The latest 224 caliber round.

[Acer-m14]

The Ugly:
- That 1300 yards claim is not really that accurate. We shoudl pull out ballistics with real data
and then see if we can make it to 1100 yards but even then what? There is not much left
in the small bullets other than paper punching and perhaps kill some chipmunks for those
who can hit them.

Agree there .. last week i read in a shooting magazine who was working on a load , can't remember the cal , my bud has the pile of magazines now , the guy actually put his chronograph out at like 300 600 800 yrds .. can't remember what it was just that it way the hell out there to get the speed of the bullet at long distance ... to confirm his testing

 

[Podmonkey]

Agree there .. last week i read in a shooting magazine who was working on a load , can't remember the cal , my bud has the pile of magazines now , the guy actually put his chronograph out at like 300 600 800 yrds .. can't remember what it was just that it way the hell out there to get the speed of the bullet at long distance ... to confirm his testing

Chronying at 800 yards sounds like a great way to shoot your chronograph to me.

 

[GuyMontag]

I know Federal is in the business of making ammo, but this is going nowhere IMO.

6mm is where you end up if you're truly interested in options/performance, and most already know it.

 

[Podmonkey]

I know Federal is in the business of making ammo, but this is going nowhere IMO.

6mm is where you end up if you're truly interested in options/performance, and most already know it.

We gonna start seeing more commercial 6mm then? There is really nothing out there right now besides the .243 Winchester.

 

[meketrefe]

We gonna start seeing more commercial 6mm then? There is really nothing out there right now besides the .243 Winchester.

For a compact action you have the popular 6mm BR. With a 1:8 twist and grendel magazines one can load up to 6-7 rounds for hunting
or target and it runs great in the AR15. This will need someone to chamber the barrel for you with a S800 style bolt and extension.
You also have the 6mm PPC but that is pretty exclusive in terms of ammo makers. They are small shops that provide custom loads for
target competition. Both are Bench Rest match winners in score competition and both work with the AR.

But for a simple one the best would be the 6x45 that is a wildcat although lesbaers offers AR uppers and ammo for it. But it is so easy to
reload that is even easier than the 223 parent. The 6mm TCU same deal and it gives additional speed with 1gr-1.5gr extra capacity.

For the 308 Short action doesn't make much sense other than certain styles of target shooting. With plenty of 6.5 and 7mm bullets people are going to resort to those whether is target or actual hunting. Even the 308 itself has gotten some major advancements based on the new powders and bullets.

Now with 308 ARs in the same weight category of the AR15 not sure one would want to restrict themselves to the 243 although the 243 makes
a nice upper specially for those who already shoot that one from bolt action and want to use the same brass, dies, bullets and/or ammo.

 

[Marine Cpl]

The Ugly:
- That 1300 yards claim is not really that accurate. We should pull out ballistics with real data and then see if we can make it to 1100 yards but even then what? There is not much left
in the small bullets other than paper punching and perhaps kill some chipmunks for those
who can hit them.

I have no skin on this game. I'm just trying to learn. But wouldn't that bullet just pinhole like any other bullet going at 1000 yards going at about 800 to 900 fps or maybe even 1000 fps?

 

[GuyMontag]

We gonna start seeing more commercial 6mm then? There is really nothing out there right now besides the .243 Winchester.

It's happening, slowly, but more and more rifles are coming available with it as an option. Seekins is offering their HAVAK in it, Ruger's got the RPR and Hornday making ammo for it more will definitely follow. Far more interesting to me than the new Noslers, but to each his own.

 

[meketrefe]

I have no skin on this game. I'm just trying to learn. But wouldn't that bullet just pinhole like any other bullet going at 1000 yards going at about 800 to 900 fps or maybe even 1000 fps?

yes. that would be only target and small pests for those who can hit them at long distance in the unlikely scenario they would be using a rifle and round like this.

 

[Podmonkey]

For a compact action you have the popular 6mm BR. With a 1:8 twist and grendel magazines one can load up to 6-7 rounds for hunting
or target and it runs great in the AR15. This will need someone to chamber the barrel for you with a S800 style bolt and extension.
You also have the 6mm PPC but that is pretty exclusive in terms of ammo makers. They are small shops that provide custom loads for
target competition. Both are Bench Rest match winners in score competition and both work with the AR.

But for a simple one the best would be the 6x45 that is a wildcat although lesbaers offers AR uppers and ammo for it. But it is so easy to
reload that is even easier than the 223 parent. The 6mm TCU same deal and it gives additional speed with 1gr-1.5gr extra capacity.

For the 308 Short action doesn't make much sense other than certain styles of target shooting. With plenty of 6.5 and 7mm bullets people are going to resort to those whether is target or actual hunting. Even the 308 itself has gotten some major advancements based on the new powders and bullets.

Now with 308 ARs in the same weight category of the AR15 not sure one would want to restrict themselves to the 243 although the 243 makes
a nice upper specially for those who already shoot that one from bolt action and want to use the same brass, dies, bullets and/or ammo.

yes. that would be only target and small pests for those who can hit them at long distance in the unlikely scenario they would be using a rifle and round like this.

So what is the best 6mm round for, and I hate using this term, "tactical" use? I read a bit about the 6mm TCU and its seems the most oftem used loads involved 55gr or 80 gr bullets. At these weights we may as well stick to 5.56x45. What I want to see is a 6mm round that works well in an AR and launches heavy 6mm projectiles with extremely high BCs ar relatively moderate velocites around 2500 fps. I think this would provide a good balance between low recoil for high volume of controllable fire and long range performance.

 

[meketrefe]

Hi @Podmonkey
Thanks for keeping this topic alive for those who like firearms and ballistics discussions.
IMO before we talk about rounds and tactical uses, or what not,we should discuss bullets that is what really matters.
The issue with the 22 caliber is that you don't have too many hunting bullets when the weight of the animal gets to the medium-heavy type
of deal. We have some 62, 64, 70gr and even a couple of 75 grains that are bonded that can provide a decent level of momentum and consistency
and because of the speed of the round is very easy to shoot, accurate and people like it.

We know these characteristics of the bullets make it a great round to extend the range and killing power of other popular round that due to their
light for caliber and slow design are not as consistent like the 7.62x39, whisper/blackout and a few AR pistol rounds. At least the 7.62x39 has the case capacity to be reloaded and pumped with better bullets but it has been proven that light for caliber slow moving bullets are a no go for military use
and very limited in hunting range. That is why they were phased out from service.

What the 6mm provides is a huge assortment of bullets in the 60 to 100 grain bullet weights with the addition of some pretty good match high
BC bullets in the 95-115gr but more realistic in the 90-107gr for the AR as the 115gr are really geared towards F-class and larger casings.

But if we take lets say 6mm a 85gr speer hpbt hunting bullet or the Hornady 85gr bonded we get comparable ballistic coefficients to the best 75gr
22 caliber bullet and these can be lauched faster than the 223 even from compact barrels like 16 and 18" then you automatically increased the
range and power of the AR15 w/o much perceived impact in recoil or function. But one can do a lot more with some of the casings and 95 - 107gr
bullets.
Lets take this as a starting point and see what different options we have to send those bullets.

Cheap and easy and super accurate - 6x45L / 6mm TCU
==================================================
the 6x45L(slightly longer throat) and 6mm TCU work flawlesly from the AR15 standard bolts and magazines. This round using once fired
lake city brass or WCC or winchester simply run through the FL die and presto! you have a new caliber. Then the 85gr bullet above with
a BC slightly above G1=.4 can be pushed from a 20" AR to 2850fps using AA2230 and other powders. The advantage is that 5.56 brass
is virtually free, bullets are sometimes cheaper than the 223 and this gives a 25-30% increased performance w/o doing much.
It is also very accurate. The 6mm TCU can even be pumped a little further with 1gr. extra capacity. Nice and simple 6mm round that
can be used where the 22 is not legal to hunt.
This round can be loaded with 95 to 105gr rounds but one will have to either single feed or have a couple of magazines adapted either
gated or centerstack to be able to load much longer match bullets. Normally a small investment for those seeking 1000 yards or hunting
coyotes at 600-700 yards.
Rifles, Barrels dies and some ammo are available to buy online.

Also easy, pretty affordable too - 6mm-6.8 SPC
==========================================
The 6mm-6.8 is nothing but the 6.8 case necked down to 6mm. This will give you a great round and will provide 100 extra fps or more
with popular hunting bullets. The 95gr match bullets like the SMK, Berger and TMK will provide 1000 yards no problem and will shoot
a lot flatter and further than the Grendel. We are talking 2750fps form a 20" barrel that is not small potatoes.
If one is shooting the 6.8 for hunting that is a very good round for this one could use the same magazines, bolts and brass to easily
form the 6mm rounds. Once fired brass is cheap to buy online but cannot beat the 5.56 that can be found free. Again not a huge problem.
Barrels and dies can be found online under different names but essentially the same round.


A bit more involved but still attractive and great performer - 6mm Grendel
================================================================
the 6mm Grendel is nothing but the 6.5 Grendel case necked down to 6mm. there are dies and barrels available.
This one is pretty similar to the 6.8 in terms of performance but will work better with the longest bullets in standard magazines
up to 107gr. This can also put 100 to 150fps extra speed over the 6x45 and will shoot much flatter and longer than the parent 6.5 grendel.
The key here is to find robust bolts that are coming out now so they do not break like some Grendel have been doing and also
can be a bit finiky to tune like the parent Grendel but once you have a couple of magazines working fine and work your reloads
this becomes a very decent high power round. Some folks are using 24" barrels and competing in F-class matches with a very low
budget. Other bullets and sizes will be great for hunting and more realistic distances people use.


More complex for the AR15 - 6mm BR norma.
============================-===========
This cartridge needs no introduction. IT is the king of Bench Rest competition and with the right twist and bullet choices makes
a nice cartridge for target as well for hunting. 100gr bullet can be driven close to 243 Winchester speeds form 21"+ barrels.
The nice thing is that this one can put very decent speeds in the best 105-107 gr bullets that might reach 1400yards supersonic.
The drawback with this caliber is that it needs a special bolt that are hard to find, specially a good quality one and will also
need a 6.8 or grendel magazine that can only load up to 6-7 rounds before it starts to swell. I use this one and the 6.5BR so
I am telling you it is amazing and the magazine situation not a huge issue but this will not be a main stream type of caliber
and rather a high performing specialty upper.
The ammo is available from lapua, norma and others some world champion ammo in BR competition.
Of course one would get a dasher versoin fo the 6mmBR that is extra capacity and performance but that is too involved
even for Bench rest shooters so after overcoming the bolt situation the straight BR is pretty friendly.
Brass and ammo is expensive but lapua brass with some tendering and care will last a long time if one is not loading too
hot.

Military/Tactical
==================

IMO it doesn't get easier than the 6x45 or 6mm TCU and it gives the easiest increase in power to the AR with the least
amount of effort and cost many times cheaper than reloading the 223/5.56 itself.
In a different time this could have been the perfect service round and we would not have so many complaints about
the range and power.

But I also think the 6mm 6.8 could well be the perfect military / tactical round. Think about it, a 80-85gr lead free bullet
shot at 2850 to 2900fps with a ballistic coefficient in the high .4's even close to .5 will easily extend the range of the
AR15 to 800-900 yards. At 500 yards will have twice the power of the current service round and more speed so while
not optimal for hunting at those distances the Taliban will not be able to rely on those 500+ yards to remain safe
in the typical engagement. They will have to move well beyond the range of their most powerful 30 caliber machine
guns and the 6mm could still reach them with decent accuracy and still reduce soft targets past 800 yards.

This with a simple swap of 6.8 bolts and magazines and no much added weight. IMO the perfect MBR round.

We can provide some proof and ballistics charts if you want.

Think about it, a round that can shoot as flat as the best match bullets, can shoot further and flatter than the best
308 winchester and still deliver a lethal wound at those ranges while being good a short distance hard barrier
and tactical penetration. Of course needless to say, with hunting bullets will make a nice popular deer cartrige.

I believe that one should take the approach of choosing what is going to give me the necessary amount of speed
and energy at those extended ranges with the minimum amount of investment in terms of weight, powder, recoil
on the launching pad. The 6mm does this better than others.

Less is more in the end.

 

[Podmonkey]

Okay, I'm liking the 6mm-6.8 actually, but will such a round, particularly with heavy for caliber pills, exacerbate the 6.8's issue of deep seated bullets intruding on case capacity? Also for my (hypothetical) purposes we also have to consider recoil force and efficency out of short barrels as we know that military small arms a getting ever lighter and shorter. Which of the above would perform best in the current standard 14.5" barrel? What about SBRs as short as 10.5"? Which of these rounds would be most controllable in fully automatic fire in a light carbine?
Counterbalancing these requirements could this round also offer acceptable performance in light and general purpose machineguns, to include coax machine gun mounts for AFVs? What about suitability in precision semi auto DMR rifles? To this end which of the rounds you listed are the most scaleable? I think it's acceptable and reasonable to offer two loadings, one light and one heavy, in this one caliber so long as both loads are fully interchangeable across all small arms platforms. As an additional wrinkle lets throw out the AR15 compatibility requirement. We can assume any theoretical arm as long as it follows the trend of a light, compact selective fire weapon.

I don't think the 6mm TCU has the versatility I'm looking for.

 

[meketrefe]

I think 10.5 barrels are a waste no matter what caliber and unless one is considering straight wall pistol cartriges that sacrifice speed
in exchange for extra grain and ideally put some 180 to 200 grain. This is where the 35 gunner excels but a 458 socom, 50 beo and
similar will give a huge advantage otherwise is just wasting bullets and powder IMO.
But even with those unusual barrels modern ammunition even in 22 caliber performs better than some other ammo though to be very
popular and work best in those barrels like the rather anemic whisper/blackout. The nice thing about those is with subsonic ammo
and 160-200gr bullets but bullets in those grains that work well at slow impact speeds are very exclusive and expensive. That is why
the more reason for a true pistol caliber in 35 above.
But even in those small 10" and 14.5 barrels the 6.8 is king due to the assortment of small bullets from 80gr that can be launched
at very decent speeds. Though the 223R can put a 77-80gr bullet past 2500fps. not the same though but not too bad.
Again 14.5 and up is a different story then you are talking.

I think the 6x45 or 6TCU are so easy and inherently accurate that is why some folks would resort to them for most popular tasks but
with the longest bullets will run out of length and that is why the 6mm-6.8 is perfect for this.

recoil wise there is little difference with the 22, Grendel and 6.8. One might feel a bit more report but it is more subjective than
anything. In the end they are all pretty easy to shoot and super controllable in a machine gun or rapid fire. It is not like one has
to do a huge adjustment in this regard and should make it a mute point. if course you will have bit more something but that is
expected with heavier bullets. Yet again anyone even kids and petite women will be able to shoot it all day w/o any side effects.

The thing with the 6mm-6.8 is that is stupid easy too and could be made from the 6mm wasp using a 1:8 twist barrel. 6.8 bolts
and a couple of mags and you are shooting. The 6mm Grendel is also another option that can be found.

I am actually thinking about ordering a 6mm-6.8 with the 30 degree shoulder just to use a truck load of 6.8 brass that I might
enjoy more with the 6mm bullets because I have more of those 6mm bullets than any other caliber and the 6mm BR that I also
have is a bit more involved with the annealing and all that.

If we had enough interest from a few we could order a group buy like we did in the past. But what kind of versatility are
you looking for? Is this mainly hunting with occasional long range or want primary as 1300 yards target gun or what?
What is the weight of the animals you hunt? Any large mule deer or even large black bear?

I am asking because one should start selecting the bullets for their purpose and then from there decide on the casing, barrel,
etc... The bullet is the most important part the rest is just the means to delivering that mail.

 

[Podmonkey]

The really short barreled rifles such as the 10.5" are for specialized short range use, in the same roles submachine guns would be used. Indoors, vehicle mounted troops ect. Lost ballistic potential isn't of great concern at the close range these guns are used at. My interest in this is purely academic, the 5.56x45 does everything I need a centerfire rifle cartridge to do which is shooting recreational targets out to 300 yards and for illustrating to attackers why it was a very poor decision to select me as a target. My hypothetical requirement for this 6mm cartridge is as a joint 5.56x45/7.62x51 replacement, military use in other words.

 

[meketrefe]

Oh ok. I see. I think a very compact 6mm case would be a very good candidate.
As of today one could use a 6.8 necked down to 6mm or one could have a 223 case slightly blown and shortened so this
is more like a tcu 1mm shorter but a 6x45 will also do.
Ideally they could take the 223 case and lightly increase the diameter to lets say .385 that will make no significant difference
and provide just a couple of extra grains in a 42mm long case. with this size current bolts will work and current 30 round mags
will also work with 29 bullets or a small mod to take 30.

But lets take the 6.8 case as a donor just for the sake of the conversation and why this would make such a great cartridge.

I don't see 10.5 inches being practical and I was saying because no matter what cartridge is hard to make one be the best
with whatever size barrel. A 13" barrel is not much longer and it is closer to the point of maximum benefit.

But anyway, a 6mm round could be made to assure maximum performance from 10.5" barrels to 18" barrels. I think
it would be ideal to have two bullets one that would be the main battle round and the other specialized for long range
and soft targets that snipers could use.

The 6mm case should be able to put 80-85gr lead free bullet close to 3000 fps that will provide superior hard barrier
penetration and energy from the typical 16" barrel. The same round could be optimized to work close to 2900 fps
from a 14" barrel and not too bad from a 10" barrel giving superior power to almost anything available today in such
small package. That 80-85gr lead free bullet will be similar to the 62gr M855A1 construction with a hard tip arrowhead
and with a ballistic coefficient a tad above .4 possibly .44 or something like that.

This will increase the performance in all scenarios and move the effective range of the little round to 800 meters or more
where it will provide slightly better trajectories than the best 223 rounds today and deliver more momentum. not huge
but enough to kill at that distance. We are talking about impact speeds falling below 1800fps and still be effective that
the M855A1 design has proven to do so one should expect the same and even better with the few extra grains at even
longer distances.

then we will have a match bullet of 100-105 grains with a ballistic coefficient above .5 that will reach 1200yards supersonic
and able to kill at those distances with soft targets.

This can put a very decent 100gr to 105 grain bullet above 2700fps and will shoot with very similar trajectory to the
best 308 Winchester round one could shoot. Less energy but also less deflection and less chance for error vs. the 308
and this from a 20" AR15. Still this round could be shot from a 24" bolt action with a 100 to 150fps gain in speed
and be even longer ranges or deliver more energy.

These rounds will work great from current firearms with the simple change in bolt heads (if needed by the 6.8) and
or magazine upgrade but with the same reliability. Also the firepower will not be compromised with just a fractional
increase of weight x nr. of rounds so the benefit in range and killing power will easily pay off for the tad extra weight
vs. other more powerful but also heavier options.

makes sense?

we should make a new 6mm SPC and try it out. IMO the 95gr TMK is a very nice round for long range.

Long range 6mm SPC...

 

[Podmonkey]

Yeah, I concur. 6mm SPC it is. All we need is a dedicated, heavily loaded AP load for machine guns (I'd drop the interchangeability requirment for this one load) and I think we'd be there.

But on the topic of SBRs. They certainly do sacrifice a fair amount of ballistic performance but there are times where shaving off every possible inch of length is very desirable. I can rigorously attest to this as a former vehicle mounted solider (self propelled artillery and attendant vehicles, namely the M270A1 MLRS rocket launcher and the M985 HEMTT cargo truck) I was initially issued an M16A2 and for use in and around vehicles it was an absolute disaster. The size of it interfered with our operations to the point that the rifles were typically left in the vehicles, which is obviously no good. Even when issued an M4 in Korea I still found it rather cumbersome. If I had been given the choice to pick a weapon from the entire NATO inventory I think I would have gone with a P90. I bet that little thing would sling up to my back as tight and slick as a camelback water bladder. For any solider that does not directly fight the enemy with his personal arm weight and size are the most relavant characteristics. Look at the overwhelming popularity of the M1 carbine for example. The Garand was superior in everyway in terms of performance yet even some infantry soliders prefered the handier carbine. Logistics will always trump tactics by a country mile.

 

[meketrefe]

Soldiers preferred the handier carbine. Logistics will always trump tactics by a country mile.

I know what you are saying but most folks in regular units will rather not to give up power.
The problem is the armies of the world cannot make a firearm for every situation.
I worked with a 16" H&K and if you were a paratrooper folks will get a Cetme L type with collapsible stock or a more modern H&K.
The problem with the AR for this is the buffer tube so collapsible goes only so far. At the same time the buffer tube / operating
mechanism makes for a more accurate and potentially lighter firearm people like.
But I think for a do it all is where the bull-pup comes into place where one can get the benefit of even longer 18" barrels w/o sacrificing lightness
and portability nor performance.
We know speed is key so one will have to decide where to trade off. It is always a world of trade offs.
Special operations and special purpose aside main infantry right now are looking for the extra reach in a handy carbine.
Something that is too short is going to limit the effective range.
Even the 308w doesn't make much sense form a 16" barrel. The ammo had to be reformulated
to be more effective like the brits did with the 155gr for their brand new LMT platform so everyone enjoyed
the upgrade. But then other things will suffer.

Again, trade offs.

The 6mm-6.8 or something very similar seems like a prefect MBR round to me.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I know what you are saying but most folks in regular units will rather not to give up power.
The problem is the armies of the world cannot make a firearm for every situation.
I worked with a 16" H&K and if you were a paratrooper folks will get a Cetme L type with collapsible stock or a more modern H&K.
The problem with the AR for this is the buffer tube so collapsible goes only so far. At the same time the buffer tube / operating
mechanism makes for a more accurate and potentially lighter firearm people like.
But I think for a do it all is where the bull-pup comes into place where one can get the benefit of even longer 18" barrels w/o sacrificing lightness
and portability nor performance.
We know speed is key so one will have to decide where to trade off. It is always a world of trade offs.
Special operations and special purpose aside main infantry right now are looking for the extra reach in a handy carbine.
Something that is too short is going to limit the effective range.
Even the 308w doesn't make much sense form a 16" barrel. The ammo had to be reformulated
to be more effective like the brits did with the 155gr for their brand new LMT platform so everyone enjoyed
the upgrade. But then other things will suffer.

Again, trade offs.

The 6mm-6.8 or something very similar seems like a prefect MBR round to me.

I'm not entirely sure about that. You ask any Soldier or Marine if he'd rather carry an M16A4 vs an M4 and most will say the M4 all the time. Even Spec OPs are seen in Afghanistan with M240's with short barrels. Weight is a big thing on Recon missions in the mountains.

Most Soldiers or Marines have no clue about ballistics. They don't even know what grain their bullets are. Soldiers and Marines aren't weapons experts.

Before my unit deployed to Afghanistan (I didn't go on that one), many couldn't even qualify with the M4 without going through the course various times. I had to tell a bunch of them to only engage the pop up targets that were 200 yards and below because they were wasting their rounds on the 300 yard ones, missing, running out of rounds and going UNQ.

 

[meketrefe]

I'm not entirely sure about that. You ask any Soldier or Marine if he'd rather carry an M16A4 vs an M4 and most will say the M4 all the time. Even Spec OPs are seen in Afghanistan with M240's with short barrels. Weight is a big thing on Recon missions in the mountains.
Most Soldiers or Marines have no clue about ballistics. They don't even know what grain their bullets are. Soldiers and Marines aren't weapons experts.

Most infantry man like something that is light but they also hate to be shorthanded for the task ahead.

I agree the Army might not be ballistics experts but marines have to go through a marksman training both theoretical and practical and while is not
for the super high skilled ballistics you discuss some pretty decent fundamentals. I had to qualify for 500 meters myself with both with the 308 and
5.56 and not sure if that is still the same today but at least with the 5.56 regular marines w/o any specialization is a must. I am sure every country
and every army has different standards but there are some pretty basic things you cannot afford not to know.
It was not long ago the US Marines moved from a 20" barrel to the shorter 16" M4 and while the change at short ranges is less obvious it can be
clearly noticed at maximum ranges. I have been sharing experiences with a couple of Marine armorers and they tell me some of the discussions
they are having among them and not just in terms of operation and maintenance but also ballistics. They know the swap is not coming soon but
also more troops are resorting to the 308 in Afganistan and Iraq while a more permanent solution is being developed.

Everyone wants a shorter barrel but anything below 16" is going to suffer. 14.5" is about the bare minimum but even with those barrels the
range for hard barrier penetration goes down drastically. Soldiers do not study those but they know their round is already limited in middle east
scenarios like Afghanistan and anything shorter even limits the round more. That why they are bringing larger guns and 308.

It doesn't matter what Army / country this is something everyone spending substantial time over there is going to agree. The Taliban
keep popping they AKS but they also learned the tactics to move beyond the effective range so we need a longer arm to be effective.

This is not speculation and it is very well documented in many military articles and forums. Otherwise the current round and even shorter guns
are pretty effective in many other scenarios.

 

[Robin]

More Army troops getting enhanced M14 rifles - Guns.com
Not sure how old this article is, but that is my old outfit being referenced and it seems like six or more years ago the equipped the entire battalion with m14.
Robin

 

[Marine Cpl]

Most infantry man like something that is light but they also hate to be shorthanded for the task ahead.

I agree the Army might not be ballistics experts but marines have to go through a marksman training both theoretical and practical and while is not
for the super high skilled ballistics you discuss some pretty decent fundamentals. I had to qualify for 500 meters myself with both with the 308 and
5.56 and not sure if that is still the same today but at least with the 5.56 regular marines w/o any specialization is a must. I am sure every country
and every army has different standards but there are some pretty basic things you cannot afford not to know.
It was not long ago the US Marines moved from a 20" barrel to the shorter 16" M4 and while the change at short ranges is less obvious it can be
clearly noticed at maximum ranges. I have been sharing experiences with a couple of Marine armorers and they tell me some of the discussions
they are having among them and not just in terms of operation and maintenance but also ballistics. They know the swap is not coming soon but
also more troops are resorting to the 308 in Afganistan and Iraq while a more permanent solution is being developed.

Everyone wants a shorter barrel but anything below 16" is going to suffer. 14.5" is about the bare minimum but even with those barrels the
range for hard barrier penetration goes down drastically. Soldiers do not study those but they know their round is already limited in middle east
scenarios like Afghanistan and anything shorter even limits the round more. That why they are bringing larger guns and 308.

It doesn't matter what Army / country this is something everyone spending substantial time over there is going to agree. The Taliban
keep popping they AKS but they also learned the tactics to move beyond the effective range so we need a longer arm to be effective.

This is not speculation and it is very well documented in many military articles and forums. Otherwise the current round and even shorter guns
are pretty effective in many other scenarios.

It's still the same in the Marines as far as qualifying at 500.

You were in at a time of a transition from the M14 to the M16. The Marines of that time didn't want to go smaller. It wasn't because of ballistics. It was because of the whole plastic Mattel smaller bullet manly thing. It wasn't due to knowledge. I can say that the Marines of today don't think like that. I served 6 years with them. They want the smallest possible and envy the Army with their tacticool M4 while they still have A2 stocks.

By the way. Semper Fi.

 

[Marine Cpl]

More Army troops getting enhanced M14 rifles - Guns.com
Not sure how old this article is, but that is my old outfit being referenced and it seems like six or more years ago the equipped the entire battalion with m14.
Robin

Those are usually outfitted to Designated Marksman which are 1 per Squad. They aren't outfitting every soldier with one.

 

[meketrefe]

I think the A2 served well his time. I love the 5.56 that is also pretty misunderstood but since we were doing day dreaming that is
why I started to talk about the 6mm and something in the lines of the 6.8 case. That is based on my humble understanding of
how the round should use and considering I have to carry ammo for me or others and how much ammo weights when we get
into the 308. The weight can be spread with the unit but still folks do not like to be lacking too much firepower. Machine gunners
w/o a light round are going to suffer the most.

 

[meketrefe]

Those are usually outfitted to Designated Marksman which are 1 per Squad. They aren't outfitting every soldier with one.

But they are changing the tactics too right? Having more people in the squad that can do multitasking in a support role is a good thing.
Again, in the current scenarios is more like a necessity. The distance has been imposed on us by the terrain and enemies tactics.

 

[meketrefe]

They need to hire @Podmonkey and I as consultants so we can present to them the new 6mm SPC!!!

 

[Marine Cpl]

But they are changing the tactics too right? Having more people in the squad that can do multitasking in a support role is a good thing.
Again, in the current scenarios is more like a necessity. The distance has been imposed on us by the terrain and enemies tactics.

Yep. The Marines have been doing a lot of changing. Their 0351's are no longer just anti-armor. They are now trained in basic demo and take up Combat Engineering roles too.

Their Saw Gunners are also Designated Marksman I hear too.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Don't get me wrong. I get what you are saying and a better round is a better round. There is no arguing that. I just don't agree that Soldiers and Marines know ballistics. That isn't taught. When I was in, I didn't know the difference between 55 to 62 gr. I was a young kid.

 

[meketrefe]

Don't get me wrong. I get what you are saying and a better round is a better round. There is no arguing that. I just don't agree that Soldiers and Marines know ballistics. That isn't taught. When I was in, I didn't know the difference between 55 to 62 gr. I was a young kid.

I think with the introduction of new tactics and optics there is an intro to ballistics even in the basic training.
not that you are going to run ballistics tables and checks but we correlate trajectory to target sizes including drift that
in practical terms is the same. Everyone got pushed that direction because it gave a huge leap in effectiveness
vs bare iron sights. The first Iraq war was a huge trigger for major changes in range and tactics.
Now that we have a better understanding and we are more effective we ran out of bullet as we increased distance.
One thing led to another.

 

[dsdmmat]

Don't get me wrong. I get what you are saying and a better round is a better round. There is no arguing that. I just don't agree that Soldiers and Marines know ballistics. That isn't taught. When I was in, I didn't know the difference between 55 to 62 gr. I was a young kid.

All aviation door gunners (Army anyway) are taught internal and external ballistics. Firing from an airborne platform is a lot different than firing from the ground. Though they are not taught about "energy" because it irrelevant to the mission at hand.

 

[Podmonkey]

As an artilleryman I had to learn a lot about external ballistics.

 

[Podmonkey]

They need to hire @Podmonkey and I as consultants so we can present to them the new 6mm SPC!!!

We need a better name than 6mm SPC though. Something less derivative but still descriptive and with a bit of marketing zazz. Something along the lines of the 6mm Universal, given its intended role of replacing the light/heavy scheme of 5.56/7.62. But we need a more exciting and technical sounding metric to stick in front of the Universal part. 6mm is too plain.