Things are heating up in the Donbass

[Drinkthekoolaid]

If the Russian invasion of Ukraine was justified to keep NATO troops off of Russia's border, then a NATO invasion would be justified now to keep Russian troops off of the NATO border.

You can't have it both ways.

My opinion is that an invasion of a sovereign country because you don't like who they are allying with is never justified outside of a decared war. This would include the bay of pigs in Cuba, but that was a long time ago.

Furthermore, Russia's excuse that they need a neutral buffer is ridiculous. What does that buy them ? They are so outmatched by NATO that the concept of them mounting a serious defense is laughable. They could demilizarize all of continental Europe and it would maybe buy them a week if NATO got aggressive. Ukraine wouldn't give them more than a few hours.

Imaging Guatamala claiming they were justified in invading Mexico because they needed a buffer against the US LOL.

IMO if Ukraine had the nuclear stockpile of France or the UK they would have been the most powerful military in Europe. They have been fighting like the most battle hardened troops in Europe. They were much better equipped and trained than we realized.

I don't envision the rest of NATO (some not all) fighting with such resolve.

Russia is absolutely getting a bloody nose, but they are gaining very valuable modern warfare peer level combat experience.

The US and NATOs recent experience is fighting 3rd rate armies and goat fuckers with complete air and logistics superiority.




I might be an oddball in this thread because I genuinely feel and sympathize with the Ukrainian people. I do. However I also feel Russia is being demonized far more than they deserve to be. I feel they genuinely felt backed into a corner and I can't say that if my country wasn't in their shoes I wouldn't feel the exact same way. I try to make impartial fair judgements and what I see is the US and NATO have been covertly goading this war along and continually fanning the flames.

The US and NATO are essentially throwing money and munitions into Ukraine to weaken Russia but in reality it's only causing more suffering for the Ukrainian people because they are being decimated now, their cities in ruins and their economy will be in shambles. We are fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian. I am honestly to the point where if I am objectively looking at the situation fairly, Russia is entitled to and arguably should be shooting down NATO and US reconnaissance jets that are directly assisting Ukraine to kill Russians. Thats a very dangerous line we are walking.

I don't want ww3. But at the rate things are going we keep doubling down and are being pulled in by mission creep. It's almost like we are trying to get pulled into the war directly. That's sick. It's like we're trying to get Russia to shoot down one of our planes so we can get involved. Putin keeps telling us not to cross a red line and we keep sticking our toes over it each time. It's like a trespasser in your yard and you keep telling him not 1 step closer and he keeps coming, sooner or later you shoot him but who knows when that threshold is.

The world is not better off for this war. The east and west have decoupled, global commodities and supply chains are shot, there will be new alliances, the USD demise is likely accelerated etc...


And I keep asking myself is it worth it?

Was Russia even a threat to us? Seriously if Russia over ran Ukraine in 2 weeks as expected the majority of their country would still be in tact and life would more or less be back to normal. Maybe they would have established a peace agreement by now and Ukraine proper would still be Ukraine and the Donbas annexed into Russia. Likely hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians would still be alive and likely this conflict ends there. Now Russia probably can't stop. It's like of you're playing poker and you get pot committed you keep putting your chips in because now you can't afford to lose.

What the hell are we doing?

 

[spat]

IMO if Ukraine had the nuclear stockpile of France or the UK they would have been the most powerful military in Europe. They have been fighting like the most battle hardened troops in Europe. They were much better equipped and trained than we realized.

I don't envision the rest of NATO (some not all) fighting with such resolve.

Russia is absolutely getting a bloody nose, but they are gaining very valuable modern warfare peer level combat experience.

The US and NATOs recent experience is fighting 3rd rate armies and goat fuckers with complete air and logistics superiority.




I might be an oddball in this thread because I genuinely feel and sympathize with the Ukrainian people. I do. However I also feel Russia is being demonized far more than they deserve to be. I feel they genuinely felt backed into a corner and I can't say that if my country wasn't in their shoes I wouldn't feel the exact same way. I try to make impartial fair judgements and what I see is the US and NATO have been covertly goading this war along and continually fanning the flames.

The US and NATO are essentially throwing money and munitions into Ukraine to weaken Russia but in reality it's only causing more suffering for the Ukrainian people because they are being decimated now, their cities in ruins and their economy will be in shambles. We are fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian. I am honestly to the point where if I am objectively looking at the situation fairly, Russia is entitled to and arguably should be shooting down NATO and US reconnaissance jets that are directly assisting Ukraine to kill Russians. Thats a very dangerous line we are walking.

I don't want ww3. But at the rate things are going we keep doubling down and are being pulled in by mission creep. It's almost like we are trying to get pulled into the war directly. That's sick. It's like we're trying to get Russia to shoot down one of our planes so we can get involved. Putin keeps telling us not to cross a red line and we keep sticking our toes over it each time. It's like a trespasser in your yard and you keep telling him not 1 step closer and he keeps coming, sooner or later you shoot him but who knows when that threshold is.

The world is not better off for this war. The east and west have decoupled, global commodities and supply chains are shot, there will be new alliances, the USD demise is likely accelerated etc...


And I keep asking myself is it worth it?

Was Russia even a threat to us? Seriously if Russia over ran Ukraine in 2 weeks as expected the majority of their country would still be in tact and life would more or less be back to normal. Maybe they would have established a peace agreement by now and Ukraine proper would still be Ukraine and the Donbas annexed into Russia. Likely hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians would still be alive and likely this conflict ends there. Now Russia probably can't stop. It's like of you're playing poker and you get pot committed you keep putting your chips in because now you can't afford to lose.

What the hell are we doing?

We will quickly have air supremacy in any conflict for the reasonable future for the simple fact that there *are* no peer militaries for the US.

The only way to be more than a speed bump to the modern US military is politically or with an all out nuclear attack.

Russia is the only country with the capacity for such a nuclear attack even on paper. All the other nuclear powers have a limited number of warheads (and this includes China). Some of them could certainly cause a lot of damage, but the US would survive. Whoever launched such an attack would utterly cease to exist.

We spend almost as much on defense as *the rest of the world combined*. If we committed to a total war nobody could mount more than a token resistance.

Which is why China is wisely concentrating on weakening us from within by compromising out leadership. They can't hope to match us militarily anytime in the foreseeable future.

 

[holdover]

If the Russian invasion of Ukraine was justified to keep NATO troops off of Russia's border, then a NATO invasion would be justified now to keep Russian troops off of the NATO border.

You can't have it both ways.

I suppose it could. Do you think thats a great Idea? I feel the reason we are fighting a proxy war at all is to avoid doing just that.

tomorrow morning , NATO could begin bombing Russia with the reason that Putin is insane, to many dead civilians, the Russians are going to invade Europe, and we must act now to stop him and the fools will follow the piper to their deaths never knowing the real reasons.

What Im saying is, the west can justify a war on Russia tomorrow if they want to.

 

[JaguarJaguarGolf]

Everything is good until the Russians take out an aircraft carrier and we have 5,000 dead Americans.

There is no rule book that says battle can only occur on the land/sea areas of Eurasia.

 

[spat]

I suppose it could. Do you think thats a great Idea? I feel the reason we are fighting a proxy war at all is to avoid doing just that.

tomorrow morning , NATO could begin bombing Russia with the reason that Putin is insane, to many dead civilians, the Russians are going to invade Europe, and we must act now to stop him and the fools will follow the piper to their deaths never knowing the real reasons.

What Im saying is, the west can justify a war on Russia tomorrow if they want to.

I'm certainly not suggesting that.

I am saying that Russia's adventurism cannot be allowed to succeed.

For the same reason that it was a bad idea to let Germany have Austria a century ago.

Putin will not stop on his own. He would invade all of Europe if nobody ever counters him.

The longer we wait the harder it will be.

We missed the opportunity to stop this easily a decade and a half ago in Georgia. If we let him have Ukraine, they will stop for a whole. But if they are allowed to fully assimilate Ukraine they will eventually more than double their military might.

Do we really want to sacrifice everything that isn't NATO to him ?

 

[holdover]

I'm certainly not suggesting that.

I am saying that Russia's adventurism cannot be allowed to succeed.

For the same reason that it was a bad idea to let Germany have Austria a century ago.

Putin will not stop on his own. He would invade all of Europe if nobody ever counters him.

The longer we wait the harder it will be.

We missed the opportunity to stop this easily a decade and a half ago in Georgia. If we let him have Ukraine, they will stop for a whole. But if they are allowed to fully assimilate Ukraine they will eventually more than double their military might.

Do we really want to sacrifice everything that isn't NATO to him ?

Not everyone sees it as adventurism, I sure dont. I believe your premise is flawed, so you interpret it through the lens of pure aggression . I dont see it that way.

What was the whole point of NATO? it was to ensure or help prevent a invasion of Europe by the Soviets. it succeeded. Well the Soviet union collapsed, 25 years ago. The US needed an enemy to justify its spending and putting money in their own pockets so they insisted Russia was an enemy. even though it wanted to join the EU and even NATO . The US never wanted peace, because peace means they lose money ,Luckily for them a war on terror was invented , whereby a crime done by non state groups can be used to justify an invasion of an entire country.

Thank God for 911 and the mideast wars or they would have lost a lot of money .

They are puppet masters , and this is theater. Its all about them. about power, money.

They have been pushing for this war with Russia for years, They have been arming and training them and building defenses for years , funded by NATO and the US .

Russia will not join the globalists and give up her sovereignty to foreign leaders they never voted for. Europe has. Look at the results with their open border policy's. thier economy, the war against Russia is pushed by the globalists , the same globalists that outsourced American industry to China and want Russia to be broken up into several countries, which is where the US is headed.

 

[spat]

Not everyone sees it as adventurism, I sure dont. I believe your premise is flawed, so you interpret it through the lens of pure aggression . I dont see it that way.

What was the whole point of NATO? it was to ensure or help prevent a invasion of Europe by the Soviets. it succeeded. Well the Soviet union collapsed, 25 years ago. The US needed an enemy to justify its spending and putting money in their own pockets so they insisted Russia was an enemy. even though it wanted to join the EU and even NATO . The US never wanted peace, because peace means they lose money ,Luckily for them a war on terror was invented , whereby a crime done by non state groups can be used to justify an invasion of an entire country.

Thank God for 911 and the mideast wars or they would have lost a lot of money .

They are puppet masters , and this is theater. Its all about them. about power, money.

They have been pushing for this war with Russia for years, They have been arming and training them and building defenses for years , funded by NATO and the US .

Russia will not join the globalists and give up her sovereignty to foreign leaders they never voted for. Europe has. Look at the results with their open border policy's. thier economy, the war against Russia is pushed by the globalists , the same globalists that outsourced American industry to China and want Russia to be broken up into several countries, which is where the US is headed.

The rhetoric used to justify the spending is irrelevant.

The point is NATO was never going to invade Russia, but if they did then there was nothing Russia could do besides launch a full nuclear strike anyway.

The idea that it would matter at all whether Ukriane joined NATO or not is ridiculous. The only thing a NATO Ukraine would change is that Russia wouldn't be able to invade them. It wouldn't change a timeline for a NATO attack on Russia by more than a few hours.

 

[holdover]

The idea that it would matter at all whether Ukriane joined NATO or not is ridiculous. The only thing a NATO Ukraine would change is that Russia wouldn't be able to invade them. It wouldn't change a timeline for a NATO attack on Russia by more than a few hours.

Again , your wrong. thats not the only thing that would change. You see things from only one perspective , like a I said.

What else do you think would change? How about US and NATO tanks on Russia's border? How about US airbases less than 400 airmiles from Moscow? How about US submarines and carriers in Odessa A former Russian city? How about anti missile systems on Russias border denying her a way to defend herself in case of a NATO attack? How about tactical Nukes less than 4 minutes to Moscow?

You have to look at the circumstances like you were in court, bias's dont matter. You have to be objective in order to be fair.

Just how would a Russian general view this? As a threat ? or nothing to worry about?

My enemy is not the Russian people, its the globalists. the people you support .

Not being able to see things through the eyes of others is a flaw. Your being misled by the same people that told you Covid was deadly disease and mandated global vaccinations. That Saddam Hussien was involved in 911. That he had WMDs that Iran was ever a threat to the US . Your too smart for that bullshit .

What we have is a criminal syndicate of global proportions. Not individuals .

 

[Mosinitis]

Take your proxy war and shove it. Rally scheduled for Feb 19th in Washington.

 

[Defilade]

 

[FP1201]

Ding, ding ding.....


They do not need to know how to maintain them. They do not need to know how to service them.

The US will be sending Military personnel with these tanks to ensure they are operating to full capacity.

The Left wants and all out war. The WEF wants and all out war.

Anyone that thinks this is a good idea, is absolutely clueless to what this means. Clueless.

now why do you think America has been depleting its reserves f munitions, phasing out vehicle platforms with so, to no replacements,
Why we're baiting other Countries into warfare, why billions in equipment was left in Agfhanistan, why new enlistments and re-enlistments are at an all time low.... The Military Industrial Complex and the Congresspeople it owns, that's why.

 

[Acer-m14]

I wonder what Ukraine looks like using Google Earth .

will all them shot up Tanks show up ?



Sat image date 9-26-20 LOL ..

 

[spat]

Again , your wrong. thats not the only thing that would change. You see things from only one perspective , like a I said.

What else do you think would change? How about US and NATO tanks on Russia's border? How about US airbases less than 400 airmiles from Moscow? How about US submarines and carriers in Odessa A former Russian city? How about anti missile systems on Russias border denying her a way to defend herself in case of a NATO attack? How about tactical Nukes less than 4 minutes to Moscow?

You have to look at the circumstances like you were in court, bias's dont matter. You have to be objective in order to be fair.

Just how would a Russian general view this? As a threat ? or nothing to worry about?

My enemy is not the Russian people, its the globalists. the people you support .

Not being able to see things through the eyes of others is a flaw. Your being misled by the same people that told you Covid was deadly disease and mandated global vaccinations. That Saddam Hussien was involved in 911. That he had WMDs that Iran was ever a threat to the US . Your too smart for that bullshit .

What we have is a criminal syndicate of global proportions. Not individuals .

None of that would matter.

What difference do you think it would make if NATO decided to attack Russia ?

You think anything would be different if they launched such an attack from Ukraine instead of Poland or Germany ?

The notion that Russia needs or could make any use whatsoever of a buffer zone like that is just silly.

 

[livingston]

 

[livingston]

 

[tirwin1]

View attachment 190392

IF?

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Well this is ominous shit. If this doesn't scream "war is coming" I don't know what else does

 

[Steal2B]

 

[holdover]

You think anything would be different if they launched such an attack from Ukraine instead of Poland or Germany ?

Of course!

The notion that Russia needs or could make any use whatsoever of a buffer zone like that is just silly.

LOL, Come on, the concept is called time and distance, the principle doesn't change. See Napoleon, German invasion of Russia

 

[spat]

Of course!


LOL, Come on, the concept is called time and distance, the principle doesn't change. See Napoleon, German invasion of Russia

Russia demanding a buffer zone against NATO is like Danny Devito demanding a 5 yard head start in a 100 yard dash against Usain Bolt.

It doesn’t make any difference.

 

[prambo]

Pentagon Wants To Return Special Ops Propagandists To Ukraine

"Much further down in the article we learn the specifics of what those two top-secret programs were. One of them entailed US commandos sending Ukrainian operatives “on surreptitious reconnaissance missions in Ukraine’s east” to collect intelligence on Russia. The other entailed secretly administering online propaganda, though of course The Washington Post does not describe it as such."

 

[tirwin1]

Russia demanding a buffer zone against NATO is like Danny Devito demanding a 5 yard head start in a 100 yard dash against Usain Bolt.

It doesn’t make any difference.

It might not make a difference but it certainly is in their thinking. The Warsaw pact was a deliberate set of buffer nations designed to be the first line of defense against future invasion from the west. I can see how the Russians would want to replicate something similar in today's environment.

 

[1341]

It might not make a difference but it certainly is in their thinking. The Warsaw pact was a deliberate set of buffer nations designed to be the first line of defense against future invasion from the west. I can see how the Russians would want to replicate something similar in today's environment.

Easier said then done. There is a reason why the Warsaw Pact fell apart and a reason why none of the eastern European countries want to replicate it.

 

[holdover]

Russia demanding a buffer zone against NATO is like Danny Devito demanding a 5 yard head start in a 100 yard dash against Usain Bolt.

It doesn’t make any difference.

Sorry it .makes a huge difference. Kinda shocked ed you would even say that

 

[spat]

Sorry it .makes a huge difference. Kinda shocked ed you would even say that

Ok, explain what difference it would make in the real world.

What sort of timeline do you think a full blown NATO invasion of Russia look like with and without Ukraine as a buffer state.

Maybe a few hours difference, tops.

 

[holdover]

No, and Im not going to try to explain military principles which are not subject to change, strategy, tactics, logistics to you .
Your not well read on the subject and it would take hours, days, of my time to explain , which You wouldn't agree with anyway.

I prefer to just disagree .

 

[spat]

No, and Im not going to try to explain military principles which are not subject to change, strategy, tactics, logistics to you .
Your not well read on the subject and it would take hours, days, of my time to explain , which You wouldn't agree with anyway.

I prefer to just disagree .

I'm not sure what you think you know, but it certainly doesn't seem accurate.

I seriously doubt some in depth analysis of a conflict between Russia and NATO in 2023 is going to find some golden bullet that will allow Russia to meaningfully alter the outcome just because they get a few hundred miles more buffer.

Strategy and Tactics are pretty well understood at this point (except by Russia who keeps trying century old tactics against a modern enemy and wondering why they fail).

Assuming you don't make any absurd blunders like that, logistics is the main challenge. The logistical ability of NATO so outclasses Russia that it's ridiculous to even compare them.

Russian logistics failed miserably only a few hours drive from their border.

There is also the small matter of the scale of the militaries.

NATO defense spending is about 1.2 Trillion dollars in 2022. The entire GDP of Russia is only 1.7T

NATO GDP is 46T by the way. That's an order of magnitude greater. Canada alone has a larger GDP than Russia.

NATO has about 3.3 million active troops vs Russia's 1.15M

You can try and pretend the quality of the Russian troops is on par with NATO, it it would be a fantasy.

The fact that Russia has so utterly failed to take Ukraine, a country that has little defensive capability at all compared to NATO should make this clear.

 

[holdover]

I'm not sure what you think you know, but it certainly doesn't seem accurate.

Such as?

 

[holdover]

I'm not sure what you think you know, but it certainly doesn't seem accurate.

I seriously doubt some in depth analysis of a conflict between Russia and NATO in 2023 is going to find some golden bullet that will allow Russia to meaningfully alter the outcome just because they get a few hundred miles more buffer.

Strategy and Tactics are pretty well understood at this point (except by Russia who keeps trying century old tactics against a modern enemy and wondering why they fail).

Assuming you don't make any absurd blunders like that, logistics is the main challenge. The logistical ability of NATO so outclasses Russia that it's ridiculous to even compare them.

Russian logistics failed miserably only a few hours drive from their border.

There is also the small matter of the scale of the militaries.

NATO defense spending is about 1.2 Trillion dollars in 2022. The entire GDP of Russia is only 1.7T

NATO GDP is 46T by the way. That's an order of magnitude greater. Canada alone has a larger GDP than Russia.

NATO has about 3.3 million active troops vs Russia's 1.15M

You can try and pretend the quality of the Russian troops is on par with NATO, it it would be a fantasy.

The fact that Russia has so utterly failed to take Ukraine, a country that has little defensive capability at all compared to NATO should make this clear.

You forgot a whole lot of stuff. a lot of what you said is wildly inaccurate.

 

[holdover]

I'm not sure what you think you know, but it certainly doesn't seem accurate.

I seriously doubt some in depth analysis of a conflict between Russia and NATO in 2023 is going to find some golden bullet that will allow Russia to meaningfully alter the outcome just because they get a few hundred miles more buffer.

Strategy and Tactics are pretty well understood at this point (except by Russia who keeps trying century old tactics against a modern enemy and wondering why they fail).

Assuming you don't make any absurd blunders like that, logistics is the main challenge. The logistical ability of NATO so outclasses Russia that it's ridiculous to even compare them.

Russian logistics failed miserably only a few hours drive from their border.

There is also the small matter of the scale of the militaries.

NATO defense spending is about 1.2 Trillion dollars in 2022. The entire GDP of Russia is only 1.7T

NATO GDP is 46T by the way. That's an order of magnitude greater. Canada alone has a larger GDP than Russia.

NATO has about 3.3 million active troops vs Russia's 1.15M

You can try and pretend the quality of the Russian troops is on par with NATO, it it would be a fantasy.

The fact that Russia has so utterly failed to take Ukraine, a country that has little defensive capability at all compared to NATO should make this clear.

If everything you said is true, why do you believe Russia is going to invade Europe? You dont make any sense.