Opinions on Lightweight/Pencil Barrels

[UltraT]

What are your opinions on pencil barrels for semi auto rifles (and also on lightweight contour bolt actions if you'd like to add that)? Of course they heat up faster, but with a quality barrel maker does it make a big enough difference to matter much? I'm not referring to match precision, bench shooting rifles, but to general purpose or hunting rifles. I'm kind of leaning towards a pencil barrel in the future for an AR.

Worth the weight savings and better balance?

 

[dsdmmat]

If you are not shooting more than a couple of rounds at a time, the weight savings would out weigh the accuracy consistency at sustained fire rates.

 

[UltraT]

If you are not shooting more than a couple of rounds at a time, the weight savings would out weigh the accuracy consistency at sustained fire rates.

But at how many rounds do you think the heat would become too detrimental on a semi auto, and how bad would it even get? If it only opens up groups by like 1 moa, then maybe it doesn't even matter.

 

[Podmonkey]

For any practical rifle/carbine not equipped with a provision for full auto fire I think they make the most sense. Also "lightweight" and "pencil" profiles may not be the samething. For instance the Daniel Defense lightweight profile seems to more like a Gov't profile that simply continues its natural taper past the gas block instead of bulking up, it does not seem to be an especially thin pencil profile. There are several makers that seem to use this "heavier" lightweight profile.

 

[Airborneguy]

I have a lightweight barrel AR. It heats up VERY quickly. After one full magazine it is far too hot to touch and after a few mags, even with some time in between them, it's impossible to recase it without letting it sit for quite awhile.

Eventually I plan to change that barrel. I don't like it.

 

[dsdmmat]

But at how many rounds do you think the heat would become too detrimental on a semi auto, and how bad would it even get? If it only opens up groups by like 1 moa, then maybe it doesn't even matter.

According to the Army, Sustained rate of fire is 12 rounds per minute. That is the rate of fire a M16 can fire indefinitely without any damage to the weapon.

So in theory: If you fire faster than 12 rounds per minute you will encounter throat erosion and wandering of the barrel.

 

[hoodfu]

I've got a Bravo Company 14.5" lightweight and fluted barreled upper with their ultra lightweight magnesium rail. It's awesome and keeps the whole AR really light, particularly with a lightweight optic like an aimpoint T1. I use it for competitions where we shoot about 30 rounds per stage and I've never had accuracy issues with it even though we're rapidly firing those 30 rounds and then trying to hit 6" and 8" gongs at 120-140 yards. Highly recommended. The M4A1 SOCOM profile barrels that BCM also has are for people who might find themselves in a protracted firefight. You need to assess your needs.

 

[JamieZ]

Ive got lightweight barrrels on my AR's,,,you notice a difference in accuracy while shooting at the range at around the 4th or 5th consecutive bullet.

 

[UltraT]

Thanks for everyone's comments. Seems similar to other discussions I've read, some people like em and some don't think it's worth it. Maybe I'll just have to try it for myself.

 

[stuck in ny]

If it was good enough for Vietnam, its proably good enough for your SHTF scenario

 

[meketrefe]

One has to consider the caliber and case volume to bore ratio that also translates into
pressure, heat and how that heat is transmitted. The 223 is pretty aggressive.
Pencil barrels are a mistake no matter what caliber. Same as M4 tacticool style barrels.
In reality a barrel that is tapered after the tenon with same or slightly larger diameter of the standard
gas block a is not much heavier and potentially more resistant to heat and vibrations.
In testing it has been found that barrels even M4 do not fail in the gas block or gas tube
but show premature failure after the chamber and ahead of the gas block.
Also the standard M4 1/2"x28 threads are a mistake because over time muzzle swelling
shortens the potential accuracy life of the barrel.
This is not because of the pressures but because barrels are not stressed relieved after
cutting those small threads and there is no much material left anyway.
Burning a barrel is not something too rare if one is not careful.
Pencil and M4 barrel can go south pretty quickly and it doesn't mean they might fail
but bores might swell and do not recover and accuracy is never the same.
Some folks burn a barrel and might not even care because they do not care about accuracy
and will still be able to spray those dinner paper plates at 50 yards. IMO the AR can do a
lot more than that and one should expect pretty good accuracy with many commercial loads.
IMO for a potentially accuracy sporting rifle like the AR one should look for something
of more decent dimensions. There are other ways to save a few ounces in parts that
are not critical to the AR.

 

[Podmonkey]

Since this has been resurrected and has the attention of one of our resident tech gurus @meketrefe I would like to pick y'alls brains on something.
I, despite all the votes on the survey I did earlier (sorry) am going to build the group buy lower/upper into a 14.5" CQB carbine. I plan to put a Fostech Echo trigger in it. That means near full auto volumes of fire potentially. But I don't want a heavy barrel to absorb the heat. Does anyone think that Noveske's medium light extra thick chrome lined barrels would be sufficent to tolerate extended high volume fire?

 

[meketrefe]

Since this has been resurrected and has the attention of one of our resident tech gurus @meketrefe I would like to pick y'alls brains on something.
I, despite all the votes on the survey I did earlier (sorry) am going to build the group buy lower/upper into a 14.5" CQB carbine. I plan to put a Fostech Echo trigger in it. That means near full auto volumes of fire potentially. But I don't want a heavy barrel to absorb the heat. Does anyone think that Noveske's medium light extra thick chrome lined barrels would be sufficent to tolerate extended high volume fire?

tech guru? lol ... u give me too much credit. lol
One think is that I talk to a lot of folks some armorers from marines, swat and shooters too.
IMO anyone shooting call of duty style is going to put some serious stress on the barrel and potentially ruin the barrel
if one is not careful. Perhaps something purpose built will help to some degree.

I would consider a pretty good group but also a barrel that it doesn't have to be too heavy but
could be fluted with wide flutes like cooling fins yet careful with the minor diameter in the cuts.

Lilja produces one custom order like the recon made for the navy seals who want corrosion free (salt water)
and pretty accurate although like I said I would stay away form 1/2" threads.

http://riflebarrels.com/shop/drop-in-barrels/223-8-m4-copy-fluted/

Or perhaps one socom profile (not M4) and then add a cooling system but will have to either custom make
it or plan for the appropriate handguards.
JP makes a dissipator for that prupose....
JP - Thermal Dissipator™

Or perhaps invest on a piston that has a dissipation built in like the POF integral nut / dissipator.

Another one that might work really well is a custom profile from LW in their LW50 with wide fins.

Again, these are just some ideas to improve to some degree but if major heat build up is expected
then look at this very carefully including the materials and perhaps a piston where the H&K is hard to
beat.

It doesn't mean that will last longer or anything but in the short term abuse will be more reliable just
by redirecting the heat from critical components including the bolt.

Nobody should have to fire that fast not even in military situations and why they make
machine guns for suppressing fire/ support. but just saying...

 

[Podmonkey]

tech guru? lol ... u give me too much credit. lol
One think is that I talk to a lot of folks some armorers from marines, swat and shooters too.
IMO anyone shooting call of duty style is going to put some serious stress on the barrel and potentially ruin the barrel
if one is not careful. Perhaps something purpose built will help to some degree.

I would consider a pretty good group but also a barrel that it doesn't have to be too heavy but
could be fluted with wide flutes like cooling fins yet careful with the minor diameter in the cuts.

Lilja produces one custom order like the recon made for the navy seals who want corrosion free (salt water)
and pretty accurate although like I said I would stay away form 1/2" threads.

http://riflebarrels.com/shop/drop-in-barrels/223-8-m4-copy-fluted/

Or perhaps one socom profile (not M4) and then add a cooling system but will have to either custom make
it or plan for the appropriate handguards.
JP makes a dissipator for that prupose....
JP - Thermal Dissipator™

Or perhaps invest on a piston that has a dissipation built in like the POF integral nut / dissipator.

Another one that might work really well is a custom profile from LW in their LW50 with wide fins.

Again, these are just some ideas to improve to some degree but if major heat build up is expected
then look at this very carefully including the materials and perhaps a piston where the H&K is hard to
beat.

It doesn't mean that will last longer or anything but in the short term abuse will be more reliable just
by redirecting the heat from critical components including the bolt.

Nobody should have to fire that fast not even in military situations and why they make
machine guns for suppressing fire/ support. but just saying...

Hoo boy! <eyes water> And I thought the Noveske barrels were expensive! Here, this is more what I was thinking:
CHF Chrome Lined Lo-Pro Barrel
I was wondering if the CHF construction combined with the extra thick chrome lining would be sufficient reinforcement.
Also I wouldn't exactly call that a pencil profile either.

 

[meketrefe]

Noveske make very good barrels. Best polygonal along with Lothar Walter.
I don't think the chrome lining does antyhing in the presence of extreme heat because
it is more to protect the bore from erosion but if the actual barrel doesn't recover then the lining will not fix a burned barrel.
But those should do better than the tipical M4 tacticool or pencils. You might be able to add one of those dissipators.

 

[Podmonkey]

Noveske make very good barrels. Best polygonal along with Lothar Walter.
I don't think the chrome lining does antyhing in the presence of extreme heat because
it is more to protect the bore from erosion but if the actual barrel doesn't recover then the lining will not fix a burned barrel.
But those should do better than the tipical M4 tacticool or pencils. You might be able to add one of those dissipators.

Not under a CMR rail. I think I might be abandoning the FSB pinned to the barrel requirement in favor of the Centurion Arms CMR rail. Matched lower and upper with a 14.5 mid length Noveske lightweight barrel, 14" CMR rail and a Echo trigger. This build is gonna be friggin sweet!
As for the chrome lining, it does help protect against barrel erosion from excessive heat, to a degree I'm sure. I just need it to take the occasional mag dump in stride, but more importantly routine, very rapid double taps.

 

[meketrefe]

I agree it will help with erosion and bore life but will not help if the actual metal stock is damaged from heat.
With this I don't mean total failure but not recovering from heat induced stress.
I am not familiar with centurion arms. The main thing is that they are quality parts and you are happy with
the reliability and everything works for you.
It sounds like you know exactly what you are looking for.
I don't spend a lot of ammo as I shoot for accuracy but I can see the fun in a fast handling carbine.

 

[Podmonkey]

I agree it will help with erosion and bore life but will not help if the actual metal stock is damaged from heat.
With this I don't mean total failure but not recovering from heat induced stress.
I am not familiar with centurion arms. The main thing is that they are quality parts and you are happy with
the reliability and everything works for you.
It sounds like you know exactly what you are looking for.
I don't spend a lot of ammo as I shoot for accuracy but I can see the fun in a fast handling carbine.

When the forearm gets too hot to hang on to, I set the AR down and switch to something else for a while, therefore it will be nice to have two of em.
Centurion Arms is known for their quad rails which are some of the lightest around, the CMR rail is a lightweight, narrow diameter tube that M1913 rail sections can be attached to.
Given the barrel I now intend to put on it I wouldn't be surprised if this carbine turns out to be a great shooter either.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

Noveske make very good barrels. .

Noveske does not make barrels....or anything else for that matter.

They are just assemblers......yup.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

Pencil barrels heat up fast and cool down fast.

30 rapid rounds will heat most all barrels hotenouhh that you cant touch/hold the barrel.

My 16 inch 1:7 pencil sacr16 barrel worked perfectly. I have heated iit up with 1-2 (30 round) mags and them proceeded to hit 300-425 yard targets with no issues. (2-3 MOA sized targets). Hot or cold it gets the job done with no difference than my fatties.

 

[Podmonkey]

Noveske does not make barrels....or anything else for that matter.

They are just assemblers......yup.

We're not gonna do this again are we? Can you order Noveske barrels too? Because I'm gonna need you to pin the muzzle device on for me.

 

[meketrefe]

Noveske does not make barrels....or anything else for that matter.

They are just assemblers......yup.

Negative.

Noveske barrels are made by some of the people from pac-nor but they are made with Noveske tools, drills and reamers.
For some stainless steel they use pac-nor blanks for others they use a harder stainless alloy similar to Lothar's LW50 that
is as good as it gets for polygonal rifling and why the cost even more. The LW50 will also run in the 350-400 dollars for
premade runs. Similar quality standards we have for super match barrels in line with Krieger and Bartlein.

Anyway, some are not very different that one could get with a high end pac-nor but in some other calibers
the noveske is a better barrel made to their specs.
Some of the average pac-nor are great but not the same quality and finishing as noveske. They are also headspaced to match level with the bolts they sell.

As far as I know the stock for many is the same but the noveske are much better finished.
I think the only exception are some chrome lined that might be FN barrels that are hammer forged.
Have not experience with chrome lined because I always went with the high end match barrels in stainless steel.
Not the quality of the harder stainless but it is said they are not bad neither.

This is from close inspection and to the best of my knowledge unless things have changed lately. Again,
cannot speak for the chrome lined, only the SS match barrels. Maybe things have changed lately after john passed but they look like the same barrels, high end I mean.

See reply from Noveske himself in an interview with David Crane from defensereview a few years ago...

Noveske: Our stainless barrels are made partially in ourshop and partially in Pac-Nor’s shop. And, the relationship that I have with Pac-Nor…I used to work there, and now what’s goin’ on is I buy steel, I take it to Pac-Nor, when the guys clock out of Pac-Nor, they clock into our barrel production. They machine my blanks with our tooling, which is all made to our design, including the drills, reamers, button, so forth, so on. They stress-relieve to our recipe, and then they give the barrels back to us, and then we finish them all in our shop.

Full interview.

Noveske Rifleworks N4 Light Recce Carbine: John Noveske Interview, Part One | DefenseReview.com (DR): An online tactical technology and military defense technology magazine with particular focus on the latest and greatest tactical firearms news (tactical gun news), tactical gear news and tactical shooting news.