Sig P320 in the news again..

[BR3ND0]

Why defend a gun that fails in ways that other guns don't? Because you bought it? That's pretty stupid.

Trust me. Im not defending something I bought. Im more praising it, lol

I was hoping my post would start I fire. It was very fan boyish and Defensive. But I was really looking forward to all the Rebuttals and the Replies.

I do like the criticism,

But to reply to you and others, if this sounds like a angry rebuttal it is not. Just answering with info from what I have seen.

The Steyr Patent thing. I did look into i have three gun news pages and two forums that I follow religiously and read, but from what I gather off it. It was like its stated. They basically tried to patent the idea of Modular type trigger unit. Then never really had a design. Or did they have said prototype. Because the Beretta APX is Modular. Why weren't they sue’d
Because they aren’t as popular or have a 580 million contract??? Also the case is still dead really. Again not defending but patent cases can be in play due to the littlest detail or idea that may have been infringed upon. Idk but yeah.
They are accused of stealing or infringing on a patent, are they guilty of it? I cant say because i never seen a true design or prototype of their Modular Idea.

When i stated innovation. Yes i still think Sig has fueled new ideas and methods into striker fired weapons and compact ones. I like the triggers. I like what they came up with the grip frames. Are they plain jane and feel light. But if you mess up your own stipple, Paint it wrong, Dog eats it. 40 bucks gets you a new one!!!!

I do feel their motto “complete weapons systems provider” is too much. Yes its great they wanna make rifles, ammo, scopes, pistols, etc. but building and inspecting all these thing has taken a huge toll on QUALITY CONTROL of the pistol line

In short site, Is the gun i like. Which i bought a lot got and of........perfect ...NO

But in 4-5 years the have had rolling updates to the frames, slide stop, take down lever, Night sites. Trigger was more forced to recall

So they do re-act to customers input and criticism fast. They changed or upgraded it quick. Is what i was trying to point out.

That they made rolling changes in 5 years,
Where as Glock as tried to play it safe with same design and internals for 30 yrs

But people will say, yeah. Why mess with perfection. Or it works why modify it. I do agree

I just don't know why certain companies get criticized for trying to make a better firearm.

Look at Springfield armory. They didnt make a striker fire gun. The flat out bought and purchased the XD line of that Croatian company. Not innovative really. But those guns ate nice. Shoot well. Still use Springfield tooling for the barrels and triggers. I hear people say all the time. “ im not biying that foreign crap” or they knock the gun. Did they all forget Glocks are Austrian. Croatia is right next door. Practically same people made a diff style gun, plus theyvare also good weapons with one minor recall. Who cares that they are re branded.


Back to the point, I did wanna infuse a topic in this thread. Sorry if i annoyed anyone. I do love myself the conversations tho.

 

[BR3ND0]

The military has had tons of different problems with it. They have to make it work. They can't just dump them. Have you read about the problems they've had that required service?

I mean really. It's all out there. How can you pretend that the model as a whole hasn't had problems and then compare then compare them to vehicles.

Other manufacturers haven't had that amount of problems like Sig has had in their last 2 models.

I know they def had issues' with the trigger. And many people were upset they fixed it right away for military and then later recalled it for civilians. But every side arm pistol. The 1911. Beretta. Now Sig has had problems in military hands.
Sigs was first ammo related they claim. And some did experience double ejection. But has been fixed recently. Haven't seen much more posted in any military forums or news.

But i do agree. Shouldn't have happened in first place

 

[BR3ND0]

Also. What is the 2nd gun that Sig has had issues with Discharging??

 

[BR3ND0]

Also for the Record. I own a lot of P320’s, 3 Glocks, 2 Smith M&P’s, a VP9, SP101 revolver and a 1911.

I also don't count my Shield 9 and Glock for in that cuz they are Tiny compact guns, lol

I do praise the Big 3 a lot ..(Glock, Smith, Sig) Love my Glock 21C. I dare say best 45. I will put it up against any top notch 1911 out there. And the M&P’s. Omg. I feel like Smith made a striker pistol that feels like it was made to fit in your hand. Just great feel to me. But yeah. I do love my 320’s lol.

 

[BR3ND0]

The “I don’t drop it like a dumbass” is ridiculous. Guns can be dropped in a struggle. They should not shoot when dropped. Ever.

Well. I will locate the link.

3 of the 9 discharges were officers. Yes

2 of them in the bathroom. One was an officer literally dropped his pants to drop a duece. Let the pants fall to floor, causing the gun to roll over and it hit at that angle and discharged in his thigh. That was an officer for a Connecticut dept.

But yeah. I will def see someone type “ it shouldn’t discharge period!” Post

I meant drop the gun as for testing, in training, or unintentionally , like drop may pants. Improperly clip my holster with gun in it, etc

Those scenarios.

 

[NYGuns]

Ouch. That one stings a lil. But you did get it for a great deal. Night sites. FDE and gen 2 features. But Im only ball busting. Its all good

I can honestly tell all of you in this thread right now, unless that gun was reholstered improperly. Im calling shenanigans. As I once states before. I owned at Least 12 of these. Im now down to 10
I sold my 40 cal compact. And now a 9 mm compact. All but 1 of my Sig P320’s are the non-upgraded triggers. I love the old style trigger. But im also not a dumbass. I dont drop my weapon. Train well. Train smart. All that aside

I have a full size 9mm and a Compact 45 P320 that i do treat as tool. My training weapon. When i saw the drop test for it to land on the reverse slant angle upward off the beavertail. I was shocked. But its a rare occurrence, but can happen. I did start dropping my two pistols. Hell i even started throwing them with blanks to see if they popped. I will invite anyone here to do it at my club. Overhand like a hatchet. Underhand like softball etc. please. Get one of my pistols to fire. Ive done it. Got it to land once with a pop out of over 60 tries. So i invite people here. Come down to my shooting club. Fire some P320s. You may love it. Then i’ll let you throw em. Haha. Im that confident in the rare discharge occurrence. Putnam Fish and game association. Range open all week .

Yes i saw the blow hammer tests on back of slide. And omaha outdoors videos. It can happen. But Sig gives you the voluntary upgrade. Free shipping both ways. And all work. Free of charge.

Am i a Sig Snob. A Fan Boy. . Guilty as charged.

I just figure before the Edward ( yes you Ed) and the glock boys came out. I had a chance to defend a platform that i feel will change the landscape for pistols. Make the other brands work harder to please

Ya see for thirty years now. You can get the same. Reliable. Trusted. Rugged. Glock block 2 x 4 grip gun in multiple calibers. Does it do the job. Indeed.
Does it run. Indeed
Protect the masses. Indeed
Won contracts. Indeed
Have the ever thought outside the box. New pistol styles. Nah

Sig created a fully modular gun. Change caliber on the fly (albeit with a kit) from full to sub compact. Or to diff caliber

Also their polymer, striker gun was the first of its kind to have a fully metal trigger. No dingus in middle. Nor a hinge. Real metal. Real smooth too. And to think. The same trigger you perfected for the range and worked on to get them small groups. You can pull right out. Put in a compact or sub chassis. Same trigger. Same pull. Awesome for muscle memory.

After years of Steel P-series. They wanted to try new stuff. Make a new pistol.

Then they make a P365. Designed around a magazine. Again. Flat faced smooth metal trigger Its basically a Glock 43 with the 26 capacity.

Crazy right

What does glock do

Years ago.

Glock 42 380. Ehhhh ok. Wheres the nine?

* two years later*

Glock 43 9 mm. Yeaaaahhh finally. But wait 6 rounds. My j frame got that

Glock 19X. Holy diarrhea brown batman!!!!!
But wheres 17 slide / 19 grip???

Gen 5 glocks. What the hell. We a gen 2 again?

Now that 45 and front serrations?? .

And well yeah get my point.
Im happy that some company's are taking risks and innovating. Giving us more, swap able hand frames. Calibers. Mew weapon like CZ P10. Walther PPW. Sig P30. Vp9. Etc.

Sorry for the rant. Its just hate how people overlook the innovative side of SIG Sauers attempts. Like I told our fearless forum leader after the sale. Sig is really guilty of Beta testing its new products on us customers.

You sir are a class act. I got it for an amazing deal and am grateful for that, so thank you again. I didn't mean to insult you or upset you with that comment, hope you didn't take it that way. I just hate to see these issues again, especially after Sig supposedly fixed it. However, there are always 3 sides to the story so I am anxious to hear what is made of this.

 

[BR3ND0]

You sir are a class act. I got it for an amazing deal and am grateful for that, so thank you again. I didn't mean to insult you or upset you with that comment, hope you didn't take it that way. I just hate to see these issues again, especially after Sig supposedly fixed it. However, there are always 3 sides to the story so I am anxious to hear what is made of this.

I was only busting balls. No harm taken.

I just suppose I’ll be the lone SIG defender in the forums lmao.

But anyone that wants to try shooting any P320 before they buy can give mine a run.

But i have taken no offense. Union man here. Toughest skin as the come

 

[BR3ND0]

Without the trigger being pulled? Which other modern striker fired gun has suffered from that?

Look. Sig has done things right. They've created a pistol with a disposable frame. There's a lot of value in that. You can practice stippling it cutting it doing whatever you want to it without fear because you can buy another frame for 40 bucks. That's innovation. Their 365 it is also right. They've managed to get a double stack 11 round gun into the size of a normal 7 round gun. That's innovation and it's all great.

But.... They rush it. They don't test it properly. Their engineering team is spot-on. They're testing team and sales team are garbage however. A few kinks here and there is expected. But triggers breaking, guns being fired when dropped, strikers breaking, live rounds being ejected through the course of normal operation, guns going off when hit in the right place, ect... is unacceptable. And then to blame the user and only fix it after a huge backlash? That's unacceptable as well.

No i do agree with that. I have always agreed and said that Sig definitely uses its Customers as beta testers.....and with them wanting to build everything. Quality control def took a toll

 

[Uzi]

As much as the p320 is a dangerous piece of shit handgun, police will make any excuse as to why the trigger was pulled on their service weapon these days.

 

[Podmonkey]

@NYGuns, you'll be fine with the 320 I reckon. They addressed the issue it had.

If y'all do some research on the unintended discharge issues with the first two generations of Glocks you'll find that they were more problematic than the P320 was. It took until the 3gens before the problems, which were mechanical and not negligent in nature, to be fully ironed out.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

If a car took off when I touched the steering wheel I would wait until that issue was completely ironed out before buying lol.

 

[Podmonkey]

If a car took off when I touched the steering wheel I would wait until that issue was completely ironed out before buying lol.

It was a simple and stupid problem with an equally simple and stupid solution. Its GTG now.
The trigger had too much mass, they made it lighter and now it doesn't have enough inertia to pull itself when dropped at that very specific angle. Inwould have preferred an even lighter polymer trigger with a Glock style dongle for maximum safety but SIG's solution works.

 

[Edwardteach72]

It was a simple and stupid problem with an equally simple and stupid solution. Its GTG now.
The trigger had too much mass, they made it lighter and now it doesn't have enough inertia to pull itself when dropped at that very specific angle. Inwould have preferred an even lighter polymer trigger with a Glock style dongle for maximum safety but SIG's solution works.

If it worked then why did this upgraded 320 go off?

 

[Podmonkey]

If it worked then why did this upgraded 320 go off?

Do we know 100% the circumstances under which it discharged? Are we sure it wasn't negligence? Are we sure that something didn't enter the trigger guard? Are we positive this was an upgraded P320?

 

[Darth]

I'm sitting here wondering. What's more likely? The gun went off while holstered or it went off while he was holstering it? What reason would he have for holstering the gun in the middle of the cafeteria? Did he point it at the lunch lady when she tried to give him meatloaf instead of pudding? Come on guys.

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!?

 

[Edwardteach72]

Do we know 100% the circumstances under which it discharged? Are we sure it wasn't negligence? Are we sure that something didn't enter the trigger guards? Are we positive this was an upgraded P320?

I mean sig said it was upgrade, they were in the cafeteria so the gun was in the holster and would have been for some time..

ockham's razor

On one hand we can think that there was an issue with the holster (granted never any other reports of that)

Or we can think that there was something in the holster that didnt cause any issues when bolstering the gun, and walking around until getting to the cafeteria.

Or we can assume the officer took the gun out and was showing off his sweet gun twirling skills .

OR

We can look at the gun which has been plagued with AD from being bumped and a company that still wont admit that there is an issue and that they just changed a few things because it will shut people up

 

[Podmonkey]

I mean sig said it was upgrade, they were in the cafeteria so the gun was in the holster and would have been for some time..

ockham's razor

On one hand we can think that there was an issue with the holster (granted never any other reports of that)

Or we can think that there was something in the holster that didnt cause any issues when bolstering the gun, and walking around until getting to the cafeteria.

Or we can assume the officer took the gun out and was showing off his sweet gun twirling skills .

OR

We can look at the gun which has been plagued with AD from being bumped and a company that still wont admit that there is an issue and that they just changed a few things because it will shut people up

First, I assume any cop that says the gun went off "without the trigger being" pulled lying.
Usually it was an ND.
To my understanding the the issue with the unintentional discharges of the SIG P320 was due to it being dropped at such an angle, directly on the rear, that when the pistol then abruptly stop its motion upon hitting the ground the metal trigger had enough mass in it that there was enough inertia to overcome the trigger pull weight and fire. SIG came up with a bandaid approach of simply taking mass out of the trigger so there wouldn't be enough inertia generated to pull itself when dropped in this way. By all accounts I have seen this fix has been effective.
Again I will point out that Glocks had a much more serious issue regarding unintentional discharges having issues related to a variety of flaws such as search engagement and spring tensions. These problems were not fully solved until the 3rd Gen.

 

[Edwardteach72]

First, I assume any cop that says the gun went off "without the trigger being" pulled lying.
Usually it was an ND.
To my understanding the the issue with the unintentional discharges of the SIG P320 was due to it being dropped at such an angle, directly on the rear, that when the pistol then abruptly stop its motion upon hitting the ground the metal trigger had enough mass in it that there was enough inertia to overcome the trigger pull weight and fire. SIG came up with a bandaid approach of simply taking mass out of the trigger so there wouldn't be enough inertia generated to pull itself when dropped in this way. By all accounts I have seen this fix has been effective.
Again I will point out that Glocks had a much more serious issue regarding unintentional discharges having issues related to a variety of flaws such as search engagement and spring tensions. These problems were not fully solved until the 3rd Gen.

You keep bringing up glock issues like I denied that 30 years ago glock had issues?

Did you read the article?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Don't forget the hammer test Pod. It did go off with being struck. The drop test trigger inertia wasn't the only thing to make it go off.

 

[Podmonkey]

You keep bringing up glock issues like I denied that 30 years ago glock had issues?

Did you read the article?

Yes, and there are no details at all in it.

Don't forget the hammer test Pod. It did go off with being struck. The drop test trigger inertia wasn't the only thing to make it go off.

Did you watch closely the hammer tests? The hammer blows caused the gun to lurch forward and the trigger inertia caused it to remain in place. The net effect of which is that the trigger set the round off. There is high speed footage of this somewhere. Let me see if I can find it.

 

[Defilade]

Don't forget the hammer test Pod. It did go off with being struck. The drop test trigger inertia wasn't the only thing to make it go off.

Which I could not replicate!

 

[Edwardteach72]

Yes, and there are no details at all in it.

Did you watch closely the hammer tests? The hammer blows caused the gun to lurch forward and the trigger inertia caused it to remain in place. The net effect of which is that the trigger set the round off. There is high speed footage of this somewhere. Let me see if I can find it.

I mean it mentioned that the gun was upgraded and was in the holster and the gun was bumper in the cafeteria and then went off.. so yea lacking a ton of information.


Also I know what video you are talking about, you did leave out that the one hammer test video the gun wasn't in a vice and so the person not only was swinging the hammer forward but also moving the gun rearward This negates the whole hammer setting it off because of the extra inertia caused by the guns reward momentum

 

[Podmonkey]

I mean it mentioned that the gun was upgraded and was in the holster and the gun was bumper in the cafeteria and then went off.. so yea lacking a ton of information.


Also I know what video you are talking about, you did leave out that the one hammer test video the gun wasn't in a vice and so the person not only was swinging the hammer forward but also moving the gun rearward This negates the whole hammer setting it off because of the extra inertia caused by the guns reward momentum

Yeah, I don't trust the article. Since when has any news article had the slightest clue about anything gun related. I withhold judgment until I would have more details, and since I'm not likely to receive any I merely look askance towards the whole thing. A very common cause of NDs is reupholstering with the finger on the trigger. It just seems to me that the was negligence of some sort involved.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Yeah, I don't trust the article. Since when has any news article had the slightest clue about anything gun related. I withhold judgment until I would have more details, and since I'm not likely to receive any I merely look askance towards the whole thing. A very common cause of NDs is reupholstering with the finger on the trigger. It just seems to me that the was negligence of some sort involved.

But you keep adding this notion of reholstering. Like police just take their guns out and reholster dozens of times a day. He was in the cafeteria (another piece of info the article left out?) Which means he was already on the clock in uniform, pretty sure that means holstered gun. If there was an incident that required the officer to draw his gun and respond to, that would be something a news article would want to report vs leave out, but they dont mention of any incidents happening other than the holsterd gun being bumped and going off.


So again can someone show me what is making everyone bring up holstering of a gun as an issue in this part?

 

[Podmonkey]

But you keep adding this notion of reholstering. Like police just take their guns out and reholster dozens of times a day. He was in the cafeteria (another piece of info the article left out?) Which means he was already on the clock in uniform, pretty sure that means holstered gun. If there was an incident that required the officer to draw his gun and respond to, that would be something a news article would want to report vs leave out, but they dont mention of any incidents happening other than the holsterd gun being bumped and going off.


So again can someone show me what is making everyone bring up holstering of a gun as an issue in this part?

I call bullshit on the bump thing. Sounds like total bullshit to me. In this particular case.
Sounds like some bullshit excuse that some non gun ignoramus would say to cover up something stupid they'd done.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I call bullshit on the bump thing. Sounds like total bullshit to me. In this particular case.
Sounds like some bullshit excuse that some non gun ignoramus would say to cover up something stupid they'd done.

Normally I would agree when it happens in the locker room, patrol car, ect. It's usually the officer finger fucking the gun.

This happened in the school cafeteria. Even a Rambo wannabe cop would not unholster and finger fuck the trigger in a school cafeteria full of kids.

We all finger fuck our guns at home or maybe in a car. But never out in public. There's no reason to.

 

[Defilade]

Normally I would agree when it happens in the locker room, patrol car, ect. It's usually the officer finger fucking the gun.

This happened in the school cafeteria. Even a Rambo wannabe cop would not unholster and finger fuck the trigger in a school cafeteria full of kids.

We all finger fuck our guns at home or maybe in a car. But never out in public. There's no reason to.

Lol....hence the term Dumbasses!

 

[Podmonkey]

Normally I would agree when it happens in the locker room, patrol car, ect. It's usually the officer finger fucking the gun.

This happened in the school cafeteria. Even a Rambo wannabe cop would not unholster and finger fuck the trigger in a school cafeteria full of kids.

We all finger fuck our guns at home or maybe in a car. But never out in public. There's no reason to.

You and @Edwardteach72 both have very good points on this but still....... In a world where stuff like this happens:
Or this:
Or this:
I pretty much assume negligence right off the bat.

 

[Edwardteach72]

You and @Edwardteach72 both have very good points on this but still....... In a world where stuff like this happens:
Or this:
Or this:
I pretty much assume negligence right off the bat.

All guns that are not in the holster


And I get what you are saying.. trust me i get that this looks like another oh hey look who's "bashing" sig.

But all evidence presented (again I have yet to see a news article that would gloss over a crazed officer waving an upholstered gun at poor innocent children) you have a gun known to fire unintentionally from a company that works very hard to make people believe that any issue with the guns is user error. Hell I would be interested in if the full upgrade was done, there was some internal work not just a new trigger shoe. Sig USA is kinda shotty on the QC

 

[Podmonkey]

All guns that are not in the holster


And I get what you are saying.. trust me i get that this looks like another oh hey look who's "bashing" sig.

But all evidence presented (again I have yet to see a news article that would gloss over a crazed officer waving an upholstered gun at poor innocent children) you have a gun known to fire unintentionally from a company that works very hard to make people believe that any issue with the guns is user error. Hell I would be interested in if the full upgrade was done, there was some internal work not just a new trigger shoe. Sig USA is kinda shotty on the QC

I would just like more information on this incident but we'll never get it so......