The Big Story on the Army’s Modular Handgun is the Ammo: Hollow Points!

[AK68]

The Big Story on the Army’s Modular Handgun is the Ammo: Hollow Points! | SOFREP

With XM-17 pistol, the Army has quietly expanded use of hollow point ammunition to regular troops. This is justified by Army lawyers who argue that asymmetric warfare has changed conventional legal standards. Citing the international law principles of preventing excessive collateral effects and protection of non-combatants, they claim that expanding bullets transfer most of their energy into a target and usually do not over penetrate.

 

[stuck in ny]

Open pandora's box, idiots.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If energy killed rather than penetration to vitals on low energy pistol rounds, the FBI agents in Miami would be alive today.

Bad move considering that not all enemies will be wearing t-shirts. Some may actually be wearing magazines or rifles slung on their chests.

 

[Podmonkey]

If energy killed rather than penetration to vitals on low energy pistol rounds, the FBI agents in Miami would be alive today.

Bad move considering that not all enemies will be wearing t-shirts. Some may actually be wearing magazines or rifles slung on their chests.

9mm FMJ is renown for its poor terminal effect, hollowpoints on the other hand have been shown to be adequate. I think this is a good move. 9mm ball ammo is next to useless.

 

[Shadow2]

I hope this means they will be selling off a ton of surplus 9mm on the cheap

 

[Marine Cpl]

9mm FMJ is renown for its poor terminal effect, hollowpoints on the other hand have been shown to be adequate. I think this is a good move. 9mm ball ammo is next to useless.

Saying 9mm ball is next to useless is kind of ignorant Pod. Do you know how many people have died or had one shot stops when vitals were hit with 9mm ball in the history of the cartridge?

Let me ask you a question. Was the .38 Special 158 gr semi wadcutter known for having a really poor terminal effect? How about the .357 Magnum when using solid bullets?

Was the 9mm Silvertip hollow point that penetrated 11.5 inches known for its terminal effect when it stopped 2 inches from the perps heart after going through an arm expanding and re-entering his chest while expanded? Did all that energy immediately kill him when it stopped short of his heart?

There are times when hollow points are better. Sure. Not when barriers are concerned and extreme penetration is needed.

 

[togmaster]

They should go back to 45 ACP

 

[Marine Cpl]

They should go back to 45 ACP

Less capacity, more recoil, less penetration.

 

[Podmonkey]

Saying 9mm ball is next to useless is kind of ignorant Pod. Do you know how many people have died or had one shot stops when vitals were hit with 9mm ball in the history of the cartridge?

Let me ask you a question. Was the .38 Special 158 gr semi wadcutter known for having a really poor terminal effect? How about the .357 Magnum when using solid bullets?

Was the 9mm Silvertip hollow point that penetrated 11.5 inches known for its terminal effect when it stopped 2 inches from the perps heart after going through an arm expanding and re-entering his chest while expanded? Did all that energy immediately kill him when it stopped short of his heart?

There are times when hollow points are better. Sure. Not when barriers are concerned and extreme penetration is needed.

However you want to wrap it up Hollowpoints are an upgrade over regular ball ammo, especially in 9mm. Are the using silver tips?
If barrier penetration is whats required Army personel has far better tools at hand than a pistol. Therfore hard barrier pen is irrelevant in a military sidearm.

Also, many have been killed by the humble .22lr but that does not mean its a good tool for the job. It just means many have been shot with a .22lr. Same argument applies to 9mm ball, which is inadequate.
Wadcutter ammo has some evidence to support improved terminal effect, but not as great as hollowpoints.

 

[Marine Cpl]

However you want to wrap it up Hollowpoints are an upgrade over regular ball ammo, especially in 9mm. Are the using silver tips?
If barrier penetration is whats required Army personel has far better tools at hand than a pistol. Therfore hard barrier pen is irrelevant in a military sidearm.

That I agree with. Rifles would be used. If you ask me, pistols should be dumped entirely and troops that need something more compact should be issued M4's with 10 inch barrels or something even more compact like a bullpup with a 10 inch barrel at an overall length of 20 inches.

Now back to the whole hollow points idea. No they wouldn't use Silver Tips that penetrate 11.5 inches. They'd probably go with something a little better that penetrates 12 or 13 inches like most hollow points do now. Not much of an upgrade if you ask me.

Expansion is great if it penetrates enough. If it doesn't, it isn't so great is it?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Also, many have been killed by the humble .22lr but that does not mean its a good tool for the job. It just means many have been shot with a .22lr. Same argument applies to 9mm ball, which is inadequate.
Wadcutter ammo has some evidence to support improved terminal effect, but not as great as hollowpoints.

That's not a good comparison. Not at all. A solid 9mm bullet will reach vitals from any angle while a .22lr will not. Before hollow points were popular, no one complained of poor terminal effect with ball or flat pointed ammo. In fact any hunter that knows his weight in salt will use flat pointed ammo for larger game.

It wasn't until hollow points were popular and adopted by law enforcement that we saw multiple accounts of inadequate penetration leading to the 10mm, the .40, and back full circle to the 9mm.

The most popular law enforcement round is the Hornady Critical Duty that penetrates 22 inches in gel and expands from .355 to a whopping .400 and change. (The size of a 40 S&W FMJ) It's chosen for one reason. Sufficient penetration after defeating barriers. You don't get that with large expanding ammo all the time.

 

[Podmonkey]

That's not a good comparison. Not at all. A solid 9mm bullet will reach vitals from any angle while a .22lr will not. Before hollow points were popular, no one complained of poor terminal effect with ball or flat pointed ammo. In fact any hunter that knows his weight in salt will use flat pointed ammo for larger game.

It wasn't until hollow points were popular and adopted by law enforcement that we saw multiple accounts of inadequate penetration leading to the 10mm, the .40, and back full circle to the 9mm.

The most popular law enforcement round is the Hornady Critical Duty that penetrates 22 inches in gel and expands from .355 to a whopping .400 and change. It's chosen for one reason. Sufficient penetration after defeating barriers. You don't get that with large expanding ammo all the time.

You missed my point.
You brought up 9mm ball havung killed many people, which it doubtless has.
I cintend that is a bit of a strawman argument and used the 22lr as an argumentative comparison not a ballistic one: 22lr has killed many-9mm ball has killed many, neither are ideal regardless.
The reason 9mm has killed as many as it has is simply due to the vast quantites that have been fired off throughout history.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You missed my point.
You brought up 9mm ball havung killed many people, which it doubtless has.
I cintend that is a bit of a strawman argument and used the 22lr as an argumentative comparison not a ballistic one: 22lr has killed many-9mm ball has killed many, neither are ideal regardless.
The reason 9mm has killed as many as it has is simply due to the vast quantites that have been fired off throughout history.

Ok. Let me rephrase it since you technically have a point. The 9mm since it's inception in FMJ has killed a lot of people when employed as a police caliber or a military caliber.

The same can be said with hollow points if you want to count vast quantities.

 

[C3D]

Does this mean they will be allowed in New Jersey?

 

[Podmonkey]

Ok. Let me rephrase it since you technically have a point. The 9mm since it's inception in FMJ has killed a lot of people when employed as a police caliber or a military caliber.

The same can be said with hollow points if you want to count vast quantities.

You just like arguing for the sake of it, don't you?

Hollowpoint pistol ammunition is demonstrably better than FMJ ammo.

But we all know what you really want you say: You want military adoption of your beloved copper solid rounds.
And I'd actually like that too if such mass adoption lead to competitive pricing for these types of rounds.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You just like arguing for the sake of it, don't you?

Hollowpoint pistol ammunition is demonstrably better than FMJ ammo.

But we all know what you really want you say: You want military adoption of your beloved copper solid rounds.
And I'd actually like that too if such mass adoption lead to competitive pricing for these types of rounds.

You got me pegged. Yes. I like to talk about bullets. I could argue that all day. It's better than some of the stuff people like to argue about here on a gun forum that even isn't gun related.

Now back to the hollow points. Yes. They are better. But only if they penetrate enough. They don't in all cases with pistol ammunition. And when they do, they barely expand like the Critical Duty. That's why I don't like them.

I'd rather have the penetration than a hollow point that expands beautifully but doesn't reach a vital.

For example. If I I try to shoot a monstrously fat guy (not you) wearing a thick leather jacket in a red truck through the side door where the bullet goes through the door, slows down, enters his arm through one side of a leather jacket, expands in his arm, exits his arm while expanded and through the other side of the leather jacket, slows down some more, enters his chest cavity while expanded through a leather jacket again and has enough steam to punch through his skin and ribcage but falls short of vitals due to the monstrously fat guy having 3 times the tissue of a regular guy. Now add a fleece and t-shirt and a flannel to the mix.

That's why I like solid bullets.

 

[Acer-m14]

damn ,.. down to basics ... LEAD kills .. just let it fly .. lol ..
"Citing the international law principles of preventing excessive collateral effects and protection of non-combatants, they claim that expanding bullets transfer most of their energy into a target and usually do not over penetrate."
but random bombing at war with 500 pounders was ok back in the day and should have never stopped .. oh that was old school and worked .. now we have to shoot snowflake loads .. its the Army .. its war time . i really sure Isis does not give a FK what they shoot ..

 

[kev74]

@Willjr75 ... Any explanation for why almost every law enforcement agency, special forces and civilian instructors use and/or recommend the use of hollow points if they're inadequate? There are a lot of highly regarded people out there who keep their handguns loaded with hollow points. What are they all missing?

 

[Marine Cpl]

@Willjr75 ... Any explanation for why almost every law enforcement agency, special forces and civilian instructors use and/or recommend the use of hollow points if they're inadequate? There are a lot of highly regarded people out there who keep their handguns loaded with hollow points. What are they all missing?

Police. Because the FBI does it. Liability issues because of over-penetration is a concern. Because hollow points work 90 percent of the time.

Civilian Instructors. Because the police do it.

Special Forces. Because they like going against the grain. Personal weapons, their own uniforms consisting of mixed matched camos, beards, and because the police do it.

Why are police departments dumping the .40 and going to 9mm? Because the FBI did it.

Copy catting is the most common denominator. That's why you do it. That's why most police departments do it. Most chiefs of police know nothing of ballistics when selecting a caliber or duty load. Some have biases on calibers, brand, ect.

The Winchester Silvertip failed the FBI. It has a penetration depth of 11.5 inches in gel. They went to the 10mm but scraped it due to too much recoil so they got the .40 and everyone copied. Now they are going back to 9mm and everyone is slowly copying. New ammo just goes a few inches more in gel. 11.5 inches with the Silvertip vs 12 or 13 inches in most cases on modern hollow points. Hmmmm.

Then you have some police departments issuing 9mm Critical Duty that expands to .400 and change which is no bigger than .40 S&W ball but penetrates barriers better and penetrates in gel to 22 inches. Why?

Why not just use a .40 S&W FMJ and be done with it if they want a 9mm round that under-expands to .40 and over-penetrates a body without a barrier but still want a round with limited expansion and increased penetration after penetrating a barrier just in case?

 

[oc shooter]

are we still honoring the Geneva convention? if we are than aren't hollow points a no no. seems to me the military is becoming as lawless as a sanctuary city!!!

 

[Marine Cpl]

are we still honoring the Geneva convention? if we are than aren't hollow points a no no. seems to me the military is becoming as lawless as a sanctuary city!!!

It's the Hague Convention that we never were a part of. All nonsense anyway. You can't use hollow points but you can shoot a guy in a building with a Javeline rocket, grenade, or a .50 cal.