Pistol Cartridge Selection for Big Game

[Upstate43]

A friend and I are thinking about getting into tracking wounded game (deer and bear) in NY.

We've talked to a few trackers, and they all have recommended that we get a powerful handgun of some sort. Shotguns and rifles can be used for dispatching the animal in some areas, but in others they might not be allowed. As well, a handgun will be easier to carry around in the thick bushy vegetation that wounded deer and bear like to go into.

We've narrowed our options down to 3 choices:

1) 10mm. It's good, heavy round with decent energy (ranging from 650ft-lb-750ft-lb). There are some half decent platforms available on the market, despite the cartridge never gaining much popularity compared to others. The biggest issue I've seen is finding decent hunting cartridges. The traditional hollow points and rapid expansion rounds are not ideal for our uses. Hard cast bullets or designs focused on deep penetration are what we need (especially for black bear).

2) .357 magnum. It's also a good, heavy, and fast round. The normal cartridges offer energies similar to 10mm, but the heavier, hunting-oriented cartridges offer a bit more energy. Not all of the bullets are as heavy as the 10mm, but they offer somewhat better sectional density. Plenty of good platforms to choose from (in DA/SA revovler). It does seem to have a bit of a track record in handling animals.

3) .44 magnum. Better than the other two in most regards. Much heavier round developing much higher terminal energy. Better sectional density. A very proven track record of taking big game, to include brown bear. Plenty of hunting cartridges and platforms (DA/SA revolvers) to choose from. Biggest issues: the platform itself will be heavier than the other two; the recoil will be significant; and the rounds will be more expensive.

Anyone here have experience using one or all of these rounds in a hunting context?

My initial preference is for the 10mm or .357. The .44 seems like an overkill for my purposes (which I suppose could be viewed as an advantage of sorts). If I were tracking wounded game in the Alaskan wilderness, I could see its merit. For recovering deer and the infrequent black bear in NY. I don't think I need that type of cartridge.

 

[Criticalt]

I have a 10mm and 357.
Id prefer 10mm for what you describe.
Cant go wrong with a 44 mag.
Nothing walking away from any of the 3 if you place your shots.
Id still prefer a 12 gauge.

 

[Upstate43]

A 12 gauge, or .30 caliber hunting rifle, is always an option I'll have ready. Based on the initial sign and information gained from the hunter who took the shot, I'll have to make an educated guess on which firearm will be suitable for a particular recovery.

If I deem that the animal is severely wounded, I'll opt for a pistol because it keeps the weight down and allows to me stay focused on the track and the dog.

Agree on the shot placement comment. And I know I can't "go wrong" with a .44 mag. But if I can accomplish the task with a cheaper, lighter-recoil cartridge that would suit me just fine.

 

[Podmonkey]

10mm and .357 Mag are are right alongside each other in terms of energy. I have to imagine there is a larger selection of hunting style bullets for the .357 though. On the other hand 10mm can be had in a lightweight, easily carried Glock package. At such short range I don't think the power of the .44 mag is necessary for your stated purpose. Not for deer and black bear anyway.

 

[Upstate43]

For the .357, I've found some light-weight (relatively speaking) revolver platforms, to the tune of 35oz or so. I'm familiar with the Glock offerings. Though perhaps a little bit lighter, I am pretty set on having a DA/SA (either semi-auto or revolver) for walking around in the woods. As well, a little bit of heft is okay as it should help tame the heavier recoil associated with the hunting cartridges I'll be using.

 

[Podmonkey]

I was just thinking that for stalking around in the woulds having something as light as possible would be nice. There are any number of 1911s in 10mm and even one in .357, all have substantial heft. The is also the SIG P220 in 10mm which is also quite hefty. I myself have been looking into a heavy caliber 1911, though for range amusement.

 

[Marine Cpl]

10mm. Capacity and follow up shots in an auto with a recoil spring trumps a revolver each and every time.

 

[Upstate43]

I was just thinking that for stalking around in the woulds having something as light as possible would be nice. There are any number of 1911s in 10mm and even one in .357, all have substantial heft. The is also the SIG P220 in 10mm which is also quite hefty. I myself have been looking into a heavy caliber 1911, though for range amusement.

I'll give a look at those other 10mm platforms. I'm not as familiar with those options as I am with the .357 revolvers. My biggest concern with the 10mm is having available hunting cartridges. Is there a lot of market support for that?

As for weight/heft, it's a balancing act. I'm obviously weight conscious - otherwise I wouldn't even bother with a pistol and just continue to carry a shotgun or rifle. But on the flip-side, I do expect these heavier hunting cartridges to offer a bit more kick than some of the target and self-defense loads....a moderately heavy frame should help to tame that recoil and facilitate follow-up shots, if needed.

 

[Podmonkey]

I'll give a look at those other 10mm platforms. I'm not as familiar with those options as I am with the .357 revolvers. My biggest concern with the 10mm is having available hunting cartridges. Is there a lot of market support for that?

As for weight/heft, it's a balancing act. I'm obviously weight conscious - otherwise I wouldn't even bother with a pistol and just continue to carry a shotgun or rifle. But on the flip-side, I do expect these heavier hunting cartridges to offer a bit more kick than some of the target and self-defense loads....a moderately heavy frame should help to tame that recoil and facilitate follow-up shots, if needed.

Companies like Buffalo Bore and Double Tap offer very hot loads in 10mm using JSP bullets. There are of course many others I'm sure.
I owned a Glock 20 for a short while. I found it to be a cumbersome brick in the hand but it managed the recoil of the 10mm very well, I didn't find 20 to be at all unpleasant in that regard. I didn't enjoy the the grip feel is all.
The Coonan 1911 in .357 I was referencing is by all accounts a high quality and reliable piece but I think its more of a novelty. I handled one recently actually. It was impossible for me to get to the magazine release with out drastically shifting my grip and even then I found it best to hot the release with the thumb of my support hand. Fantastically beautiful gun though.

 

[Carlos Hathcock]

Go to the top and you'll never be left short.

 

[turbobike]

Auto 10mm....Revolver a 460 S&W. you can shoot powder-puff 45 Colt load, hot 45 Colt, 454 Casull, and bomber 460 loads. Very versatile.

 

[Jaywmustang]

My first pistol was a ruger super red hawk 44 mag and I couldnt hit anything with it lol. Wasn’t the gun or caliber issue, it was my inexperience at the time. I picked up a Glock g40 10mm a month or so ago and love it. It is a joy to shoot, my wife has no problem with it. I picked it up primarily for hunting whitetail. Underwood ammo makes hunting ammo for the 10mm.

 

[Upstate43]

My first pistol was a ruger super red hawk 44 mag and I could hit anything with it lol. Wasn’t the gun or caliber issue, it was my inexperience at the time. I picked up a Glock g40 10mm a month or so ago and love it. It is a joy to shoot, my wife has no problem with it. I picked it up primarily for hunting whitetail. Underwood ammo makes hunting ammo for the 10mm.

What kind of penetration does that 10mm Underwood have on whitetail?

 

[Jaywmustang]

What kind of penetration does that 10mm Underwood have on whitetail?

I just got it so I don’t know yet. There are some good vids and reviews online for the Underwood ammo

 

[Marine Cpl]

Here is an article where an Alaskan Guide killed a grizzly with a 9mm.

Alaska Outfitter Defends Fishermen from Raging Grizzly with 9mm Pistol


And here is an actual video of another one killed with a 9mm.

A 10mm has more speed and momentum than a 9mm. I'm sure the 10mm would do just fine against whitetails. Many myths are spread around about what a caliber can't do what but real life says different.

 

[Acer-m14]

TC in .270 win for the win if your a really good shot .. all you need a 22lr .. bear goes 100 yrds ..

 

[Acer-m14]

true store .. dad on way to work .. see a car deer accident .. pulls over .. its a co-worker .. deer still kicking .. dad grabs the 22 pistol .. pew in ear ..
I''ll let them know at work you'll be late ..
stop being a snowflake and get up close and shoot it ..

I was like 10 or 12 .. mom hit a deer .. still alive .. off duty LEO stops .. pew pew pew pew pew pew pew .. reload pew pew pew .. deer dead finally ..
and antler shot off too LOL ..

if you can't hit it .. it does not matter what caliber you have LOL ..

 

[Greywolf224]

My daily carry which is a .40 is what I have always carried while deer hunting. Dispensed a number of deer that were not clean one shot kills via a long gun.
Truth be told the .40 was overkill.

Hogs and heifers are put down with a simple .22 between the eyes. Hell doesn't anyone watch "The Last Frontier"

 

[ECU Pirates]

If you already have something in .45acp covert it to 460 Rowland. For light weight the Glock 30 or m&p would be ideal and you have substantially more punch than a 10mm or a .357 mag. I’m looking into converting a 1911 for hunting.

 

[Criticalt]

Like I already mentioned, all 3 options are very capable of doing the job descibed, even from a distance.
Now go hold them and see which you prefer.
Any pistol caliber will kill a bear, you just need a gun you are proficient with.

 

[Upstate43]

Like I already mentioned, all 3 options are very capable of doing the job descibed, even from a distance.
Now go hold them and see which you prefer.
Any pistol caliber will kill a bear, you just need a gun you are proficient with.

Disagree on that last part.

Any pistol cartridge has the potential to kill a bear. But some are much better suited for such a task than others.

Here is an article where an Alaskan Guide killed a grizzly with a 9mm.

I too have heard the story of the Alaskan guide who took down a grizzly with 9mm. I know that it can be done; that doesn't mean it should be done. You're taking a lot more risk with a smaller cartridge like that, which carries less energy compared to the 3 mentioned above. 9mm, and the other usual considerations for everyday carry (.40s&w and .45 acp) are out of the question for my purposes. I need a bit more certainty from whatever handgun I'm carrying; those lighter cartridges just don't provide that.

The deer and bear trackers I've talked all seem to lean towards .357 magnum or heavier magnums (and revolver platforms). I haven't heard of anyone carrying 10mm, though I'm sure with the appropriate ammo it will offer similar performance to that of .357 mag.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Disagree on that last part.

Any pistol cartridge has the potential to kill a bear. But some are much better suited for such a task than others.



I too have heard the story of the Alaskan guide who took down a grizzly with 9mm. I know that it can be done; that doesn't mean it should be done. You're taking a lot more risk with a smaller cartridge like that, which carries less energy compared to the 3 mentioned above. 9mm, and the other usual considerations for everyday carry (.40s&w and .45 acp) are out of the question for my purposes. I need a bit more certainty from whatever handgun I'm carrying; those lighter cartridges just don't provide that.

The deer and bear trackers I've talked all seem to lean towards .357 magnum or heavier magnums (and revolver platforms). I haven't heard of anyone carrying 10mm, though I'm sure with the appropriate ammo it will offer similar performance to that of .357 mag.

You do realize that 10mm has as much and sometimes more weight and velocity with a larger diameter than a .357 Magnum.

Also, energy doesn't kill animals. Penetration does. That's why that particular non expanding heavy, hard cast 9mm load worked for that Alaskan Guide. That particular load is better than a .357 Magnum or higher hollow point defensive load that doesn't penetrate enough.

Caliber isn't everything. If the wrong ammo is used in the right caliber, it is worse than the right ammo in the wrong caliber.

 

[Upstate43]

You do realize that 10mm has as much and sometimes more weight and velocity with a larger diameter than a .357 Magnum.

10mm does offer somewhat heavier bullets, but the heaviest hunting-oriented .357 loads (Buffalo Bore is one example) come with faster velocities and higher energies than the comparable 10mm loads. .357 mag also has better sectional density relative to 10mm.

Also, energy doesn't kill animals. Penetration does. That's why that particular non expanding heavy, hard cast 9mm load worked for that Alaskan Guide. That particular load is better than a .357 Magnum or higher hollow point defensive load that doesn't penetrate enough.

And penetration is heavily dependent on a few different factors (to include sectional density, bullet construction and energy).

The hardcast 9mm load worked in that particular scenario. A lot of trackers and hunters would argue that hardcast .357 mag loads (or heavier magnum cartridges) work even better in a wider range of scenarios. I agree that proper load selection is important, and thankfully .357 mag and the other magnum's have plenty of hunting options to choose from.

Bare in mind too that guide was carrying his 9mm for self-defense, in the off chance that he had an encounter with an unfriendly animal. People who guide, hunt and track with the intent of finding and dispatching large-bodied, and sometimes dangerous, animals by-and-large don't carry 9mm....it's just not the optimal cartridge for such uses.

 

[Marine Cpl]

A .357 Magnum hard cast has the same killing power as a 9mm hard cast of the same diameter assuming they both have enough to penetrate to vitals in the same animal.

Obviously the .357 will be better on bear since some bear are bigger than others but on an animal like a deer, the wound would be identical and both would have complete pass through.

 

[Marine Cpl]

And after a while depending on the animal the extra numbers don't make a difference. Do you want a bullet that's a few grains heavier but only have 5 shots or one that's a few grains lighter with 11 shots and less recoil because of a recoil spring?

Buffalo bore actually has heavier bullets at 220 grains for the 10mm.

 

[cgrutt]

Never really thought about tracking as a business opportunity within NYS but just last Fall I met one coming out of my backyard with his dog. Tracking a deer shot somewhere nearby. Keep in mind you may not be the only one "tracking" a wounded animal... the deer that this gentleman was tracking was apparently found but a pack of coyotes had gotten to it first. Also have a friend who shot a black bear on his property from a tree stand a few years ago. He remained in the tree stand because he could hear the continued aggressiveness of the bear and thought he had only wounded it. He stayed in the tree stand until after dark and went back to find bear following morning. Apparently the "aggressive" bear that my friend was hearing was another black bear that was tearing the wounded/dead bear that my friend shot apart. He said the only thing left on the bear was the backstraps when he found it next day. Even the hide was ripped to shreads. Good luck with the business and stay safe! I'd probably opt for the 44 Mag, LOL...

 

[Upstate43]

A .357 Magnum hard cast has the same killing power as a 9mm hard cast of the same diameter assuming they both have enough to penetrate to vitals in the same animal.

Obviously the .357 will be better on bear since some bear are bigger than others but on an animal like a deer, the wound would be identical and both would have complete pass through.

I'm not sure what you're basing that on. In purely ballistic terms, .357 mag hardcast bullets do offer much better performance than comparable 9mm loads.
The diameter of the bullet is only one factor, among many, to consider when estimating its lethality.

Buffalo bore actually has heavier bullets at 220 grains for the 10mm.

I know that 10mm loads offer slightly heavier bullets. .357 loads provide higher energy #'s and, on average, have higher sectional densities. A higher bullet mass doesn't necessarily correlate to a higher energy and better penetration capabilities, as in the case of comparing .357 mag buffalo bore to 10mm buffalo bore. However, I'm sure the Buffalo Bore rounds for either cartridge will provide similar results.

Never really thought about tracking as a business opportunity within NYS

Unless you're a licensed guide (which I'm not), you're not allowed to take any money for your tracking efforts in NYS. This is purely a volunteer effort on my part.

 

[cgrutt]

Unless you're a licensed guide (which I'm not), you're not allowed to take any money for your tracking efforts in NYS. This is purely a volunteer effort on my part.

Just meant I never really considered that before until I met a tracker in by own backyard last fall. Have no idea if he was licensed or just doing it voluntarily. Good luck!

 

[Marine Cpl]

Again. Bullet energy doesn't do anything. The bullet goes through and penetrates a vital and makes a complete pass through or it doesn't.

Pistol bullets are just too small and too slow for energy to come into play.

 

[71velle]

A friend and I are thinking about getting into tracking wounded game (deer and bear) in NY.





1) 10mm. It's good, heavy round with decent energy (ranging from 650ft-lb-750ft-lb). There are some half decent platforms available on the market, despite the cartridge never gaining much popularity compared to others.

I think the half decent platforms thought is bad. Glock has the G20 and G40. Plenty of 1911s and some long slides as well. Sig has the P220 in both single and in SA/DA options. Ruger has a revolver. So any platform you could ask for is represented with quality options. The other calibers are limited in their platforms.