Swiss voters approve stricter gun control laws to fit with EU rules

[Celt]

If it is the will of the majority of people, good for them.

Well, I would disagree with that. The majority of the people should not have the power to take away rights from the minority. Owning a weapon is a right that's not granted to us by the government, it's a natural right to have the best tools for self-protection granted to us by birth. Fortunately for us, we are a constitutional republic; which protects (supposed to protect) the enumerated rights of the minority from the majority.

In a system where the majority can strip the rights from the minority it's basically considered mob rule. If the majority of people said that everyone cannot leave their house after 9 p.m. and everyone must wear red clothes everyday, would you agree that the minority I'm people should be forced to live with those rules?.

But this is what happens when people like George Soros and the other powerful globalists take control of the media and brainwash the Sheep.

 

[Celt]

If it is the will of the majority of people, good for them.

Well, I would disagree with that. The majority of the people should not have the power to take away rights from the minority. Owning a weapon is a right that's not granted to us by the government, it's a natural right to have the best tools for self-protection granted to us by birth. Fortunately for us, we are a constitutional republic; which protects (supposed to protect) the enumerated rights of the minority from the majority.

In a system where the majority can strip the rights from the minority it's basically considered mob rule. If the majority of people said that everyone cannot leave their house after 9 p.m. and everyone must wear red clothes everyday, would you agree that the minority I'm people should be forced to live with those rules?.

But this is what happens when people like George Soros and the other powerful globalists take control of the media and brainwash the Sheep.

 

[Criticalt]

To be honest, the Swiss are by no means being "disarmed".
There are millions of guns and a huge gun culture.
Next thing you know, the EU will come for their knives!!

 

[prambo]

Spent a little time in Switzerland, especially Zurich and Geneva, in transit for home leave and back to Kenya. Always thought it was a nice place to visit, but wouldn't want to live there.

Now the "solid" Swiss have gone full retard, and voted themselves into a socialist quagmire, while binding themselves to the oligarchic EU.

Morons.

 

[meketrefe]

Aloha Snackbar!!!!

 

[GOPerfect]

Well, I would disagree with that. The majority of the people should not have the power to take away rights from the minority. Owning a weapon is a right that's not granted to us by the government, it's a natural right to have the best tools for self-protection granted to us by birth. Fortunately for us, we are a constitutional republic; which protects (supposed to protect) the enumerated rights of the minority from the majority.

In a system where the majority can strip the rights from the minority it's basically considered mob rule. If the majority of people said that everyone cannot leave their house after 9 p.m. and everyone must wear red clothes everyday, would you agree that the minority I'm people should be forced to live with those rules?.

But this is what happens when people like George Soros and the other powerful globalists take control of the media and brainwash the Sheep.

We live by majority each and everyday in America. Our entire premise of law and order is based on it. Our elections are by majority, our courts are by majority. Our penal system at times is based in the vote and the will of the majority. The list goes on and on.

If a Constitutional Convention were to occur again, the majority would win.

I do not believe that in our lifetime or that of our children will the First or Second amendments disappear, but there are tools in place to greatly alter our Founding Documents. Also, we have a Court system that rules by the majority, our Rights are striped from us all of the time by the majority vote. I am not saying that I am happy with it, not at all. Just pointing out that these tools and guidelines are place.

 

[spat]

We live by majority each and everyday in America. Our entire premise of law and order is based on it. Our elections are by majority, our courts are by majority. Our penal system at times is based in the vote and the will of the majority. The list goes on and on.

If a Constitutional Convention were to occur again, the majority would win.

I do not believe that in our lifetime or that of our children will the First or Second amendments disappear, but there are tools in place to greatly alter our Founding Documents. Also, we have a Court system that rules by the majority, our Rights are striped from us all of the time by the majority vote. I am not saying that I am happy with it, not at all. Just pointing out that these tools and guidelines are place.

You are missing the distinction. Our rights are not stripped from us by majority votes. They are infringed on by majority votes.

I would like to remind you that virtually every major atrocity in human history was carried out with the full legal sanction of the sovereign nation in which it occurred.

Holocaust
Armenian Genocide
Slavery (many times many places)
Kyhmer Rouge
Stalinist Russia (multiple incidents)
Maoist China (multiple incidents)
Belgian Congo

There is a pretty good start for a list here, but there are many more incidents. Suffice it to say, that when the majority decided to oppress a minority (or in some cases even the other way around), and that oppression crosses a line, the oppressed are justified in resisting with all available force, and no amount of legal justification for the oppression can change that.

List of genocides by death toll - Wikipedia

 

[Celt]

We live by majority each and everyday in America. Our entire premise of law and order is based on it. Our elections are by majority, our courts are by majority. Our penal system at times is based in the vote and the will of the majority. The list goes on and on.

If a Constitutional Convention were to occur again, the majority would win.

I do not believe that in our lifetime or that of our children will the First or Second amendments disappear, but there are tools in place to greatly alter our Founding Documents. Also, we have a Court system that rules by the majority, our Rights are striped from us all of the time by the majority vote. I am not saying that I am happy with it, not at all. Just pointing out that these tools and guidelines are place.

I only asked, because I think I understand your position on these types of things well, and your statement seems somewhat contradictory to what I thought your opinion on the subject was.

I understand it's a different country they have different rules, and their rights are not protected the way ours are, but that doesn't make it right that a majority of Voters can take away natural rights of the minority. It's quite different when it's an issue of a natural right as compared to laws and regulations regarding human behavior in public. It's one thing to pass laws about texting and driving, it's quite another to tell people they don't have the right to protect themselves with the best tools possible.

 

[GOPerfect]

You are missing the distinction. Our rights are not stripped from us by majority votes. They are infringed on by majority votes.

I would like to remind you that virtually every major atrocity in human history was carried out with the full legal sanction of the sovereign nation in which it occurred.

Holocaust
Armenian Genocide
Slavery (many times many places)
Kyhmer Rouge
Stalinist Russia (multiple incidents)
Maoist China (multiple incidents)
Belgian Congo

There is a pretty good start for a list here, but there are many more incidents. Suffice it to say, that when the majority decided to oppress a minority (or in some cases even the other way around), and that oppression crosses a line, the oppressed are justified in resisting with all available force, and no amount of legal justification for the oppression can change that.

List of genocides by death toll - Wikipedia

@spat you are a gentleman and a scholar. I am aware of many of the atrocities that you mention. Many of these incidents and events took place without the knowledge of the people. I have never said all this is correct and right; just pointing out how things are. You state that Rights cannot be taken away, to an extent, I agree. Our Rights are infringed upon quite a lot, makes me sad. If they are infringed upon enough, is a Right still a Right? Or has it become worthless?

As for the minority/majority thing... We always need to look for a compromise, I would rather the Majority have the final say than the minority.

 

[GOPerfect]

And, back on subject a bit...

The Swiss pass nearly everything by majority vote. Been like that for a very, very long time. It works for them and has worked for them; I will not judge how they get things done in their own Country. Again, good for them for maintaining their own rules of governess.

 

[BDinPutnam]

And, back on subject a bit...

The Swiss pass nearly everything by majority vote. Been like that for a very, very long time. It works for them and has worked for them; I will not judge how they get things done in their own Country. Again, good for them for maintaining their own rules of governess.

They are, also, in spite of having five (I think?) languages, fairly homogeneous culturally speaking.

 

[Jmac00]

meanwhile, In Poland, they are constantly telling the E.U. to go pound sand. Poland will not let Muslims in or immigrants from anywhere. that pissed off the EU. Then they expanded their gun laws, that pissed of the EU, but the polish people don't care, they have not had a Jihad terrorist attack, ever. Imagine that.

You can make all the polish jokes you want. Thay are a proud and independent people

 

[GOPerfect]

meanwhile, In Poland, they are constantly telling the E.U. to go pound sand. Poland will not let Muslims in or immigrants from anywhere. that pissed off the EU. Then they expanded their gun laws, that pissed of the EU, but the polish people don't care, they have not had a Jihad terrorist attack, ever. Imagine that.

You can make all the polish jokes you want. Thay are a proud and independent people

Their tourism is at one of the highest levels. Huh?

 

[Shadow2]

FYI, My rights are unalienable and are not granted by the constitution, they can amend the document all they like. I still have the right to free speech and the right to bear arms.

We have the rule of law here. I like the rule of law, I attempt to follow that each and everyday. If the Constitution was to be amended, again, and if it was done correctly, yes. Yes, I would support that alteration.

I am not at all concerned though, it will never occur.

 

[BDinPutnam]

I think somehow "the social compact", the rule of law, and natural rights are getting all muddled up in this thread.

 

[GOPerfect]

FYI, My rights are unalienable and are not granted by the constitution, they can amend the document all they like. I still have the right to free speech and the right to bear arms.

Um okay. Any others that are not in print? Or just those two?

 

[spat]

They are, also, in spite of having five (I think?) languages, fairly homogeneous culturally speaking.

Well, they *were* fairly homogeneous.

I suppose if things keep going the way they are they will and up homogeneous again, just with a new culture.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Me and 2 co workers had a lengthy discussion about "natural rights". What exactly are natural rights?

 

[GOPerfect]

Me and 2 co workers had a lengthy discussion about "natural rights". What exactly are natural rights?

They are in the eye of the beholder. Some say, Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Others say the Bill of Rights.

Many have no clue, they just make shit up as they go along.

 

[Celt]

Me and 2 co workers had a lengthy discussion about "natural rights". What exactly are natural rights?

To oversimplify it, I would say anything that is required to survive that does not directly take away that right from someone else that is minding their own business.

 

[spat]

They are in the eye of the beholder. Some say, Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Others say the Bill of Rights.

Many have no clue, they just make shit up as they go along.

People don't really have a consensus because by definition aren't codified in a legal document.

Here in the US our founders recognized them and put their collective opinion of what they are into the constitution and declaration of independence. That fact is plain from the wording of the declaration.

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

They also included a number of other lesser rights that exist only as part of the contract between government and the people, and they weren't always clear about which rights were which.

Personally I think they did an excellent job, although not perfect. We have 250 years of development in logical reasoning and are capable of codifying things much more precisely. We also have the advantage of 250 years of hindsight to see what unscrupulous shenanigans people have gotten up to with the original document.

I think we could, in theory, create a better foundation now. I just don't know how we would decide who to trust doing that.

 

[meketrefe]

Well, I would disagree with that. The majority of the people should not have the power to take away rights from the minority. Owning a weapon is a right that's not granted to us by the government, it's a natural right to have the best tools for self-protection granted to us by birth. Fortunately for us, we are a constitutional republic; which protects (supposed to protect) the enumerated rights of the minority from the majority.

In a system where the majority can strip the rights from the minority it's basically considered mob rule. If the majority of people said that everyone cannot leave their house after 9 p.m. and everyone must wear red clothes everyday, would you agree that the minority I'm people should be forced to live with those rules?.

But this is what happens when people like George Soros and the other powerful globalists take control of the media and brainwash the Sheep.

... 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner, right?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Who cares. The Swiss have always been anti-gun. They can have rifles at home. Sure. But they cannot protect themselves on the street and never have been able to. CCW licenses are a rarity. They've been given a false pro-gun persona for many years and it's been false.

NY is more pro-gun now then they ever were. I'd rather live somewhere that'll let me only own and carry a 5 shot revolver than in a place that lets me have any semi auto rifle only at home that can only stay at home or to the range.

 

[meketrefe]

Europe is just paving the way...

 

[BDinPutnam]

... 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner, right?

Which reminds me to point out again how much I hate the whole "I'm a sheepdog" trope.

The border collie and the sheepdog protect the sheep from the wolves.

At the behest of the shepherd until it's time to go to market.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

They are in the eye of the beholder. Some say, Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Others say the Bill of Rights.

Many have no clue, they just make shit up as they go along.

I was arguing with them that "natural rights" aren't even a thing.

 

[Shadow2]

With those 2 i'm sure i can secure any others i deem fit to secure.

Um okay. Any others that are not in print? Or just those two?

 

[Shadow2]

Rule of law can and always will be corrupted. Not something I blindly follow. So if they decide to do away with due process your ok with it?

I consider the bill of rights, red flag rights, the very rights the framers felt worthy to go to war over if ever taken away.

We have the rule of law here. I like the rule of law, I attempt to follow that each and everyday. If the Constitution was to be amended, again, and if it was done correctly, yes. Yes, I would support that alteration.

I am not at all concerned though, it will never occur.

 

[Cooolone]

It's the Swiss guys...

Not sure how to parable of the U.S. Constitution gets dragged into the discussion as its apples/oranges!

And we do not live in a Democracy, but a Republic! There are protections built in to balance the "majority" factor. Our rights are not dispensed by the will of men, nor subject to contemporary knee jerks, of course we know differently, lol.

But it is what it is...

As for Poland! A Proud people's... The only effective civilian resistance to the Nazi's in WWII. Russia was close as even grandmother's were hand digging anti-tank tranches, but with military assistance. Forget the French who pulled their pants down, and the Swiss, oh boy, those snakey suckers who straddled the fence, and took everyone's gold while doing it. What did they do in WWII, just examine that and you know all you need to know. They may have guns, they may be the largest civilian populace that's armed in Europe, but you can paint anything you want on a pig, it's still a pig!

That is all said to create the contrast required in the discussion when trying to associate the United States with Switzerland! Please, it's almost nails on a blackboard doing that... No comparison, not even close!

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

And we do not live in a Democracy, but a Republic! There are protections built in to balance the "majority" factor. Our rights are not dispensed by the will of men, nor subject to contemporary knee jerks, of course we know differently, lol.

But it is what it is...

This is what I try to say in other words. We DO get our rights dispensed by the will of men. A very small number at that. See SafeAct. If not by men then who? Even if we had rights that are "inalienable" what does it matter if they are ignored/infringed on and we do nothing about it? That makes these rights for all intents and purposes not exist. Rights are simply what we do and don't tolerate. This is even more apparent when you look at all the different nations and the rules they follow. So just like you said it is what it is. Things are just what they are.