The $10 shotgun slug!

[Podmonkey]

Point taken. I know they don't penetrate enough. But the emoji poster is saying that birdshot doesn't have more energy than a handgun bullet because each pellet has a miniscule amount and together they don't add up.

Put a 9mm point blank at gel and then do the same with birdshot. Tell me which one flips over the block.

You are confusing two different things. Cumulatively a 12 gauge bird shot shell has considerably more energy at the muzzle than any handgun round and most rifle rounds, yes. But when those pellets hit the target its notnthe cumulative energy that matters butbthe individual energy of each pellet. If you glom all the pellets together with wax or another binding agent then they add all their energy together, for as long as they stay together.

 

[Darth]

No. Sorry. My analogy was about energy alone. Reread my post.

in response to me:

As the question wasn't about more energy, but about more energy drop/penetration/lethality...some other nonsense, you were wrong, it's fine.

*reads*

...

"Do you ever notice what happens when people get shot with birdshot? They get all that energy dump from the birdshot (that is more than pistol rounds by the way) with just a few inches of penetration leaving nothing but a big, shallow hole."

..

"Vitals aren't hit. Many people survive point blank hits from birdshot."






(oh no, don't complain about the )



WUT!?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Exactly. What the fuck?

Previous to that I say, "You guys are blinded by expansion and so called energy dump/ stopping power. It's a myth. Energy dump does nothing. Expansion does nothing. It's penetration that kills.".

Yes. Leave that out.

 

[Podmonkey]

Exactly. What the fuck?

Previous to that I say, "You guys are blinded by expansion and so called energy dump/ stopping power. It's a myth. Energy dump does nothing. Expansion does nothing. It's penetration that kills.".

Yes. Leave that out.

Energy dump=equals hydrostatic shock and irs widely misunderstood. Expansion dammages more tissue and causes more bleeding. As these are the only mechanisms pistol bullets can rely on expansion is very important, as long as there is enough penetration to get to the vitals. Any penetration beyond vitals depth is wasted energy, a .650 diameter hole 14" deep is more effective than a .355 hole that goes all the way through. Temporay stretch cavities don't do anything unless its enough to rupture the tissue. Rifle rounds can do this. Pistol rounds generally cannot.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Energy dump=equals hydrostatic shock and irs widely misunderstood. Expansion dammages more tissue and causes more bleeding. As these are the only mechanisms pistol bullets can rely on expansion is very important, as long as there is enough penetration to get to the vitals. Any penetration beyond vitals depth is wasted energy, a .650 diameter hole 14" deep is more effective than a .355 hole that goes all the way through. Temporay stretch cavities don't do anything unless its enough to rupture the tissue. Rifle rounds can do this. Pistol rounds generally cannot.

Incorrect. Destroyed tissue doesn't stop a threat unless it's a vital. If that were the case, birdshot would like you.

Wasted energy is also a myth. I can hit you with a hammer on the chest and you wouldn't die.

Penetration is the only thing that kills immediately and only if a vital is struck.

 

[Podmonkey]

Incorrect. Destroyed tissue doesn't stop a threat unless it's a vital. If that were the case, birdshot would like you.

Wasted energy is also a myth. I can hit you with a hammer on the chest and you don't die.

Penetration is the only thing that kills.

I think you are thinking in absolutes.
Heavy blows to the chest, right above the heart can actually cause fatal cardiac contusions btw. And wasted energy is not a myth. poking little holes all the way throug means you had the energy to punch a larger hole most of the way through instead. And the way bullets kill is by blood loss leading to cardiac failure. Larger wounds means more bleeding and faster incapacitation. What is a myth is the instant lights out hit. Only hits to the CNS have a chance to do that. What does happen is with heavier rifle calibers enough hydrostatic shock can (but not always) reach the CNS and cause rapid loss of consciousness, it appears the victim is dead before they hit the ground, and then bleed to death before they wake up.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I think you are thinking in absolutes.
Heavy blows to the chest, right above the heart can actually cause fatal cardiac contusions btw. And wasted energy is not a myth. poking little holes all the way throug means you had the energy to punch a larger hole most of the way through instead. And the way bullets kill is by blood loss leading to cardiac failure. Larger wounds means more bleeding and faster incapacitation. What is a myth is the instant lights out hit. Only hits to the CNS have a chance to do that. What does happen is with heavier rifle calibers enough hydrostatic shock can (but not always) reach the CNS and cause rapid loss of consciousness, it appears the victim is dead before they hit the ground, and then bleed to death before they wake up.

We are talking about stopping threats with a pistol. Not shooting them and waiting 15 minutes for the threats to bleed out. That's why handguns suck because hydrostatic shock is not an issue with their slow velocity as compared to rifles.

As far as the size of the hole goes, you aren't going to stop dead in your tracks because the wound channel is .586 vs .355. One can argue that since a solid goes through both sides, it actually destroys more tissue than an expanded bullet that stops half way.

 

[Darth]

Exactly. What the fuck?

Previous to that I say, "You guys are blinded by expansion and so called energy dump/ stopping power. It's a myth. Energy dump does nothing. Expansion does nothing. It's penetration that kills.".

Yes. Leave that out.

So is:

"

My analogy was about energy alone. Reread my post.

BS, or is

"

Everything you used to convey some penetration and lethality without proper research..."

BS?

I apologies, being a revenuer now, my BS meter is sensitive.

 

[Marine Cpl]

So is:

"



BS, or is

"

Everything you used to convey some penetration and lethality without proper research..."

BS?

I apologies, being a revenuer now, my BS meter is sensitive.

[/QUOTE]
I don't know what you are saying. I merely said that energy or expansion doesn't kill. Penetration does.

Then you went off on your emoji tangent with jokes.

 

[4excal]

 

[Darth]

I don't know what you are saying. I merely said that energy or expansion doesn't kill. Penetration does.

Then you went off on your emoji tangent with jokes.

I know I'm not a DR, (or a fake DR like some on here...

Chiropractors are not MDs. ...)

, but I'm running out of patience.

 

[Marine Cpl]

but I'm running out of patience.

You should go beat down a prisoner and take out your frustrations then hit the panic button and wait for the cavalry then.

 

[Darth]

I know I'm not a DR, (or a fake DR like some on here...

Chiropractors are not MDs. ...)

, but I'm running out of patience.

You should go beat down a prisoner and take out your frustrations then got the panic button and wait for the cavalry then.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't issued one.

But in the facility, I avoid COs like I avoid cops.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

What's worse? Being stabbed with a smooth knife or... that same knife with nasty barbs on it and it being twisted as it goes in? Let's say they both hit vitals.

 

[Marine Cpl]

What's worse? Being stabbed with a smooth knife or... that same knife with nasty barbs on it and it being twisted as it goes in? Let's say they both hit vitals.

That's an excellent analogy. In that case, they'd both so the same job.

If they both reached your heart the result would be the same. You'd look at your attacker, slump to your knees, and die shortly within seconds or a minute.

If the barbed knife didn't reach your heart however but instead stopped short and got lodged in your rib cage, you'd still have fight left in you. You wouldn't die in seconds.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Ok let's be more specific. Say it's a heart shot. We know that hollow points tend to veer off coarse and shred(ballistic gel shows us this). Would it be worse to have a tiny hole in the heart or a slightly bigger hole in the heart and a perforation (possibly completely severed piece of the heart)? And what if no vitals are hit and just muscle tissue?

Keep in mind every second counts. Correct?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Ok let's be more specific. Say it's a heart shot. We know that hollow points tend to veer off coarse and shred(ballistic gel shows us this). Would it be worse to have a tiny hole in the heart or a slightly bigger hole in the heart and a perforation (possibly completely severed piece of the heart)? And what if no vitals are hit and just muscle tissue?

Keep in mind every second counts. Correct?

A .40 hole vs a .60 hole in the heart makes no difference.

If no vitals are hit, a .40 hole vs a .60 hole makes no difference. Either way you bleed the same. You aren't going to be gushing more blood because the hole is 2 or so millimeters larger. That's not how wounds work.

So answer this. Let's say a hollow point at .60 only travels halfway through your body as it's designed to do. Would the solid bullet at .40 that passes completely thorough both sides destroy more tissue? What about that same hollow point at .60 that only stops a 1/4 of the way through because it went through a shoulder and the solid bullet at .40 made it through the shoulder and out the other shoulder?

In those 2 scenarios, which bullet destroyed more tissue?

But regardless, tissue destruction doesn't stop a threat unless that destruction is an artery and even then it takes minutes. By stop a threat I mean put his lights out as fast as possible. You can fight back if all you are doing is bleeding. Especially if it isn't an artery you are bleeding from. Putting his lights out can only happen if the vitals are shut down. To shut down vitals, they have to be hit each and every time no matter what barrier is in the way.

There was never bullet penetration failures on human bodies when police used solids in .38 and the military used solids in .45 ACP and 9mm.