PA Supreme Court: Unconstitutional to ‘Stop-and-Frisk’ For Firearms

[Cavalier Knight]

HARRISBURG, PA –-(Ammoland.com)- Today, the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court issued a significant 53-page majority opinion in the criminal appeal of Commonwealth v. Hicks. Firearms Policy Coalition (FPC) and Firearms Policy Foundation (FPF) filed an important coalition amicus brief cited by the Court supporting Hicks in December of 2017, alongside Firearms Owners Against Crime (FOAC) and seven Members of Pennsylvania's General Assembly. The Court’s decision, concurring opinions, and the FPC/FPF amicus brief can be viewed at www.firearmspolicy.org/legal.

At issue was whether someone’s carrying of a firearm could be used as reasonable suspicion of criminal conduct, and thus justification for police to conduct a “stop-and-frisk” of the gun owner. The court ruled in Hicks that such searches and seizures, in the absence of other evidence are completely unlawful.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/05/pa-...#axzz5pHO4VUla

 

[BDinPutnam]

The ACLU could not be reached for comment.

 

[Acer-m14]

At issue was whether someone’s carrying of a firearm could be used as reasonable suspicion of criminal conduct, and thus justification for police to conduct a “stop-and-frisk” of the gun owner. The court ruled in Hicks that such searches and seizures, in the absence of other evidence are completely unlawful.

so what is 911 dispatch going to do with a call now ?? .. i just seen a guy/girl walking down the sidewalk/street with a gun ..

 

[MadScientist]

so what is 911 dispatch going to do with a call now ?? .. i just seen a guy/girl walking down the sidewalk/street with a gun ..

Not sure if serious but there’s big difference between openly carrying a firearm and brandishing one

 

[Acer-m14]

Not sure if serious but there’s big difference between openly carrying a firearm and brandishing one

just go on what the caller said in my post . ... stop adding to it .. its on the (911 side now) .

are they going to asked more questions or just i'll have car heading that way now . hummmm ..

 

[Shadow2]

They can still send a car to ask questions, asking questions is not illegal. They can point a gun at you and ask you to hand over your gun, you don't have to comply but you will be threatened with death if you don't. You can't sue for rights violations because you'll be dead. I applaud the ruling it needs to be appealed so it can be applied to the entire country. Stop and frisk is a load of BS that was pushed to convict a black man in OHIO.

so what is 911 dispatch going to do with a call now ?? .. i just seen a guy/girl walking down the sidewalk/street with a gun ..

 

[Shadow2]

WOW do you know how many people I've argued these points with, gun owners, many right her on this forum. This is the point of open carry protesters. Its not a dam right if you have to submit to government to prove you have the right to do it, at that point its a privilege.

"The Court agreed, noting “that the government may not target and seize specific individuals without any particular suspicion of wrongdoing, then force them to prove that they are not committing crimes.”

“the Court, in dismissing the Commonwealth’s position, declared that to permit investigative detention solely to determine whether someone is properly licensed is ‘ultimately untenable, because it would allow a manifestly unacceptable range of ordinary activity to, by itself, justify Terry stops.’”

 

[Acer-m14]

They can still send a car to ask questions

thats the point i was trying to get from MadScientist ... the call to 911 was .. i seen a guy walking with a gun .. 911 should be like then .. ok thats legal .. was he pointing it some one .. no .. just walking .. no car needed ..

 

[Mr. terzmo]

now a days, On a bit different subject, I cringe if asked by a policeman if I am carrying a weapon. I'm uneasy on what the policeman will do next. AND....it only takes one for things to go poorly for all the replies that it's happened to them and nothing happened bad.

 

[Acer-m14]

I cringe if asked by a policeman if I am carrying a weapon

officer .. is my car / truck a weapon ..

 

[Defilade]

The Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights that prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures. It requires "reasonable" governmental searches and seizures to be conducted only upon issuance of a warrant, judicially sanctioned by probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.

 

[Truebeliever]

The Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights that prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures. It requires "reasonable" governmental searches and seizures to be conducted only upon issuance of a warrant, judicially sanctioned by probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.

I think you aren’t reading the constitution correctly. It does prohibit unreasonable searches and seizures . It does require probable cause for a search warrant but it does not require a warrant for all searches and seizures .

A cop does not need a warrant from a judge before they can make an arrest ( a seizure) or search the prisoner.

 

[Defilade]

I think you aren’t reading the constitution correctly. It does prohibit unreasonable searches and seizures . It does require probable cause for a search warrant but it does not require a warrant for all searches and seizures .

A cop does not need a warrant from a judge before they can make an arrest ( a seizure) or search the prisoner.

Huh? The Bill of Rights: Amendments 1-10 to the U.S. Constitution Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. ⋆ The Constitution • Constitution.com

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

[Robin]

All our God given rights as outlined by the Bill of Rights are under assault by the raving progressive socialists.
robin

 

[Podmonkey]

Not sure if serious but there’s big difference between openly carrying a firearm and brandishing one

Legally yes. PA is weird, depending where you are open carrying people may not bat an eye or you might have the National Guard called out on you. I have open carried a handful of times, no one said anything.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

Legally yes. PA is weird, depending where you are open carrying people may not bat an eye or you might have the National Guard called out on you. I have open carried a handful of times, no one said anything.

Me too. Just like @Podmonkey I have open carried in PA on multiple occasions, and never had anyone blink an eye as far as I can tell. But that was in mostly rural western PA.

Most people can easily determine the difference between open carry and brandishing. If it’s holstered, it’s open carried. If you are carrying it around in your hand (and not standing out in the middle of the woods, obviously either hunting or target shooting), then most people are going to consider that brandishing,- regardless of whether or not you are agitated, animated, and yelling at someone.

As for open carrying in the city, well,... some people seem to get easily freaked out about that. Hopefully over time, people open carrying will become a non issue, and no different than carrying a cell phone on their hip. Still going to be an issue in the city for a while.

There was just a case in an Amherst, NY doctor’s office a month or so ago. A old guy got up to go to the bathroom; a woman saw his gun when his shirt lifted as he got up. She called 911, and GREATLY overstated things. Basically said he was threatening everyone in the office. Undercover cops came in and grabbed him and immediately threw his ass down on ceramic tile floor face first. They apologized when he produced his permit, but I believe he is suing for injuries IIRC.

One other thought on “open carrying”. I spent some time with Buffalo cops. They told me that when they notice someone carrying (printing but not actually open carrying), their rule of thumb is that if the person has it in a holster, he is legally carrying. And when they just have it stuffed in their waistband, that it is virtually 100% of time stolen. Just an observation.

 

[Podmonkey]

Me too. Just like @Podmonkey I have open carried in PA on multiple occasions, and never had anyone blink an eye as far as I can tell. But that was in mostly rural western PA.

Most people can easily determine the difference between open carry and brandishing. If it’s holstered, it’s open carried. If you are carrying it around in your hand (and not standing out in the middle of the woods, obviously either hunting or target shooting), then most people are going to consider that brandishing,- regardless of whether or not you are agitated, animated, and yelling at someone.

As for open carrying in the city, well,... some people seem to get easily freaked out about that. Hopefully over time, people open carrying will become a non issue, and no different than carrying a cell phone on their hip. Still going to be an issue in the city for a while.

There was just a case in an Amherst, NY doctor’s office a month or so ago. A old guy got up to go to the bathroom; a woman saw his gun when his shirt lifted as he got up. She called 911, and GREATLY overstated things. Basically said he was threatening everyone in the office. Undercover cops came in and grabbed him and immediately threw his ass down on ceramic tile floor face first. They apologized when he produced his permit, but I believe he is suing for injuries IIRC.

One other thought on “open carrying”. I spent some time with Buffalo cops. They told me that when they notice someone carrying (printing but not actually open carrying), their rule of thumb is that if the person has it in a holster, he is legally carrying. And when they just have it stuffed in their waistband, that it is virtually 100% of time stolen. Just an observation.

The handful of times I have open carried Inwas on the way to the range. Usually stopped at a Sheetz for some fuel, water and maybe range snacks. Went right into the store and wandered around shopping. Nobody said shit. I once even carried an unloaded (no mags, no ammo on person) in my sneaky backpack bag out and about once just to see if it drew any attention. It did not. PA is actually one of the least restrictive states when it comes to firearms. Since it was decided that Sheriff signoff for NFA items was no longer necessary. No permit is needed for open carry, a License to Carry Firearms is quite simple to obtain PA is a Stand Your Ground State and also has Castle Doctrine in place. About the only main limitation is an inability to carry a loaded long gun in your vehicle. Which is more about concerns of poaching than anything else and violation of this is apparently a low level misdemeanor. This doesn't even apply to SBRs or SBSs or "pistols" equipped with "braces" as they are simply considered as any other pistol and the carriage of such locked cocked and ready to rock in your vehicle is covered under your LTCF. The preemption clause against the cities passing laws over and above state law is super nice and is a wonderful fuck you! to the liberal urbanites. Also, apparently there is a need to transfer handguns via FFL or Sheriff and that sucks. Most locals seem cagey to sell even long guns outside an FFL as well. Honestly in PA finding an FFL isn't too terribly difficult.
Oh, carry in premises that serve alchohol and state parks/land ect are gtg also.
Trying tonexplainto a PA native NY's absurd and byzantine gun laws will draw the most perplexed look and finally a disgusted shake of the head.
Downsides? If you drive an 18 wheeler PA sucks. Absolutely sucks, just about the biggest PITA of all the states, excepting major metro areas, to get through.

 

[Doc8404]

Me too. Just like @Podmonkey I have open carried in PA on multiple occasions, and never had anyone blink an eye as far as I can tell. But that was in mostly rural western PA.

Most people can easily determine the difference between open carry and brandishing. If it’s holstered, it’s open carried. If you are carrying it around in your hand (and not standing out in the middle of the woods, obviously either hunting or target shooting), then most people are going to consider that brandishing,- regardless of whether or not you are agitated, animated, and yelling at someone.

As for open carrying in the city, well,... some people seem to get easily freaked out about that. Hopefully over time, people open carrying will become a non issue, and no different than carrying a cell phone on their hip. Still going to be an issue in the city for a while.

There was just a case in an Amherst, NY doctor’s office a month or so ago. A old guy got up to go to the bathroom; a woman saw his gun when his shirt lifted as he got up. She called 911, and GREATLY overstated things. Basically said he was threatening everyone in the office. Undercover cops came in and grabbed him and immediately threw his ass down on ceramic tile floor face first. They apologized when he produced his permit, but I believe he is suing for injuries IIRC.

One other thought on “open carrying”. I spent some time with Buffalo cops. They told me that when they notice someone carrying (printing but not actually open carrying), their rule of thumb is that if the person has it in a holster, he is legally carrying. And when they just have it stuffed in their waistband, that it is virtually 100% of time stolen. Just an observation.

Hope he is suing the bitch that made the call.