"Sandy Hook + freedom of women"

[freddy]

No. No, it isn't obvious.

I once thought the same as you. Through my own wife's pregnancies and those of my family and friends, I can no longer honestly say that unborn children are not children.

However, I can still understand and respect that you hold that view. Please respect the fact that a great many of your peers view the unborn as human children and, considering this, logically view abortion as infanticide. Start a new thread if you must, but don't belabor the point here.

Fair enough, and well said.

 

[freddy]

Obvious to who? You?
Robin

Of course!

 

[GOYABEAN]

it' for the children after all

 

[spat]

I don't understand. Are you actually saying a woman should not get to decide?

She doesn't have that choice after its born. If its a human life when its in the womb, why the difference ?

 

[freddy]

She doesn't have that choice after its born. If its a human life when its in the womb, why the difference ?

For two reasons.

One, it isn't a human life until it is born as I see it. Just like your semen isn't a human life either, although it could change into life someday given a number of factors. Same with skin cells from your nose - potentially another human being. But until you have a seperate entity it is not a human being. An acorn is not a tree. Not at all. One day it could be a tree given a number of factors.

Two, imagine we lived in a matriarchial society and the law said men were forbidden to release any 'posterity' (ejaculate). It is illegal for you to touch your monkey and shoot your load. You cannot do with your own body as you wish. Ever. You and I both know that would not sit well with any of us here. Yet some propose to control what women do with their body.

 

[Darth]

Wow, the second time I'm seeing this article in an hour.

I already addressed it once. A classic NYT trope:

Texas sharpshooter fallacy - RationalWiki

"The only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is its astronomical number of guns."

Because...you say so.

I say it is the rate of chicken wing consumption.

If you can look at 2 vastly different countries economically, socially, culturally, demographically, historically etc. and the literal limitless differences and can pick THE one variable that is causing these shootings then you are being intellectually dishonest. A trademark of the NYT.

"You have 2 sail boats out in a lake. A red one and a blue one. The red one has 4 people on it. The blue one has 4 people on it. All the people on the red boat are white. All the people on the blue boat are black. The crew of the red boat had Arbys for lunch. The crew of the blue boat had Taco Bell for lunch. The hull of the red boat is full to the brim with depleted uranium pellets. The hull of the blue ship is full to the brim with packing peanuts. The captain of the red boat has been sailing for 10 years. The captain of the blue boat has been sailing for 10 hours. The red boat has a cat on board. The blue boat has a dog on board.

The red boat sinks.

Therefor red paint is the only thing that causes boats to sink. "

-NYT

 

[holdover]

She doesn't have that choice after its born. If its a human life when its in the womb, why the difference ?

Once it passes the vagina it becomes human by magic Which side of the vagina its on determines whether or not you can kill it.

 

[holdover]

""One, it isn't a human life until it is born as I see it. ""

How can a person that murders a pregnant woman, be charged with double homicide then? How does that work?

 

[freddy]

One it passes the vagina it becomes human by magic Which side of the vagina its on determines whether or not you can kill it.

It is magic. Part of woman until birth. Then, and only then, new life is born.

 

[freddy]

""One, it isn't a human life until it is born as I see it. ""

How can a person that murders a pregnant woman, be charged with double homicide then? How does that work?

Simple. Because the law is imperfect, and people are vindictive irrational animals that, more than anything; don't want to die.

 

[holdover]

Im going to have to go ahead and disagree with ya there,( as usual)

American College of Pediatricians – March 2017

ABSTRACT: The predominance of human biological research confirms that human life begins at conception—fertilization. At fertilization, the human being emerges as a whole, genetically distinct, individuated zygotic living human organism, a member of the species Homo sapiens, needing only the proper environment in order to grow and develop. The difference between the individual in its adult stage and in its zygotic stage is one of form, not nature. This statement focuses on the scientific evidence of when an individual human life begins.

An organism is defined as “(1) a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole, and (2) an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent: a living being.” 22

It is clear that from the time of cell fusion, the embryo consists of elements (from both maternal and paternal origin) which function interdependently in a coordinated manner to carry on the function of the development of the human organism. From this definition, the single-celled embryo is not just a cell, but an organism, a living being,

When Human Life Begins

 

[holdover]

Simple. Because the law is imperfect, and people are vindictive irrational animals.

Not very convincing, The courts are to stupid to recognize whether the woman is carrying a child or not? Come on man , You going to have to do better than that .If its not human, then you cant be charged with homicide pretty simple. The law is clear on what homicide is,

hom·i·cide
ˈhäməˌsīd/
noun
North American
noun: homicide; plural noun: homicides

1. the deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murder.
   "he was charged with homicide"
   synonyms: murder, killing, slaughter, butchery, massacre; More
   assassination, execution, extermination;
   patricide, matricide, infanticide;
   

 

[holdover]

Depends if I was the one being killed or not

 

[holdover]

You choose to ignore how you would feel if your body were controlled by force against your will.

The law stops you from doing all sorts of things , Like punching an asshole in the face.

 

[freddy]

Not very convincing, The courts are to stupid to recognize whether the woman is carrying a child or not? Come on man , You going to have to do better than that .If its not human, then you cant be charged with homicide pretty simple. The law is clear on what homicide is,

hom·i·cide
ˈhäməˌsīd/
noun
North American
noun: homicide; plural noun: homicides

1. the deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murder.
   "he was charged with homicide"
   synonyms: murder, killing, slaughter, butchery, massacre; More
   assassination, execution, extermination;
   patricide, matricide, infanticide;

Abortion is legal. Just as it should be. It is a right (and comon sense) for people to do as they wish with there own body. As in "free".

 

[holdover]

The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), the branch of the government tasked with enhancing the health and well-being of Americans, has released its draft strategic planfor 2018 to 2022, and that plan defines life as beginning at conception

 

[freddy]

The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), the branch of the government tasked with enhancing the health and well-being of Americans, has released its draft strategic planfor 2018 to 2022, and that plan defines life as beginning at conception

Ha! Good luck. You're gonna need it.

Women are all done with men like you telling them what they can or cannot do.

Magical thinking bro! Ain't going to happen.

 

[holdover]

Abortion is legal. Just as it should be. It is a right (and comon sense) for people to do as they wish with there own body. As in "free".

Except its not their own body they are doing it to by law. Nobody has a ""right"" to take another's life unless under extreme circumstances, at least the courts see it that way , I know you have your own justice system

 

[holdover]

Ha! Good luck. You're gonna need it.

Women are all done with men like you telling them what they can or cannot do.

Luck has nothing to do with the law.

 

[freddy]

Except its not their own body they are doing it to by law. Nobody has a ""right"" to take another's life unless under extreme circumstances, at least the courts see it that way , I know you have your own justice system

Amazing!

 

[holdover]

Amazing but TRUE!

 

[freddy]

So you tell us when Roe vs Wade will be overturned. We will revisit your prediction then and see how you did.

 

[spat]

For two reasons.

One, it isn't a human life until it is born as I see it. Just like your semen isn't a human life either, although it could change into life someday given a number of factors. Same with skin cells from your nose - potentially another human being. But until you have a seperate entity it is not a human being. An acorn is not a tree. Not at all. One day it could be a tree given a number of factors.

Two, imagine we lived in a matriarchial society and the law said men were forbidden to release any 'posterity' (ejaculate). It is illegal for you to touch your monkey and shoot your load. You cannot do with your own body as you wish. Ever. You and I both know that would not sit well with any of us here. Yet some propose to control what women do with their body.

Assuming you are correct about birth being the beginning of a human life, then you are absolutely correct about abortion. Before it's a distinct human being an abortion is just like having a wart removed, elective surgery. The real question, is why is birth the correct point to use as a cutoff ?

We all read about those teen moms who give birth in a bathroom stall and throw the baby out in the trash and are charged with murder, yet if one had claimed to have killed the baby prior to it exiting the vagina they would be all in the clear. Should it really be the difference between murder and nothing if the woman was smart enough to poke a hole in the head as she was delivering ?

If that's the case, how can someone be charged with murder when a woman miscarries as a result of an assault ?

I don't know where the correct point to designate the beginning of a human life is, I just know that is the real question that must be answered, once that is clear all the rest of the abortion debate about rights and so forth becomes irrelevant.

All I ask is that the law is consistent about when it's a human and when it's still just a piece of the mother, and right now it is anything but.

 

[freddy]

Except its not their own body they are doing it to by law. Nobody has a ""right"" to take another's life unless under extreme circumstances, at least the courts see it that way , I know you have your own justice system

The law is abortion is legal. You don't get that?

 

[holdover]

No it will never be over turned. to many people have no interest in the truth

 

[Airborneguy]

Snappo?

 

[spat]

You choose to ignore how you would feel if your body were controlled by force against your will.

Once the kid is born the mom can't just get rid of it, why before ?

Personally I think abortion should be legal up to 6 months after birth, sort of a trial period for parents. Makes as much sense as birth to me.

 

[freddy]

Assuming you are correct about birth being the beginning of a human life, then you are absolutely correct about abortion. Before it's a distinct human being an abortion is just like having a wart removed, elective surgery. The real question, is why is birth the correct point to use as a cutoff ?

We all read about those teen moms who give birth in a bathroom stall and throw the baby out in the trash and are charged with murder, yet if one had claimed to have killed the baby prior to it exiting the vagina they would be all in the clear. Should it really be the difference between murder and nothing if the woman was smart enough to poke a hole in the head as she was delivering ?

If that's the case, how can someone be charged with murder when a woman miscarries as a result of an assault ?

I don't know where the correct point to designate the beginning of a human life is, I just now that is the real question that must be answered, once that is clear all the rest of the abortion debate about rights and so forth becomes irrelevant.

All I ask is that the law is consistent about when it's a human and when it's still just a piece of the mother, and right now it is anything but.

I appreciate an intelligent discussion (in stark contrast to mr holdover) so thank you for that.

 

[holdover]

The law is abortion is legal. You don't get that?

Yes I get it perfectly , But scince the courts made the decision in roe wade science has changed the reality of when human life begins . the information at that time was incomplete , and so law was passed with incomplete information.

In light of the recent advances in science and the medical field it can be seen that the law was in error.

However, even in that light , The law will never be changed because people find it useful to kill the unborn .

 

[holdover]

Once the kid is born the mom can't just get rid of it, why before ?

Personally I think abortion should be legal up to 6 months after birth, sort of a trial period for parents. Makes as much sense as birth to me.

My mother is still trying to get a really late term abortion.