Orchard park farm stand shutdown because produce is not grown on site. Petition to get it reopened.

[livingston]

I can see where there has to be some type of limitation. If they expanded I can see a traffic problem . A friend of mine in the Buffalo area has a commercial stand ...For them to sell 500 dozen ears of corn on a Sunday was not unusual. .. Now how big this person was getting but there is a big difference having say 4 cars an hour against say 15 an hour on a residential street. trying to buy produce . Someone bitched and now town must answer

 

[drowhawk]

Zoning is theft. Essentially the government tells us what we are allowed to do on our land and where we are allowed to do it. Oh, and to boot you have to pay them rent for that land, and they decide what the rent is.

Government is the only business (yes, they are a business) that is allowed to not only force a product down your throat (whether you want it or not), but they tell you what you MUST pay for that product. AND if you don't pay or don't like the product, they just cease any means you have to provide for yourself and your family.

Sounds like the pursuit of happiness to me...

 

[Saltwater60]

Zoning is theft. Essentially the government tells us what we are allowed to do on our land and where we are allowed to do it. Oh, and to boot you have to pay them rent for that land, and they decide what the rent is.

Government is the only business (yes, they are a business) that is allowed to not only force a product down your throat (whether you want it or not), but they tell you what you MUST pay for that product. AND if you don't pay or don't like the product, they just cease any means you have to provide for yourself and your family.

Sounds like the pursuit of happiness to me...

Well said. Not sure if they only cease any means to provide for your family but they can and do confiscate your property for pennies on the dollar.
Say I didn’t pay my sewer bill from 3-4 years ago it’s $250 they can auction off my home that’s worth $275,000-300,000 to obtain that $250. Yeah it’s that bad.

 

[Cooolone]

I'm going to have to go with @BuffNiag on this one. I have a lot of sympathy for any small business who wants to make a go of it. I was also a member of my Town's Zoning Board of Appeals (ZBA) for years including several years as chairman. Matter of fact I was on it until I was elected judge last year.

You can disagree with zoning but then the burden is on you to approach your Town Board to get it changed. As mentioned in the article there's also a variance process. Simple variances, in my experience, generally take two months. First month's meeting you go to the ZBA, state your case, and if it's reasonable 9 times out 10 the board will grant it pending a state mandated public hearing the following month. The next month they hold a public hearing and listen to anything that the community has to say. Now, it doesn't matter if a 100 or a even a 1000 people come out in opposition to it the board can still grant the variance (or reverse scenario is true even if everyone in the community loves and supports it they can still deny it) but they need to have the public hearing.

If she was properly notified of the need to get a variance then I'm sorry but that's on her. You have to treat everyone the same. Most folks probably wouldn't have an issue with a farm stand but what if it's a pawn shop, a methadone clinic, or an adult book store? Or maybe it's something wholesome but it'll be located in a residential neighborhood and it's going to significantly increase traffic, noise, etc. I'd be upset by that if it was near where I lived and it went against zoning (although I may make an exception for gold-plated dildo manufacturers). I know in my Town the Building Department is very diligent about making sure situations like this get addressed as quickly as possible so people can get the variances or special use permits (those are issued by Planning Boards) that they need.

I can think of several examples from my Town or neighboring Towns where business owners felt like thumbing their noses at zoning just for spite. If they had played by the rules they could've gotten everything they wanted quickly, without much fuss, and for little in the way of permit fees. Instead they racked up fines and court costs and eventually had to stop their business completely. There are lots of people out there who think the rules don't apply to them.

Now I'm not saying that's the case here. It's entirely possible the Town (or someone in the Town) has a beef against them and is purposely giving them a hard time. It's concerning to me that they're not explicitly saying what part of the code she's violating. Our Code Enforcement Officer prints out a copy of the relevant section of code and highlights the passages that they need to adhere to. If they're not making it clear what she needs to do to make her business compliant then that's a serious problem and she has every right to be upset and perhaps even bring suit against the municipality.

Your argument fails on two points.
1. You have a vested interest in validating your opinion based upon your personal involvement in this activity. You cannot be impartial as you are entrenched in one viewpoint.
2. If using the same location for the same activity for 15 years, the town is dead wrong! Sorry! They had a duty a long time ago to correct the issue, and abandoning it until this supposed time of necessity is not ok! Let alone if the argument is also failed due to other businesses that comply can do the same activity, ie, sell produce not originating from it's property.

I have no dog in the fight, so it doesn't affect me. But in these times, local Gov't should be doing what it can to ensure its residents and businesses are operating as best as possible, not putting arbitrary burdens in place to overcome! 15 years... That's it! No other relevant discussion can take place while dismissing this fact.

That's all...

Have fun and carry on!

 

[Cooolone]

Well said. Not sure if they only cease any means to provide for your family but they can and do confiscate your property for pennies on the dollar.
Say I didn’t pay my sewer bill from 3-4 years ago it’s $250 they can auction off my home that’s worth $275,000-300,000 to obtain that $250. Yeah it’s that bad.

Not too sure they can seize and auction off your property so simply, let alone if you're living there. That said, they can place a lien on it to recover their $ should the transfer of property (sale) ever be attempted. And with the State courts so backlogged these days, foreclosures just aren't going to happen that fast, not that they did before anyways.

 

[holdover]

I always wanted to open a BLM and gold plated dildo store out of my home but you guys ruined my dreams.

 

[drowhawk]

Jokes on them. Until the eviction moratorium is lifted, I think we should withhold our taxes.

 

[Catskillkid]

Your argument fails on two points.
1. You have a vested interest in validating your opinion based upon your personal involvement in this activity. You cannot be impartial as you are entrenched in one viewpoint.
2. If using the same location for the same activity for 15 years, the town is dead wrong! Sorry! They had a duty a long time ago to correct the issue, and abandoning it until this supposed time of necessity is not ok! Let alone if the argument is also failed due to other businesses that comply can do the same activity, ie, sell produce not originating from it's property.

I have no dog in the fight, so it doesn't affect me. But in these times, local Gov't should be doing what it can to ensure its residents and businesses are operating as best as possible, not putting arbitrary burdens in place to overcome! 15 years... That's it! No other relevant discussion can take place while dismissing this fact.

That's all...

Have fun and carry on!

Yeah, no I don't think so.

1: I have no vested interest in this case put forth here or any other. Not sure how you come to that conclusion. I was a volunteer on the ZBA and never once got a check, kick-back, etc. for the work that I did (currently not on the board anymore). I could make the argument that you cannot be impartial because you are outside "the system." What it boils down to is that on any host of issues people fall more of less on one side of the fence or the other. Clearly you and I have a difference of opinion on the matter and I see nothing wrong with that. I take issue with you thinking that I'm someone blinded by my work and don't see the other side. I do see it and acknowledge valid points I just happen to take a different stance than you and probably most others on this thread.

2. If you read my last paragraph in my post you'd see that I acknowledge that I don't know the details of this case and it's entirely possible someone in the Town has a a hard-on for this business and wants to give them grief. You'll see that I am very concerned that the CEO is not giving them explicitly the part of the Town Code that they're violating. That is a HUGE red flag for me. If a business is violating Code or Zoning it is on the municipality to tell them how they are out of compliance and how to fix it. If they're not, then they're no better than any of the other petty tyrants that we have to deal with and should be sued into oblivion.

I'm probably in the minority here and I'm fine with that but I don't see Zoning, if it is reasonable and fairly applied, to be a bad thing. I think it can help with community development and allows for local control over how a community grows and what of growth occurs. I don't want to see government trash a small business over petty reasons but I also don't want to see the Federal government outside developers dictate what type of growth occurs in a location and zoning helps with that. Granted, this last point is a bigger picture item and not related to this particular case but it's worth thinking about.

 

[soylentBlue]

One problem with zoning is that in small towns, the zoning board is made up of a small group of friends. If they like you, you can get a variance for whatever you want. If they don't like you, your variance is refused.

 

[Jmac00]

I can see where there has to be some type of limitation. If they expanded I can see a traffic problem . A friend of mine in the Buffalo area has a commercial stand ...For them to sell 500 dozen ears of corn on a Sunday was not unusual. .. Now how big this person was getting but there is a big difference having say 4 cars an hour against say 15 an hour on a residential street. trying to buy produce . Someone bitched and now town must answer

I would agree with you if we were talking about a business that had been in place for a year or even two years. but we are talking about a well established business, of 15+ years. Even if they were getting 'bigger' does that justify the government coming in and shutting them down, completely

Instead, why wouldn't the town come in and say "hey, we need to have a conversation about your business, we need to come to an agreement, lets talk and see what we can do to benefit everyone" ~~~~OH HELL NO! what the town is doing is coming in, stomping all over everything and everybody and demanding the farm stop doing business in NY, there by hurting everyone involved AND THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

so essentially the town and state are saying, we don't need or want your tax dollars, the state is here to take care of you. Comply, or die

 

[Jmac00]

One problem with zoning is that in small towns, the zoning board is made up of a small group of friends. If they like you, you can get a variance for whatever you want. If they don't like you, your variance is refused.

exactly right!!! it really has nothing to do with 'whatever' it is that you want. n small towns, this comes down to personality and power, and who has it.

 

[Jmac00]

Here is a classic example of what a little town board will do, this happened to my dentist (who we trade services for, except for large things like "homes" and major dental surgery) we will call him Dr, J and about a dozen of his neighbors.

Dr J has two properties on Conesus Lake, He decided to "rebuild" one property, he essentially bulldozed most of the house except 50% of the original foundation, which puts it under a remodeling permit. Because the remodel permit is substantially cheaper than a full blown building permit and you can avoid certain building codes, which simply add exorbitant cost to the build. at this time, there were about a dozen such builds going on around the lake, I know because the Project manager at the time was running three or four of them. anyway, I showed up on the job site when the framer was about 2/3rd of the way into roofing the home, now, its the middle of January, its cold, and its snowing (flurries). I unload my truck to start cutting the floors and walls for the heat runs and cold air returns, when this old guy walks up to me and says "go home, your not working here today" Being the douche bag I am, I **POLITELY**say, ( I really did say this) "go fuckyourself, I don't take orders from you or anyone else other than the Project manager and/or Home owner" Mr Old Guy says, "Im the town attorney and I will have you arrested if you don't leave right now" AGAIN: me being the douche bag I am, I **politely** said, "really? what part of fuck off didn't you understand" ( I go back to getting my tools out) Mr Old Guy-Town attorney says "Im calling the sheriff and you will be arrested for trespassing" AGAIN I **POLITELY** say "did you really pass the bar, or are you impersonating a attorney. the only one here thats going to be arrested for trespassing is you, I have permission to be on this property, I sincerely doubt that you do, so PLEASE, PLEASE call the cops"

At this point, Mr Old guy-town attorney then turns to the house and yells "everyone go home, this project has the wrong permits and you must stop work until the proper permits are acquired", Now the project manager and the framer walk over to me and my truck and Mr Old-guy-Town attorney, and a 'heated' conversation ensues. Eventually, we all left the project, the PM called Dr J to tell him of the delay due to some confusion over permits?

It turns out Mr Old-guy Town attorney went completely around the lake that day and shut down every single project on the lake, now Dr J and his neighbors make some serious money, as you can imagine.

to shorten this little tale of woe, what happened was the town 'surrendered' after all these rich guys brought in their big guns lawyers and threated to sue the town into oblivion, the town made all these people re-purchase the exact same permits they already had, to avoid what was going to be a very long and very expensive legal battle for everyone, over nothing.

Zoning boards are Nazi criminals, they put a dozen work crews, out of work for three weeks while they dicked around trying to extort money from the good ( and rich) citizens of Conesus. In this case, it turned into a "tie", the town didn't get what they wanted, but home owners didn't have to pay a shit ton of money for bullshit permits either, and of course the lawyer all went home rich, fat and happy.

I have a few more "zoning and Building inspector tails, but they are just as long as this one. Personally, I think building inspectors are far worse than the zoning people.

 

[spat]

Yeah, no I don't think so.

1: I have no vested interest in this case put forth here or any other. Not sure how you come to that conclusion. I was a volunteer on the ZBA and never once got a check, kick-back, etc. for the work that I did (currently not on the board anymore). I could make the argument that you cannot be impartial because you are outside "the system." What it boils down to is that on any host of issues people fall more of less on one side of the fence or the other. Clearly you and I have a difference of opinion on the matter and I see nothing wrong with that. I take issue with you thinking that I'm someone blinded by my work and don't see the other side. I do see it and acknowledge valid points I just happen to take a different stance than you and probably most others on this thread.

2. If you read my last paragraph in my post you'd see that I acknowledge that I don't know the details of this case and it's entirely possible someone in the Town has a a hard-on for this business and wants to give them grief. You'll see that I am very concerned that the CEO is not giving them explicitly the part of the Town Code that they're violating. That is a HUGE red flag for me. If a business is violating Code or Zoning it is on the municipality to tell them how they are out of compliance and how to fix it. If they're not, then they're no better than any of the other petty tyrants that we have to deal with and should be sued into oblivion.

I'm probably in the minority here and I'm fine with that but I don't see Zoning, if it is reasonable and fairly applied, to be a bad thing. I think it can help with community development and allows for local control over how a community grows and what of growth occurs. I don't want to see government trash a small business over petty reasons but I also don't want to see the Federal government outside developers dictate what type of growth occurs in a location and zoning helps with that. Granted, this last point is a bigger picture item and not related to this particular case but it's worth thinking about.

The problem is that "if it's reasonable and fairly adopted" cannot be trusted.

Even if the current administration can be trusted to do that, the future cannot.

It's just like no-knock raids. It *will* be abused, government cannot be trusted with that power.

 

[Saltwater60]

Not too sure they can seize and auction off your property so simply, let alone if you're living there. That said, they can place a lien on it to recover their $ should the transfer of property (sale) ever be attempted. And with the State courts so backlogged these days, foreclosures just aren't going to happen that fast, not that they did before anyways.

It takes time but they sure can seize and sell your home to get the minuscule amount you owe. They have to give you the proceeds but for a few hundred dollars they can seize and sell your home or other property. Never said it is a simple process but it can certainly be done and has been done.
Of course they give you plenty of opportunities to pay but there are mistakes.
Seizures