Presidential seal... this is pretty funny

[Marine Cpl]

I'm on mobile , no post numbers.

Turn off landscape mode and go to portrait. Or portrait to landscape.

 

[Darth]

Turn off landscape mode and go to portrait. Or portrait to landscape.

Why is everything that has the government involved more complicated?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Why is everything that has the government involved more complicated?

I agree with you. However my statement wasn’t that the government should control everything. It was that they are needed for certain things. IE... Dealing with other governments that take advantage of us.

 

[Darth]

I agree with you. However my statement wasn’t that the government should control everything. It was that they are needed for certain things. IE... Dealing with other governments that take advantage of us.

Except they are not.

Terriffs do nothing but hurt the consumer.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Except they are not.

Terriffs do nothing but hurt the consumer.

And businesses not artificially protected by them.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Except they are not.

Terriffs do nothing but hurt the consumer.

Or the American exporter who wants to sell his corn overseas. If that country charges us 12% it’s only fair for our government to charge them 12% to sell their bananas here.

Really simple.

 

[Darth]

Or the American exporter who wants to sell his corn overseas. If that country charges us 12% it’s only fair for our government to charge them 12% to sell their bananas here.

Really simple.

Or , another option, that farmer can make his own decision where to sell his product without government intrusion. Don't want to pay 12%? Don't sell there.

Having to pay more for those goods isn't helping me .

 

[Marine Cpl]

Or , another option, that farmer can make his own decision where to sell his product without government intrusion. Don't want to pay 12%? Don't sell there.

Having to pay more for those goods isn't helping me .

Except almost every country charges import fees. So that farmer if he wants to turn a profit will have to pay them anyway. Ideally if no country charged them except for a few, you’d have a point. But unfortunately, we can’t dictate other countries policies to remove their import fees.

And you don’t have to buy bananas from Honduras. You can buy them from Florida and pay more or less if you want.

 

[Darth]

Except almost every country charges import fees. So that farmer if he wants to turn a profit will have to pay them anyway.

And you don’t have to buy bananas from Honduras. You can buy them from Florida and pay more or less if you want.

So that leaves the decision squarely where it should be. In the hands of the producer.

I'm just fine with free trade , leaving what I should by at my disposal.

 

[Marine Cpl]

So that leaves the decision squarely where it should be. In the hands of the producer.

I'm just fine with free trade , leaving what I should by at my disposal.

Except like I said above, every country charges them. Your argument doesn’t make sense.

 

[Darth]

Except like I said above, every country charges them. Your argument doesn’t make sense.

And if I wish to continue to expand my banana enterprise, I can pay those fees or don't export. If not, I'll split.

 

[Marine Cpl]

And if I wish to continue to expand my banana enterprise, I can pay those fees or don't export. If not, I'll split.

And if you split you go belly under.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Really simple.

Except it's not that simple.

Look at the logistics of producing a finished, deliverable car in the United States. Certain components (notably, seats) may cross back and forth across the US/Mexico border 7 or 8 times before they're installed in the finished product and shipped to the dealer in Podunk to be bought by you because it's an "American-made" car.

 

[Darth]

And if you split you go belly under.

So...perhaps bananas...might not be something you want to invest in?

And you might have to make your living in something a bit more profitable?

Guess I can pass on the government ballot of my fir sink reapholstering venture...

 

[Marine Cpl]

Except it's not that simple.

Look at the logistics of producing a finished, deliverable car in the United States. Certain components (notably, seats) may cross back and forth across the US/Mexico border 7 or 8 times before they're installed in the finished product and shipped to the dealer in Podunk to be bought by you because it's an "American-made" car.

And that’s why government can impose fees to prevent that to keep jobs here for the American worker instead of doing nothing so that the Mexican worker can make it.

 

[Marine Cpl]

So...perhaps bananas...might not be something you want to invest in?

And you might have to make your living in something a bit more profitable?

Guess I can pass on the government ballot of my fir sink reapholstering venture...

Correct. All farmers can do that. Let’s just not farm anything. We’ll become a country with no agriculture. We’ll just eat what they import in from Honduras.

 

[Darth]

Correct. All farmers can do that. Let’s just not farm anything. We’ll become a country with no agriculture. We’ll just eat what they import in from Honduras.

If we had no farming industry...seems like that would be a good place to invest. You'd make a killing. Especially from those that prefer us grown.

And next week in lesson 2 in basic economics ...

 

[BDinPutnam]

And that’s why government can impose fees to prevent that to keep jobs here for the American worker instead of doing nothing so that the Mexican worker can make it.

Huh?

They ALL "make it." Its why I when I hear talk of imposing tariffs on foreign made autos.

Is it I think BMW that assembles cars in NC and employs like 10,000 people?

Guess what. Those cars are "made in the USA" but would be subject to tariffs.

Yes you can rattle on about yuppies and bimmers if you'd like but the economy (US and global both) ain't nearly as simple as Cheeto Jesus would like you to believe.

Guess what happens on the far side of protectionism. American steel goes up in price because the barrier to entry to market (for foreign competitors) isn't worth paying.

Great for the steel industry (and preserving those 78,000 or so votes that Trump won the overall election with).

Overall cost and standard of living?

Not so much.

I do think that China cheats like a motherfucker. And I do think we need to be tougher on them. Mostly their human rights bullshit but I am an old softie on that front (read: old school anticommunist conservative). But also their crap on intellectual property.

The administration's approach on trade is slapdash and chaotic and hard to predict. There's a reason the Fed is potentially going to lower rates while the economy is good, inflation is tame, and unemployment is low. Uncertainty is the enemy of prosperity.

 

[BDinPutnam]

PS I keep hearing about record low unemployment, which is *clearly* Trumps doing.

So which is it- the economy is awesome because of Trump. Or jobs dont exist so we need to do more?

 

[Marine Cpl]

If we had no farming industry...seems like that would be a good place to invest. You'd make a killing. Especially from those that prefer us grown.

And next week in lesson 2 in basic economics ...

Yep. And then come the foreign tariffs. Full circle.

 

[Marine Cpl]

PS I keep hearing about record low unemployment, which is *clearly* Trumps doing.

So which is it- the economy is awesome because of Trump. Or jobs dont exist so we need to do more?

The economy is better than it was before. It isn’t absolute to where it’s 100 percent or 0 percent. Just better. You are looking at things from one extreme to another. More jobs are here. Yes. But not 100 percent.

The government needs more involvement for that to happen. And it isn’t just Trump. Congress has to pass it.

 

[BDinPutnam]

The government needs more involvement for that to happen. And it isn’t just Trump. Congress has to pass it.

I never took you for a statist/socialist but there you have it. What would you like the legislative and executive branches to do, exactly (or even approximately)? What is "it" in your comment above?

You will never get "100%" (whatever you mean by that) regardless of state intervention- a lot or none, either way. Most empirical evidence would suggest that more state involvement = less good outcomes on the broadest levels.

 

[BDinPutnam]

PS if you are looking for 100% employment there are ways of doing that.

Most of them involve forced labor and/or genocide.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I never took you for a statist/socialist but there you have it. What would you like the legislative and executive branches to do, exactly (or even approximately)? What is "it" in your comment above?

You will never get "100%" (whatever you mean by that) regardless of state intervention- a lot or none, either way. Most empirical evidence would suggest that more state involvement = less good outcomes on the broadest levels.

Now you are going up the deep end. Socialist? Come on. All I’m saying is that if another country wants to charge us 12 percent, we charge them 12 percent. If an American company doesn’t want to employ an American worker to make car seats and would rather employ a Mexican worker to make car seats, then that car seat coming in has to pay 12 percent. The American company can pay that 12 percent to import the car seat or pay an American to make it and not pay the 12 percent.

Totally the company’s choice.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Also- when those car seats go back and forth across the border they increase ties between our countries and (ideally) economic stability within our trading partner. Which (again, ideally) leads to general stability in one of the only countries we happen to share a border with, which is in my mind a net positive on the national security front.

What do you think happens to the price of your "US made" car when components of it are subject to 12% tariffs 7 or 8 times before it is finished and shipped to your dealer?

 

[Marine Cpl]

PS if you are looking for 100% employment there are ways of doing that.

Most of them involve forced labor and/or genocide.

Again. Deep end. Did you an Darth have beers last night or something?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Also- when those car seats go back and forth across the border they increase ties between our countries and (ideally) economic stability within our trading partner. Which (again, ideally) leads to general stability in one of the only countries we happen to share a border with, which is in my mind a net positive on the national security front.

What do you think happens to the price of your "US made" car when components of it are subject to 12% tariffs 7 or 8 times before it is finished and shipped to your dealer?

America First BD. The American worker first. Fuck Globalism.

 

[BDinPutnam]

America First BD. The American worker first. Fuck Globalism.

Which American worker?

The steel worker or the autoworker?

Government meddling is going to fuck one of them.

Your pick.

Not trying to pick a fight with you but this shit is way more complicated than (it seems) you want to think.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Which American worker?

The steel worker or the autoworker?

Government meddling is going to fuck one of them.

Your pick.

Not trying to pick a fight with you but this shit is way more complicated than (it seems) you want to think.

Any worker. Any product. If it’s made here and the worker is paid here, where will he spend his money in contrast to the Mexican worker making American products in Mexico ? My guess is that the Mexican worker is going to spend it in Mexico instead of the American worker spending his money at an American business who in turn spends his profit growing his business and hiring another American or spending it on a vacation in Florida.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Yeah but it doesn't work that way.

Protect American steel? Good for American steel workers, bad for American autoworkers.