DoOver
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Russian Coup?
- Thread starter Cavalry
- Start date
DoOver
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Well, maybe some did that we don't know about. We will just have to keep an eye on people falling out of tall buildings, and those coming down with sudden mysterious illness'.
Robin
This just in, “the Biden administration is taking credit for brokering a peace agreement with the Taliban and North Koreans Wagnar group and the North Vietnamese Russians.”
press secretary Raggedy Ann
press secretary Raggedy Ann
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
I suppose your right, but I base my opinions on the evidence , I see no evidence about this attack that killed 2000 men. No bodies no burning buildings no places named .But if you want to take this at face value , ok.
That_FNG
.308 Win
Beerman
6.5 Creedmoor
Shit- I know EXACTLY what is going on, every secret detail, but I’m not telling the jackwagons on *THIS* board! We rule, dude!
stokes
.338 Win Mag
Not taking anything at face value, just commenting on whats being reported. Do you really believe they got to within 200 miles of Moscow? Regardless of the Wagner forces being blown up as they said or not, I just cant see Putin allowing them to get that close unless there was a plan we dont know about. Like the CIA giving this guy billions to stage a coup, he started it and when he got the money he divvied up with Putin and went away. No evidence of that either, just idle commentary. Which is all anybody can do at this point, its all a mystery.
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say or imply that.
Bizarre claim of 2000 Wagner mercenaries killed by Russian forces came from Prigozhin without any evidence which he could have easily provided. This is why this claim can be discounted.
Prove it happened
Prove it didn't happen
There's so much propaganda, selective reporting and deliberate falsification that we're probably never going to know what really happened.
When someone makes a bizarre or sensational claim, he has the burden of proof, especially when that claim is provable.
stokes
.338 Win Mag
Didnt mean to imply that I believed it.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Well, one is just a theoretical possibility known as a double cross, the other was a report by the press as a fact. which is fine, but because the press lies so much Id like to see some evidence that Russia attacked one the best units they had fighting for them.the attack was the reason given for Wagners march toward Moscow. Russia just attacked them in their barracks killing 2000 of them for what reason? It might have happened , its possible, but not likely.
I cant prove a negative, that they weren't attacked , but if you have any real evidence, Ill concede the point.
The thing is , nothing about this story made any sense from the get go, and the sources , are pathological liars , so I'm pretty skeptical .
where did wagner think it was going to get supplies from? the russian army? wagner had 25000 troops, where is it going to get 25000 meals a day from? wagner has no airforce . the whole story was weak.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
the information is very limited and slanted
No argument there
I can't figure out why the west media went from treating prigozhin like he's Saddam to thinking he's righteous in the span of 24 hours.
It's not adding up
spat
.950 JDJ
The default is "we don't know".
Unless one or the other of the claims is widely improbable, then the default is "we don't know", and any claim otherwise, in *either* direction needs evidence.
In other cases where *both* options are widely improbable, then the default is also "we just don't know".
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
ZeroHedge
ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
www.zerohedge.com
Describing the Congressional briefings, The New York Times reported late Saturday that "U.S. spy agencies had indications days earlier that Mr. Prigozhin was planning something and worked to refine that material into a finished assessment, officials said."
"The information shows that the United States was aware of impending events in Russia, similar to how intelligence agencies had warned in late 2021 that Vladimir V. Putin was planning to invade Ukraine."
But unlike in the case of those prior invasion warnings of February 2022, the US administration stayed silent ahead of the dramatic Wagner events, likely hoping that it would create destabilization in the Russian state, and negatively impact military operations in Ukraine. So far, there's been little evidence to suggest the whole short-lived mutiny by Wagner led to significant Ukrainian gains along the frontlines.
The Times explains the rationale of its intel sources as follows:
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
If the default is We dont know , then the press should say we dont know, not print it as a fact. the only one claiming the Russians bombed Wagner is Prigozhin . what the hell kind of journalism is that?
spat
.950 JDJ
Yellow. That is yellow journalism.
In 2023 most journalists have been pedaling propaganda so thick and heavy for so long, that they don't even know how to properly report a story when they *don't* have an associated agenda.
Proper journalism would be to report that Prigozhin alleged that attack, and used it as justification to move into Rostov ( assuming we have independent corroboration that *that* even happened)
They are all about creating a narrative, and not at all about enumerating facts anymore. They don't even know *how* to report a story without fabricating a narrative. Journalism is dead.
Spat lives on planet Mars. Spat was launched into space by NASA two years ago.
The default is?
spat
.950 JDJ
Since both of those qualify as "highly improbable" and the opposite "spat lives on earth, and has never left it" is *not* highly improbable, then the burden of proof would be on the person making that statement.
Arjuna
.338 Win Mag
DoOver
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Arjuna
.338 Win Mag
Dr. Evil
20×102mm Vulcan
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Take it with a grain of salt:
Eugene Prigozhin published the first detailed statement after the suppression of the insurgency.
- The formal reason was the "intrigues", which would have led to the "disbandment of the PMCs" on July 1. According to him, PMCs began their march to protest. Columns of PMCs stopped a little over 200 kilometers away from Moscow - the total length of the march was 780 kilometers. At the moment when, according to him, the blood was ready to be spilled, the PMCs stopped.
- Prigozhin does not deny the fact of retaliatory strikes on the aircraft of the Russian Defense Ministry, explaining it by self-defense. As a result of strikes on PMCs, 30 Wagners were killed.
- Prigozhin confirmed that Lukashenko suggested the decision to keep the PMC "in their jurisdiction.
- According to him, the "march of justice" demonstrated the problems of the Russian Armed Forces and law enforcement agencies, while if the PMC had performed the tasks at the beginning of the UDF, the result would have been different ("we showed a result that the Russian army should have demonstrated.)
- The head of the Wagner PMC promotes a different point of view, different from Friday-Saturday: the march was an act of protest, not defiance. PMC showed a "master class" and was supported by all, but the Russian Armed Forces and security forces are weaker than the PMC. Not a single statement about Shoigu and Gerasimov was made.
Military camp for the "Wagner" PMC began to be built in Belarus - the media, citing the forestry of Mahiliou region
Information has already caused hysteria in the Kiev media. According to the media sources, there will be several camps. The first camp is allegedly planned in Osipovichi, Mogilev region (200 km from the border with Ukraine), its area is allegedly 24,000 square meters, it will be designed for 8,000 people. "We are working, we are already working today. Tomorrow before lunch is the task (to build)," said the interlocutor of the publication "Wurstka".
Opinion from the front about the introduction of multikam in the Russian army in the new VCPO: "We are now beginning to be transferred to the new uniform - multikam. Mixed feelings. First of all, shit, the armed forces of the Russian Federation are being switched to the uniform of the colors used by NATO. Is that normal? Come to think of it, during World War II they would have decided to switch from green to gray uniforms.
And then our assault troops were strictly forbidden to wear cartoons, so we wouldn't kill each other in the trenches. We're all dressed entirely in moss and pixel, you know, olive - "Gorka" I mean. Bandages are bandages, but you see cartoons and work on instinct.
Or, for example, there is no communication between units. Previously, if the multicam goes, then everything is immediately clear, you prepare for battle. And now you have to think about it, question them somehow. The Ukras, not the Ukras. I mean, perhaps such a decision was made for a reason, people thought, probably. But this approach can really make life harder for everyone. It is really dangerous for life.
Tarnavsky in the general staff of the AFU proposed to organize three crossings, one from Nikopol to Kamianka-Dneprovsk, the second Dudchan to Bolshaya Lepitikha, and the third from Bereslav to Kakhovka. Additionally, organize two landing operations downstream of Kakhovka from Kherson and Stanislav.
The United States is preparing a new package of military assistance to Ukraine, including: 30 M2 "Bradley" BMPs, 25 M1126 "Stryker" APCs, ammunition for M142 "HIMARS" MLRSs, MIM-104 "Patriot" SAMs, FGM-148 "Javelin" FIM-92 "Stinger"
Eugene Prigozhin published the first detailed statement after the suppression of the insurgency.
- The formal reason was the "intrigues", which would have led to the "disbandment of the PMCs" on July 1. According to him, PMCs began their march to protest. Columns of PMCs stopped a little over 200 kilometers away from Moscow - the total length of the march was 780 kilometers. At the moment when, according to him, the blood was ready to be spilled, the PMCs stopped.
- Prigozhin does not deny the fact of retaliatory strikes on the aircraft of the Russian Defense Ministry, explaining it by self-defense. As a result of strikes on PMCs, 30 Wagners were killed.
- Prigozhin confirmed that Lukashenko suggested the decision to keep the PMC "in their jurisdiction.
- According to him, the "march of justice" demonstrated the problems of the Russian Armed Forces and law enforcement agencies, while if the PMC had performed the tasks at the beginning of the UDF, the result would have been different ("we showed a result that the Russian army should have demonstrated.)
- The head of the Wagner PMC promotes a different point of view, different from Friday-Saturday: the march was an act of protest, not defiance. PMC showed a "master class" and was supported by all, but the Russian Armed Forces and security forces are weaker than the PMC. Not a single statement about Shoigu and Gerasimov was made.
Military camp for the "Wagner" PMC began to be built in Belarus - the media, citing the forestry of Mahiliou region
Information has already caused hysteria in the Kiev media. According to the media sources, there will be several camps. The first camp is allegedly planned in Osipovichi, Mogilev region (200 km from the border with Ukraine), its area is allegedly 24,000 square meters, it will be designed for 8,000 people. "We are working, we are already working today. Tomorrow before lunch is the task (to build)," said the interlocutor of the publication "Wurstka".
Opinion from the front about the introduction of multikam in the Russian army in the new VCPO: "We are now beginning to be transferred to the new uniform - multikam. Mixed feelings. First of all, shit, the armed forces of the Russian Federation are being switched to the uniform of the colors used by NATO. Is that normal? Come to think of it, during World War II they would have decided to switch from green to gray uniforms.
And then our assault troops were strictly forbidden to wear cartoons, so we wouldn't kill each other in the trenches. We're all dressed entirely in moss and pixel, you know, olive - "Gorka" I mean. Bandages are bandages, but you see cartoons and work on instinct.
Or, for example, there is no communication between units. Previously, if the multicam goes, then everything is immediately clear, you prepare for battle. And now you have to think about it, question them somehow. The Ukras, not the Ukras. I mean, perhaps such a decision was made for a reason, people thought, probably. But this approach can really make life harder for everyone. It is really dangerous for life.
Tarnavsky in the general staff of the AFU proposed to organize three crossings, one from Nikopol to Kamianka-Dneprovsk, the second Dudchan to Bolshaya Lepitikha, and the third from Bereslav to Kakhovka. Additionally, organize two landing operations downstream of Kakhovka from Kherson and Stanislav.
The United States is preparing a new package of military assistance to Ukraine, including: 30 M2 "Bradley" BMPs, 25 M1126 "Stryker" APCs, ammunition for M142 "HIMARS" MLRSs, MIM-104 "Patriot" SAMs, FGM-148 "Javelin" FIM-92 "Stinger"
RedBreast21
6.5 Creedmoor
In short, Wagner moved thousand of troops to within 65 kilometers of Kiev without one single move by Ukraine or NATO. Why? I'll tell you. Prigozhin was paid off and turned into a double agent. lol
IMHO, it was all a rouse and a brilliant one. The West believes it own BS that Putin's regime is weak and ripe to be replaced. It isn't weak at all. Prigozhin would be dead if the this was real. All actions, and I mean all, were done to sell it to the western intelligence agencies as they would sit back and wait for their plan to be executed by Prigozhin. All the while Wagner would move over 1000 Km to Belerus and just north of Zelensky. Two fronts. Putin now knows who he can trust in his administration and who he can't. All made possible by the same feckless intelligence agencies that struggled with people in pajamas and slippers. The same agencies that orchestrated the 2014 Ukraine government overthrow and started the ethic cleansing aka civil war in Ukraine that went on for 8 years before Putin stepped in. We have loose cannons driving us to WW3.