Seriously, Why do people think socialism is a good idea ?

fresch · Sep 4, 2019

To the OP, yes.

To repeat please see the communist manifesto, remember what we were told by the communist, " we will take over your schools, media, then you will vote communism in".
Tv show Star Trek is a communist economy/government.

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Sneezy · Sep 4, 2019

I don't think people really get "True Socialism". They want health care for all, which isn't a bad idea unless the Gov't is in charge...otherwise they just don't get it and how much it will cost in the end. They don't understand how they will pay, what it will cost and what they will lose.

Mosinitis · Sep 4, 2019

Phazer said:
I think it's a lot more simple: Too many people think that they're going to get free shit.

The problem with Socialism is that everyone thinks that they're going to get stuff paid for by their neighbor. However, their neighbor thinks the same thing.

On the other hand there is free shit for elites at the expense of the masses.

fresch · Sep 4, 2019

Mosinitis said:
On the other hand there is free shit for elites at the expense of the masses.

Like what, please?

Podmonkey · Sep 4, 2019

vanderblack · Sep 4, 2019

Having had this discussion with my kids (now 20 and 23 yrs old) I can tell you, what little they know of socialism, they see as something from way back. It failed because people were not as educated as today and today's educated person would be more likely to make it work (yes, i set them straight on that). Also, they have worked their asses off to maintain high grades and are striving for interesting jobs that will allow them to support themselves. However, they have been passed over for summer jobs and career jobs by those who did not have to work nearly as hard. Those who were given extra 'points' due to factors like race, gender, etc. They have often questioned, why did I work so hard? They have felt at times that they would make out just as well if they didn't try and let the government pay for everything. They look around at other with college degrees taking jobs at McDonald's because there are no jobs in the area for their major. They have looked at the size of the college loans their friends have and seen the state pay off those loans and asked, why should I try? Why go into a debt that I may never be able to pay off? Thank God they trust in the answers I provide them and they continue to try. There are a lot of kids out there that do not have the guidance my kids have had. It is much easier to simply give up and figure socialism will provide.

livingston · Sep 4, 2019

Socialism works on the belief that the government can manage things better than the private sector... Trouble is they are not allowed to fail.... and government implements so many rules and regulations (massive control ) that they cannot really be successful .

fresch · Sep 4, 2019

Also the sticky part where they kill you.

BDinPutnam · Sep 4, 2019

What's so bad about peace, love, and Happy Meals(tm)?

holdover · Sep 4, 2019

They used to call them, bleeding hart liberals.Most people are good natured, they dont want to see other people go hungry or suffer. Theres nothing wrong about that.

They just dont understand economics, freedom, the sheep dont know that the farmer who feeds them is the same one that cuts thier throats.

Catskillkid · Sep 4, 2019

I think it amounts to a lot of things. As one of the resident Millennials of the site here's how I see it.

My generation was educated in a mostly leftist vacuum that states that greedy robber barons have hoarded all the world's wealth for themselves and won't give up any for social programs, government services, infrastructure, etc. (as an aside they worship the likes of Steve Jobs and other Tech Titans which is a contradiction of their anti-business world-view but that's par for the course for folks who don't put in a lot of critical thought to their beliefs). Add into the mix a progressive narrative that white people (especially heterosexual white men who of course are capitalists) are the source of all the world's evils. Hence the only option to "fix" that is socialism or as I like to call it communism-lite. It's brainwashing by the Communist's long march through all the institutions (especially education) and reinforced by the media and entertainment industries and inside the Human Resource departments of every company large and small.

People my age were also given a promise by virtually every adult in the world. Be good a boy or girl, stay in school, get good grades, GO TO COLLEGE (doesn't matter the major) and you'll be comfortable in life. Of course those with a gender studies degree aren't so comfortable and have mountains of student debt on top of that. Add to that inflation in price of everything from staples like food and medicine to housing and you have a perfect storm of disillusionment with the capitalist system. With age I've realized that "promises" don't mean shit and while my guidance counselor was a nice guy he (and others like him) also did not prepare me for the reality of post-college life. That's not the fault of capitalism or our Republican form of government though. Folks need to be savvy and understand that there's a big difference between a philosophy degree and a computer science degree and the former you should not be going into debt over. Yes, it's on the kids who decided to take that course in life, but there should have been adults to steer them away from that and frankly, from my own personal experience, there wasn't.

In short, people under age 35 (like myself) are mostly angry. They're angry at an establishment and culture that has not supplied them with the economic opportunities they were promised and add into that an education/culture that pushed a progressive world-view on them and you have millions of kids who are marching and chanting for socialism. It's misplaced anger for sure, but this is the world-view they've adopted through educational and media propaganda.

It's scary actually. Millennials and Generation Z are being groomed to be the Hitler Youth for the globalist-communists of this country. It really is quite amazing to listen to the stupidity, the lack of critical thinking, and spitting back of propaganda talking points from the AOC supporters and Bernie bros. In short, they've been indoctrinated and I don't think anything will get them to snap out of that ideology.

Catskillkid · Sep 4, 2019

I will add this. I think there's a lot of criticism that can be leveled at capitalism or at least the crony capitalism/corporatism that we have on this country. But socialism is not the answer.

fresch · Sep 5, 2019

Catskillkid, very nice.
This is how I and my kids were raised, my kids are in the mid 30s, tow the line or the belt.
You will get only if you put in.
You are responsible for you and your family.
No one owes you unless you loan to them; don't loan to people.
You can be anything you put your mind and hard work into, college is great if you can afford it, but they still need ditch diggers.
Spare the rod spoil the child, we don't like spoiled brats.
Shut up and do as your told.
That one day you or your children will have to fight the revolution all over again.

The wife and I were constantly fighting the school system, my kids were also raised to not start fights but to finish them and protect the weaker children from bullies.

Curmudgeon · Sep 5, 2019

Communism/Socialism happens in degrees. Any time the government (the state, in communist terms) takes something over, it is another degree of socialism. Any time the state assumes authority over another or takes without consent of the individual brings further degrees of socialism.

Mosinitis · Sep 5, 2019

This is the only country in the world where Communists are equated to Nazis. It's idiotic to suggest that Communists have a real foothold here. After decades of listening to this partisan drivel, it's getting nauseating. Two equally disgusting political parties throwing labels at each other. If one would just arrive here from Mars, he would think that half of this country are Nazis and the other half are Communists. Although there is a tiny minority of both, most of the problems we have come from our culture and our history, not form some European ideology.

Curmudgeon · Sep 5, 2019

Mosinitis said:
most of the problems we have come from our culture and our history, not form some European ideology.

Can you explain this in more detail? Social programs came directly from Britain, Bismark's Germany and other places. I'm not sure if that's what you mean by "problems".

Mosinitis · Sep 5, 2019

Curmudgeon said:
Can you explain this in more detail? Social programs came directly from Britain, Bismark's Germany and other places. I'm not sure if that's what you mean by "problems".

Did the Communists bring slaves in here? Was it the Nazis? Was it the Communists who signed up 30 million people to a web service to cheat on their spouses? Was it the Nazis? Does the Communist manifesto directs men to cut off their dicks and march in pride parades? Is it the Communists who for decades knocked monogamy as unnatural and painted playboy lifestyles as cool, destroying traditional family structure. Our social programs didn't come from the Communists, they came from smart Capitalists who knew what would happen to crime rates and stability of the country if these programs weren't instituted.

repete · Sep 5, 2019

[QUOTE="Tisto, post: 595011, member: 2601"

But still I come back to the original question, What is it exactly, that is so seductive about Socialism that people run towards it no matter how many times it has been proven to fail ?[/QUOTE]
I think some (not all) of it comes down to wanting to be different from the 'older' generation, as a kid we rebelled by wearing our hair long and patched up jeans and such. Add laziness and ignorance to the mix and toss in a leader like Bernie and what do you get?

Curmudgeon · Sep 5, 2019

Mosinitis said:
Did the Communists bring slaves in here? Was it the Nazis? Was it the Communists who signed up 30 million people to a web service to cheat on their spouses? Was it the Nazis? Does the Communist manifesto directs men to cut off their dicks and march in pride parades? Is it the Communists who for decades knocked monogamy as unnatural and painted playboy lifestyles as cool, destroying traditional family structure. Our social programs didn't come from the Communists, they came from smart Capitalists who knew what would happen to crime rates and stability of the country if these programs weren't instituted.

Actually, our social welfare programs derrive directly from Britian's Tory Radicals post WWI and Otto von Bismark in the early 1900's. They were implemented by socialist politicians who claimed to want to help others, but really only enriched their friends. Milton Friedman speaks at length about it.

livingston · Sep 5, 2019

Catskillkid said:
I think it amounts to a lot of things. As one of the resident Millennials of the site here's how I see it.

My generation was educated in a mostly leftist vacuum that states that greedy robber barons have hoarded all the world's wealth for themselves and won't give up any for social programs, government services, infrastructure, etc. (as an aside they worship the likes of Steve Jobs and other Tech Titans which is a contradiction of their anti-business world-view but that's par for the course for folks who don't put in a lot of critical thought to their beliefs). Add into the mix a progressive narrative that white people (especially heterosexual white men who of course are capitalists) are the source of all the world's evils. Hence the only option to "fix" that is socialism or as I like to call it communism-lite. It's brainwashing by the Communist's long march through all the institutions (especially education) and reinforced by the media and entertainment industries and inside the Human Resource departments of every company large and small.

People my age were also given a promise by virtually every adult in the world. Be good a boy or girl, stay in school, get good grades, GO TO COLLEGE (doesn't matter the major) and you'll be comfortable in life. Of course those with a gender studies degree aren't so comfortable and have mountains of student debt on top of that. Add to that inflation in price of everything from staples like food and medicine to housing and you have a perfect storm of disillusionment with the capitalist system. With age I've realized that "promises" don't mean shit and while my guidance counselor was a nice guy he (and others like him) also did not prepare me for the reality of post-college life. That's not the fault of capitalism or our Republican form of government though. Folks need to be savvy and understand that there's a big difference between a philosophy degree and a computer science degree and the former you should not be going into debt over. Yes, it's on the kids who decided to take that course in life, but there should have been adults to steer them away from that and frankly, from my own personal experience, there wasn't.

In short, people under age 35 (like myself) are mostly angry. They're angry at an establishment and culture that has not supplied them with the economic opportunities they were promised and add into that an education/culture that pushed a progressive world-view on them and you have millions of kids who are marching and chanting for socialism. It's misplaced anger for sure, but this is the world-view they've adopted through educational and media propaganda.

It's scary actually. Millennials and Generation Z are being groomed to be the Hitler Youth for the globalist-communists of this country. It really is quite amazing to listen to the stupidity, the lack of critical thinking, and spitting back of propaganda talking points from the AOC supporters and Bernie bros. In short, they've been indoctrinated and I don't think anything will get them to snap out of that ideology.

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Mosinitis · Sep 5, 2019

Curmudgeon said:
Actually, our social welfare programs derrive directly from Britian's Tory Radicals post WWI and Otto von Bismark in the early 1900's. They were implemented by socialist politicians who claimed to want to help others, but really only enriched their friends. Milton Friedman speaks at length about it.

How many socialists or communists in US Congress voted for these programs?

Curmudgeon · Sep 5, 2019

Mosinitis said:
How many socialists or communists in US Congress voted for these programs?

All of them.

spat · Sep 5, 2019

Mosinitis said:
How many socialists or communists in US Congress voted for these programs?

Well, since most of the Republicans are closet socialists claiming to be capitalists, and the Democrats are closet communists claiming to be socialists.

I'd say the vast majority.

Mosinitis · Sep 5, 2019

Zero. Communist party membership in the US is equivalent to a felony conviction. Partisan name calling doesn't count.

meketrefe · Sep 6, 2019

Socialism can work in small and very well organized countries. They also need a set of rules and ethical behaviour from all citizens and officials sonit would not work in the US or most countries. Socialism also relies on free market and cspitslism with the differncr that you pay much higher taxes. But there is also accountability otherwise is a scam that is what happens to many countries. But it can work in a civilized socially conscious society.
The village system was socialist for centuries before someone gave this system that name.

fresch · Sep 6, 2019

meketrefe said:
Socialism can work in small and very well organized countries. They also need a set of rules and ethical behaviour from all citizens and officials sonit would not work in the US or most countries. Socialism also relies on free market and cspitslism with the differncr that you pay much higher taxes. But there is also accountability otherwise is a scam that is what happens to many countries. But it can work in a civilized socially conscious society.
The village system was socialist for centuries before someone gave this system that name.

A Commune Called Plymouth: What the Pilgrims Taught Us About Socialism - AMAC - The Association of Mature American Citizens
As in human nature, unless we evolved past this by now!
See how I've mixed all the bullshit together

Curmudgeon · Sep 6, 2019

meketrefe said:
Socialism can work in small and very well organized countries. They also need a set of rules and ethical behaviour from all citizens and officials sonit would not work in the US or most countries. Socialism also relies on free market and cspitslism with the differncr that you pay much higher taxes. But there is also accountability otherwise is a scam that is what happens to many countries. But it can work in a civilized socially conscious society.
The village system was socialist for centuries before someone gave this system that name.

It's a good point. I think you also need a mostly homogeneous population with many shared goals and beliefs.

None of those things exist in the US.

spat · Sep 6, 2019

meketrefe said:
Socialism can work in small and very well organized countries. They also need a set of rules and ethical behaviour from all citizens and officials sonit would not work in the US or most countries. Socialism also relies on free market and cspitslism with the differncr that you pay much higher taxes. But there is also accountability otherwise is a scam that is what happens to many countries. But it can work in a civilized socially conscious society.
The village system was socialist for centuries before someone gave this system that name.

Socialism never really "works".

It can persist without collapse if it remains light enough and is supported by a robust enough capitalist economy.

But it always grows, inexorably. Eventually it grows beyond the ability of the underlying capitalist economy to support it, then it collapses taking the whole economy with it.

But it never "works". It never does what it's proponents claim, at best it manages not to destroy the economy it has attached itself to for a long while.

meketrefe · Sep 6, 2019

Well you know .... everyone wants to be like sweeden but they do not want to follow rules and be held accountable.
We can say it works pretty well becsuse they sre thr right mix of capitalism, free market and social programs managed by serious people with 100% accountability.
Small countries with good education.
Just like the ancestral village system scaled to a large region.

Seriously, Why do people think socialism is a good idea ?

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