Pistol-grip-only shotguns are now banned Others in New York

[spat]

If you want to believe a court will find that a pistol grip only shotgun is "intended to be fired from the shoulder" then there's no arguing with you. And if you want to register a clearly banned firearm with the state of New York of all places on your pistol permit so that NYSP knows exactly where to go to seize it if you're lucky and make a felony arrest if you're not then don't let me stop you.

The law merely says that others are now firearms.

Firearms are illegal in NY unless you have them registered on your pistol permit.

Where does it say you can't put one of these on your pistol permit ?

 

[Acer-m14]

 

[subsonic]

The law merely says that others are now firearms.

Firearms are illegal in NY unless you have them registered on your pistol permit.

Where does it say you can't put one of these on your pistol permit ?

Once again, Penal Law § 265.01-b subdivision (a) flatly criminalizes possession of any firearm. Period. Plus in subdivision (b), pre-SAFE-act assault weapons that weren't registered and grandfathered in.

Permits create an exemption to come in § 265.20, for "possession of a pistol or revolver by a person to whom a license therefor has been issued as provided under section 400.00 or 400.01". And section 400 only speaks of "pistol or revolver" permits. (There's also separate exemption and licensing provisions relating specifically to grandfathered SAFE-act assault weapons). An "other" is by definition not a pistol or revolver.

So, under the law, only pistols or revolvers can be registered on a pistol permit, and only pistols and revolvers are exempted from prosecution under a pistol permit. There is no "other" permit and no exemption for possession of "others" under the new law, nor for previously banned firearms. A creative lawyer could try to argue a defense based on reliance on a judge incorrectly signing off on adding a non-pistol/non-revolver firearm to a pistol permit. However that definitely will not stop the gun from being forfeited, and it won't stop you from being arrested and prosecuted. You may trust your judge, DA, and sheriff (do you really trust them THAT MUCH?) but your pistol permit goes to the state police who answer to the governor and attorney general, and who can be ordered at any time to start plowing through the database and showing up at your doorstep because YOU TOLD THEM you own a Shockwave and are trying to call it a pistol. Do you trust Kathy Hochul? Do you trust Letitia James? We've seen what they've done already before this package was passed.

 

[Uzi]

What would prevent me first of all is that I don't have a gun confiscation, sorry, pistol, permit.

Why don't you try it? This might work in some counties. Registering an illegal gun doesn't make it legal. If NYSP finds you with a gun on their naughty list producing a permit won't save you. I don't think NY Penal Law defines "pistol," but every definition I've seen includes designed to fire with one hand. That's the whole point of pistol braces. How do you fire a pump-action shotgun with one hand? Please do not send links to Terminator or cowboy movies. That's not how the slide is designed to be operated.

And if a Shockwave can be a pistol then every dealer and permitless Shockwave owner has been breaking the law up until now.

That would only matter for semiautomatic. But yes, if you tried putting a hand brace on a semiautomatic Shockwave and calling it a pistol then the SAFE act 50 oz. limit would make it an illegal assault weapon.

I hope so, but yes, this will make buying or building rifles harder and more prohibitively expensive in New York. By design. Of course this will do nothing to make anyone safer and only make life harder for the compliant.

Uzi:

I hope I'm wrong, but show me. I'm talking about the new "Other" ban in New York. I don't think you've (or others) worked through the consequences. It's not that the grip of the Shockwave and Tac-14 is not "pistolly" enough that make it slide through federal and state laws previously. It was the fact that the length of the grip made the overall length greater than 26 inches which took it out of the federal definition of a pistol (which can't be smooth-bore under federal law), and the lack of a shoulder stock kept it from being a SBS under federal or state law. If it were a conventional pistol grip it would be less than 26 inches in overall length which would make it a concealable smooth bore pistol under federal law and therefore illegal.

The new New York "Other" ban defines any explosively shooty weapon that is not a rifle or shotgun a firearm. The only firearms you can get permits for are pistols and grandfathered assault weapons (which I think is going away too? edit: nope that's the grandfathered mags), otherwise they are banned. Any pistol-grip only shotgun is not a "shotgun" under the penal law definition, which must be "intended to be fired from the shoulder". Why were either Shockwaves or longer PGO shotguns legal in New York previously? Not because they were legally defined as "shotguns" under New York law, but because they were not defined as "firearms", being enumerated as "any pistol or revolver", SBS, SBR, <26 in. rifle/shotgun, or assault weapon. So they were OTHERS, not falling under any regulated definition. OTHERS which are now banned effective July 6.

If I'm wrong, please show your work.

I deleted my comment quickly when I realized I misinterpreted what you wrote. You have some lightening fast response timing.

I don't have anything to add since you appear to be correct with your understanding of the definitions. I run a folding stock on my pistol grip pump and I woudn't ever take it off. I think that is my recommendation for those that own just a regular PGP since it is a good upgrade regardless of the retarded unconstitutional laws. You still retain the same compact size with superior shooting capability. Beyond that, it looks like the other options (no pun intended) might be shit out of luck now.

12. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade,
and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned
and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun
shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a
single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

 

[Acer-m14]

just saying lol ..

 

[Grimscale]

So much false information being given out on these boards by the new york legislature.

FIFY

 

[spat]

Once again, Penal Law § 265.01-b subdivision (a) flatly criminalizes possession of any firearm. Period. Plus in subdivision (b), pre-SAFE-act assault weapons that weren't registered and grandfathered in.

Permits create an exemption to come in § 265.20, for "possession of a pistol or revolver by a person to whom a license therefor has been issued as provided under section 400.00 or 400.01". And section 400 only speaks of "pistol or revolver" permits. (There's also separate exemption and licensing provisions relating specifically to grandfathered SAFE-act assault weapons). An "other" is by definition not a pistol or revolver.

So, under the law, only pistols or revolvers can be registered on a pistol permit, and only pistols and revolvers are exempted from prosecution under a pistol permit. There is no "other" permit and no exemption for possession of "others" under the new law, nor for previously banned firearms. A creative lawyer could try to argue a defense based on reliance on a judge incorrectly signing off on adding a non-pistol/non-revolver firearm to a pistol permit. However that definitely will not stop the gun from being forfeited, and it won't stop you from being arrested and prosecuted. You may trust your judge, DA, and sheriff (do you really trust them THAT MUCH?) but your pistol permit goes to the state police who answer to the governor and attorney general, and who can be ordered at any time to start plowing through the database and showing up at your doorstep because YOU TOLD THEM you own a Shockwave and are trying to call it a pistol. Do you trust Kathy Hochul? Do you trust Letitia James? We've seen what they've done already before this package was passed.

What is the definition of a pistol in NY ?

They have plainly allowed registration on a NY PP in the past of things that the feds would not have called a pistol.

Maybe I'll buy a shockwave and try it.

 

[kzin]

What is the definition of a pistol in NY ?

They have plainly allowed registration on a NY PP in the past of things that the feds would not have called a pistol.

Maybe I'll buy a shockwave and try it.

Interesting.
Specifics?

 

[kzin]

Once again, Penal Law § 265.01-b subdivision (a) flatly criminalizes possession of any firearm. Period. Plus in subdivision (b), pre-SAFE-act assault weapons that weren't registered and grandfathered in.

Permits create an exemption to come in § 265.20, for "possession of a pistol or revolver by a person to whom a license therefor has been issued as provided under section 400.00 or 400.01". And section 400 only speaks of "pistol or revolver" permits. (There's also separate exemption and licensing provisions relating specifically to grandfathered SAFE-act assault weapons). An "other" is by definition not a pistol or revolver.

So, under the law, only pistols or revolvers can be registered on a pistol permit, and only pistols and revolvers are exempted from prosecution under a pistol permit. There is no "other" permit and no exemption for possession of "others" under the new law, nor for previously banned firearms. A creative lawyer could try to argue a defense based on reliance on a judge incorrectly signing off on adding a non-pistol/non-revolver firearm to a pistol permit. However that definitely will not stop the gun from being forfeited, and it won't stop you from being arrested and prosecuted. You may trust your judge, DA, and sheriff (do you really trust them THAT MUCH?) but your pistol permit goes to the state police who answer to the governor and attorney general, and who can be ordered at any time to start plowing through the database and showing up at your doorstep because YOU TOLD THEM you own a Shockwave and are trying to call it a pistol. Do you trust Kathy Hochul? Do you trust Letitia James? We've seen what they've done already before this package was passed.

No doubt you've raised enough of a valid point that to be clearly safe from prosecution one would be well advised to add a stock to their alleged shotgun.
eta - add stock to 18"er
I see no 'safe' road to keeping a shockwave. Maybe stock AND new barrel? That would probably cost more than discard and replace.


I think the rest of us all know we're arguing around the edges of the law.

 

[kzin]

One point made in the link to a legal firm I provided is that given the lack of definition of what a pistol is maybe a shockwave can be one with some modification.

So add a brace to make it intended to be fired with one hand?

eta- The probable new ATF weight limit may be problematic.
We'd need to be a pistol for NY but still a federal other

 

[Phazer]

.A10504 takes effect July 6 and changes the definition of "firearm" to include "ANY OTHER WEAPON THAT IS NOT OTHERWISE DEFINED ... DESIGNED ... TO EXPEL A PROJECTILE BY ACTION OF EXPLOSIVE." That includes Shockwaves. That also includes any PGO shotgun, which is not and never has been a "shotgun" at all under New York law.

Isn't smokeless gunpowder defined as a "propellant" and not an "explosive?"

 

[spat]

Interesting.
Specifics?

Serbu Super Shorty is the example I looked at buying when I was still living in occupied territory.


Feds call it an AOW. It's shockwave-ish. Can have one on a NY permit (after the NFA paperwork)

You also used to be able to put an LBDD on a pistol permit.

So, you could own a 20mm rifle in NY, but you had to put it on your permit.

 

[Acer-m14]

Isn't smokeless gunpowder defined as a "propellant" and not an "explosive?"

good question .. which is true .. easer to ship smokeless then Black Powder ..

and then have the BP substitute which is a propellent ..

 

[subsonic]

No doubt you've raised enough of a valid point that to be clearly safe from prosecution one would be well advised to add a stock to their alleged shotgun.
eta - add stock to 18"er
I see no 'safe' road to keeping a shockwave. Maybe stock AND new barrel? That would probably cost more than discard and replace.

The only way the Shockwave has avoided ATF classification as an SBS is that it has never had a stock on it and was manufactured without it. If you put a stock on it then you are in dangerous territory compliance-wise for ever putting the 14 inch barrel back on it. Or even possessing the 14 inch barrel.

 

[Acer-m14]

this may help .. ATF Training Video

 

[Beerman]

Reviving an older thread-

I saw pics on the NYguns reddit of a guy’s Mossy 500 with a birdshead grip, no stock. People were telling him it’s illegal now, delete the pics, etc, because it’s considered an “other,” which is now banned in NYS. What does NYGF have to say?

 

[Bigfoot]

FUKH

 

[ArmedCorgi]

It's okay "JuSt sTaY aNd FIgHt"

 

[Bigfoot]

It's okay "JuSt sTaY aNd FIgHt"

I see what you did there...

 

[subsonic]

Reviving an older thread-

I saw pics on the NYguns reddit of a guy’s Mossy 500 with a birdshead grip, no stock. People were telling him it’s illegal now, delete the pics, etc, because it’s considered an “other,” which is now banned in NYS. What does NYGF have to say?

If you go up the thread and read, yes, it’s a banned firearm under New York law and posting photos that clearly show you with any shotgun without a shoulder stock and in New York is a bold and possibly foolhardy move.

Gun industry should really be paying for a Bruen-based challenge to New York’s “other” ban because under that precedent it’s a blatant 2A violation on its face. There are millions of shotguns without shoulder stocks and they’ve been around longer than the bill of rights.

This can also be raised by anyone prosecuted for possession.

More globally, I’d like to see the SBS/SBR bans be challenged on the same ground. Maybe they won’t eliminate the NFA tax/registration entirely but I do not see how the ban can be allowed to hold up.

 

[Acer-m14]

My BP Army/Navy Colt pistol has a pistol grip on it and i can put to my shoulder ..


Try it with your pistols .. bet you can place it on your shoulder too ...

 

[Saltwater60]

Yes shock waves, the likes, and others are now illegal and banned. I warned many they would do this and many still bought them saying oh they are legal. I didn’t think they would do it with the little shotguns but the AR-15 others I knew was coming. If you got one great but I would not leave it in that configuration or at your home because the NYSP now have access to FFL records and what do you think they will be looking for when searching these records. Just be smart.
Also you now need to go through a background check for black powder everything.
Many have also told me you can no longer buy a semi auto shotgun without the rifle license permit but I can’t see how that’s true.

 

[Zerex]

I traded in my Remington, Tact 14 "other"........for "ANOTHER"............this one was a Remington 870 Tactical ,18", with 6 shot mag, and an elastic 6 shell bandolier on the butt.

I found the "Tact 14" clumsy to manipulate while sitting in bed, and wildly inaccurate while standing.........I love my "ANOTHER!!"

Houchul is just trying to disarm the state for China, world communism, to SAFELY remove you form your homes...... to install illegals AND minorities, like Cuba did in 1962.........YOU STOLE ALL YOU HAVE FROM WOMEN, CHILDREN AND MINORITIES............ AS YOU ARE ALL DESCENDANTS OF SLAVE HOLDERS.

 

[Chris1389]

Yes shock waves, the likes, and others are now illegal and banned. I warned many they would do this and many still bought them saying oh they are legal. I didn’t think they would do it with the little shotguns but the AR-15 others I knew was coming. If you got one great but I would not leave it in that configuration or at your home because the NYSP now have access to FFL records and what do you think they will be looking for when searching these records. Just be smart.
Also you now need to go through a background check for black powder everything.
Many have also told me you can no longer buy a semi auto shotgun without the rifle license permit but I can’t see how that’s true.

You need a background check to buy black powder? ??

 

[subsonic]

You need a background check to buy black powder? ??

Still perfectly legal to buy out of state with no check. The ATF doesn't regulate interstate sale.

 

[Chris1389]

Still perfectly legal to buy out of state with no check. The ATF doesn't regulate interstate sale.

So triple 7 pellets for a muzzleloader i need a background check to buy? Thats bs

 

[JRtraderny]

Still perfectly legal to buy out of state with no check. The ATF doesn't regulate interstate sale.

No but Hochul and James think they can .

 

[Acer-m14]

You need a background check to buy black powder? ??

not yet .. your name just goes into the FFL book with your addy ..

i just got 3 lbs of miscellaneous powders few months ago ..

and Dec 13, 2023 i got this .. just your name in the book .. no BC ..





background check is for manufactured ammo ..

 

[JRtraderny]

not yet .. your name just goes into the FFL book with your addy ..

i just got 3 lbs of miscellaneous powders few months ago ..

and Dec 13, 2023 i got this .. just your name in the book .. no BC ..

View attachment 224569



background check is for manufactured ammo ..

But they are taking names for powder ??

 

[Acer-m14]

But they are taking names for powder ??

have been for years .. even before the CCIA .. and possibly the unsafe act ..

nothing new when buying at your local FFL ..