there were only a few Licensees or applicants making it clear they either truly had no idea what they were legislating or knew exactly and acted against the People... few see the irony in all the requirements that disqualify people highly unlikely to be law abiding, while those that would use guns to commit crimes will completely ogonori those requirements.

I'm against the training requirement and actually wasn't going to do permit classes. I only had second thoughts after several people contacted me to run a class. I figured I would provide much better training than required by the state and try to keep the price affordable.

 

[Nontypical]

The state still requires the training for new permits. I've lost track, or am confused on renewal vs recert requirements.

At least where you live, only people with new permits will be in search of instructors in that case. There is a huge demand here as everyone here will have to take the class, unless you decide to settle for a Premises license. Even prior Sportsman licenses are now Premises.