Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
Oh, okay, I guess that makes it all right then. Un-effing real.
Robin
Robin
Things are heating up in the Donbass
- Thread starter holdover
- Start date
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
No of course not. but it shows your ""Point "" is irrelevant . Ukraine has committed war crimes too. The US has committed war crimes , anyone who ever fought a war has most likely committed war crimes. Its the nature of war and people. Doesn't make it right,If you condem Russia for it then you condemn the US too.
You have a CNN simplistic view that Russia invaded Ukraine therefore Russia is wrong.
Do you know what happened in the Donbas?
Do you know why the republics in Ukraine became break away republics?
Do you know what the Minsk accords were?
do you know why Ukraine broke its neutrality agreement with Russia?
Did you know the US had been arming Ukraine since the CIA backed revolution in 14
Did you know Ukraine had an army of 170, 000 near Donbas and Crimea?
DO you know why Russia took Crimea?
Do you know the reasons and causes of this war ? This is a complex subject that happened over a period of decades. its like someones understanding of real estate is houses are green hotels are red. there's a lot more to it than that.
Your blindly agreeing with Biden's policy of arming Ukraine when Biden hasn't been right once. Your talking about war crimes at the same time your supporting it .
You have a CNN simplistic view that Russia invaded Ukraine therefore Russia is wrong.
Do you know what happened in the Donbas?
Do you know why the republics in Ukraine became break away republics?
Do you know what the Minsk accords were?
do you know why Ukraine broke its neutrality agreement with Russia?
Did you know the US had been arming Ukraine since the CIA backed revolution in 14
Did you know Ukraine had an army of 170, 000 near Donbas and Crimea?
DO you know why Russia took Crimea?
Do you know the reasons and causes of this war ? This is a complex subject that happened over a period of decades. its like someones understanding of real estate is houses are green hotels are red. there's a lot more to it than that.
Your blindly agreeing with Biden's policy of arming Ukraine when Biden hasn't been right once. Your talking about war crimes at the same time your supporting it .
FrankenCub
.338 Win Mag
And not to forget Ukraine was targeting civilian buildings in this war to blame it on Russia. Many civilian interviews saying it was Ukrainian fighters doing it.
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
I have not, do not and will not blindly agree with Bidens policy towards Ukraine, another non-sequitur self serving line of bullshit.
On the other hand you have demonstrated gleefully your support for that murderous bastard Putin. Obviously you have never seen war and what it does to civilians caught up in it.
Robin
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
I agree with Putin, because in this case, he is right. You support the war in Ukraine you support Bidens policy there. no way around it. Your pro globalism . if Biden did the right thing, I would agree with him too. Im on the side of truth , I dont care who tells it , Im not a blind patriot. My country has been corrupted , its a criminal enterprise .
If you understood the topic better, you wouldnt be so god dammed angry.
And Ill add one more thing, because you dont really seem to be up on the topic, For three months Putin begged Zelenski to return to a neutral country, to stop bombing the donbass , multiple times!! Zelensky told him to go fuck himself . The war could have been avoided if Zelensky didnt attempt to join NATO .
If you understood the topic better, you wouldnt be so god dammed angry.
And Ill add one more thing, because you dont really seem to be up on the topic, For three months Putin begged Zelenski to return to a neutral country, to stop bombing the donbass , multiple times!! Zelensky told him to go fuck himself . The war could have been avoided if Zelensky didnt attempt to join NATO .
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
You confuse your opinion and conclusions with hard fact and like many today, don't even realize it. Since I view debate on the internet a waste of my time I'll opt out of this. My opinions are mine and based on known facts and conclusions made from data that I can verify, if only to a certain degree and remain fluid on those points, which when thoroughly vetted out may indeed cause me to change my mind. You are right on many points you make above, and so very wrong on conclusions based on those facts.
Robin
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
I Was Right: There Was No Mutiny |
"Placing Prigozhin’s troops in Belarus shortens the distance to Kiev, making Zelensky’s capital easy to seize. Also the Wagner troops could be used to seal the Polish border with Ukraine or the Western border of Ukraine. "
"Placing Prigozhin’s troops in Belarus shortens the distance to Kiev, making Zelensky’s capital easy to seize. Also the Wagner troops could be used to seal the Polish border with Ukraine or the Western border of Ukraine. "
Lots of talk about zaparhozsi power plant right now....
The area around the plant has been ordered to be evacuated as well.
Each side is saying the other is planning to sabotage it.
It appears this situation is coming to a head in short order.
To me, it makes the most sense that Ukraine is going to try and blow it up to blame Russia to get more NATO and US support. Remember 2 weeks ago douchenozzle senators Graham and Blumenthal were espousing this exact scenario as justification for the US to enter the conflict directly.
That's not coincidental. None of this is happening by accident or in a vacuum, we are being fed these stories deliberately to try and steer the Overton window in the news cycle.
The area around the plant has been ordered to be evacuated as well.
Each side is saying the other is planning to sabotage it.
It appears this situation is coming to a head in short order.
To me, it makes the most sense that Ukraine is going to try and blow it up to blame Russia to get more NATO and US support. Remember 2 weeks ago douchenozzle senators Graham and Blumenthal were espousing this exact scenario as justification for the US to enter the conflict directly.
That's not coincidental. None of this is happening by accident or in a vacuum, we are being fed these stories deliberately to try and steer the Overton window in the news cycle.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
100% . I saw a zelenski tweet saying Russians have placed explosives on the roof tops. The fucking roof tops???? Ive worked with demolitions in the army thats not how its done. unless of course you want ""satellite proof"" . this is a bad joke.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Link no work.
Chris Hedges: They Lied About Afghanistan. They Lied About Iraq. And They Are Lying About Ukraine. - scheerpost.com
"The playbook the pimps of war use to lure us into one military fiasco after another, including Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and now Ukraine, does not change. Freedom and democracy are threatened. Evil must be vanquished. Human rights must be protected. The fate of Europe and NATO, along with a “rules based international order” is at stake. Victory is assured.
The results are also the same. The justifications and narratives are exposed as lies. The cheery prognosis is false. Those on whose behalf we are supposedly fighting are as venal as those we are fighting against."
"The playbook the pimps of war use to lure us into one military fiasco after another, including Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and now Ukraine, does not change. Freedom and democracy are threatened. Evil must be vanquished. Human rights must be protected. The fate of Europe and NATO, along with a “rules based international order” is at stake. Victory is assured.
The results are also the same. The justifications and narratives are exposed as lies. The cheery prognosis is false. Those on whose behalf we are supposedly fighting are as venal as those we are fighting against."
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
It works on my tablet
I will say this. I have since the beginning sided with Putin, Russia and their reasons behind the invasion. I still support the same. The Ukraine is dirty. So much illegal shit going on in that Country. Russia will "Win", as long as the World does not lose. Once the dust settles, the real truths will come out. The Biolabs. The genocide in Ukraine. The child trafficking that is taking place. Ever wonder why so many Hollywood "Elites" are going there to show their support?
I hate the senseless killing that is going on, horrible; especially for the pure innocent loss of life.
I hate the senseless killing that is going on, horrible; especially for the pure innocent loss of life.
@Acer-m14
I'll bet you could section off (or intentionally divide) this shit-hole country along the following lines...
1) Believe that the fUSA ia a "democracy...
---have at least 2 "death jabs" and most likely more
---have their young children poisoned by the "death jabs"
---many still wear a mask (or 5)
---COVID has a "natural origin"
---it's better to die while intubated and on Remdisavir than try one of 2 extremely safe medications with proven track records
---total "froth-at-the mouth" DemonRats
---still have a Ukie flag somewhere
---believe the Russian's started it and the Ukes are winning
---probably have the newest "Mentally Ill Pride" flag (the one with the "shit brown" section)
---pathological hate of Trump
---"celebrate" diversity, even in their investing
---etc, etc, etc, ad infinitun, ad nauseum
2) Know that the fUSA used to be a "constitutional republic"...
I'll bet you could section off (or intentionally divide) this shit-hole country along the following lines...
1) Believe that the fUSA ia a "democracy...
---have at least 2 "death jabs" and most likely more
---have their young children poisoned by the "death jabs"
---many still wear a mask (or 5)
---COVID has a "natural origin"
---it's better to die while intubated and on Remdisavir than try one of 2 extremely safe medications with proven track records
---total "froth-at-the mouth" DemonRats
---still have a Ukie flag somewhere
---believe the Russian's started it and the Ukes are winning
---probably have the newest "Mentally Ill Pride" flag (the one with the "shit brown" section)
---pathological hate of Trump
---"celebrate" diversity, even in their investing
---etc, etc, etc, ad infinitun, ad nauseum
2) Know that the fUSA used to be a "constitutional republic"...
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Absolute nonsense based on your your own uninformed opinion.
Im going to state some facts from which I draw my conclusions
Washington D.C., – U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu).
The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.”
President George H.W. Bush had assured Gorbachev during the Malta summit in December 1989 that the U.S. would not take advantage (“I have not jumped up and down on the Berlin Wall”) of the revolutions in Eastern Europe to harm Soviet interests; but neither Bush nor Gorbachev at that point (or for that matter, West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl) expected so soon the collapse of East Germany or the speed of German unification.[2]
The first concrete assurances by Western leaders on NATO began on January 31, 1990, when West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher opened the bidding with a major public speech at Tutzing, in Bavaria, on German unification. The U.S. Embassy in Bonn (see Document 1) informed Washington that Genscher made clear “that the changes in Eastern Europe and the German unification process must not lead to an ‘impairment of Soviet security interests.’ Therefore, NATO should rule out an ‘expansion of its territory towards the east, i.e. moving it closer to the Soviet borders.’” The Bonn cable also noted Genscher’s proposal to leave the East German territory out of NATO military structures even in a unified Germany in NATO.[3]
the reunification of Germany on 3 October 1990, Berlin was reinstated as the capital city of united Germany (20 June 1991) and the Länder of the former German Democratic Republic joined the Federal Republic of Germany, thereby becoming a member of NATO.
1991 Ukraine gains Independence
1991 the Soviet Union dissolves
28 September 1995: Publication of NATO Study on Enlargement. 8-9 July 1997: At the Madrid Summit, three partner countries – Czechia, Hungary and Poland – are invited to start accession talks. 12 March 1999: Accession of Czechia, Hungary and Poland, bringing the Alliance to 19 members.
2004 - The second wave of post-Cold War enlargement
The flags of all NATO Allies are paraded in front of NATO Headquarters in Brussels in April 2004 during the flag-raising ceremony marking the accession of :
Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia.
Croatia joins NATO 2009.
Albania joins NATO 2009
Montenegro Joins NATO 2017
Finland joins NATO 2023
“not one inch eastward”
ukraine neutrality agreement The declaration also proclaimed that the republic has intent to become in a future "a permanently neutral state that does not participate in military blocs," and that it would not accept, nor produce, nor procure nuclear weapons.
Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine
IX. External and Internal Security
The Ukrainian SSR has the right to its own armed forces.
The Ukrainian SSR has its own internal armies and bodies of state security subordinated to the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian SSR.
The Ukrainian SSR determines procedures for military service by citizens of the Republic.
Citizens of the Ukrainian SSR perform their military service, as a rule, on the territory of the Republic, and cannot be used for military purpose beyond its borders without the consent of the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian SSR.
The Ukrainian SSR solemnly declares its intention of becoming a permanently neutral state that does not participate in military blocs and adheres to three nuclear free principles: to accept, to produce and to purchase no nuclear weapons.
The Declaration is the basis for a new constitution and laws of Ukraine and determines the positions of the Republic for the purpose of international agreements.
The principles of the Declaration of the Sovereignty of Ukraine are used for preparation of a new union agreement.
Passed by the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic
Kyiv, July 16, 1990
#55-XII
Kyiv, July 16, 1990
#55-XII
Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine
static.rada.gov.ua
In 2014, There was a military coup with the aim of making Ukraine a member of NATO. The military coup was carried out by forces completely in line with the US and NATO. This coup was not supported or joined by all regions of Ukraine. The eastern parts of the country rebelled and rejected to support the nationalist force established by the coup. Afterwards, they declared ther independence.
Donbass and Luhansk regions broke away from Ukraine. they did not recognize the new Western backed government.
Article 138 of the Ukrainian constitution - "The competence of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea comprises: 1) designating elections of deputies to the Verkhovna Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea... 2) organising and conducting local referendums.
After the Maiden revolution in Ukraine in 2014, the Crimea voted to break away from Ukraine and join the Russian federation.
Russia mobilized its troops in February and March 2014 to seize control of Crimea.
2014 The Azov Assault Brigade (Ukrainian: [7] It was founded in May 2014 as the Azov Battalion[a] (Ukrainian: батальйон «Азов», romanized: Batalion "Azov"), a volunteer paramilitary militia under the command of Andriy Biletsky to fight pro-Russian forces in the war in Donbas.
The Minsk agreements were a series of international agreements which sought to end the Donbas war fought between armed Russian separatist groups and Armed Forces of Ukraine,
Minsk agreements - Wikipedia
According to former German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the Minsk agreement served to buy time to rearm Ukraine. “The 2014 Minsk agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time,” Merkel told the weekly Die Zeit. “It also used this time to become stronger, as you can see today.”
All the more remarkable is her admission that the Minsk agreement served to buy time for Ukraine’s rearmament. “It was clear to all of us that this was a frozen conflict, that the problem had not been solved, but that is precisely what gave Ukraine valuable time,” Merkel told Die Zeit.
Russia, fearing for its Black Sea fleet base in Sevastopol, annexed Crimea with the help of a referendum. Russian-backed separatists proclaimed independent republics in Donetsk and Luhansk in eastern Ukraine.
The new rulers in Kiev were unable to prevent this. The Ukrainian army had fallen apart. Soldiers unwilling to sacrifice themselves for the new regime had deserted en masse.
Under these circumstances, Merkel and Hollande organized the Minsk agreement—as Merkel now admits—to freeze the conflict and buy time. The agreement included a cease-fire, the withdrawal of heavy weapons, and the establishment of a security zone, monitored by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). The Ukrainian government pledged to amend the constitution to allow special status for Donetsk and Luhansk and grant them greater autonomy.
Hardly any of this was ever implemented. In particular, the Ukrainian side boycotted all agreements. It did not want a negotiated settlement. Lacking soldiers ready to fight, the newly installed President Petro Poroshenko mobilized the Azov battalion and other fascist militias, which the billionaire oligarch partly financed from his own assets.
NATO used the “valuable time” (Merkel) gained by this terror to rebuild, arm to the teeth, and train the Ukrainian armed forces. For example, according to a British parliamentary report, the British Army has trained and equipped Ukrainian soldiers since 2014. Ukraine has not formally become part of NATO but is doing so in practice.
Russia’s decision to take military action against Ukraine was the predictable—and intended—reaction to this NATO offensive.
These are some of the Facts which lead me to support Russia . Ill post my opinion based upon those facts in my next post.
Last edited:
spat
.700 Nitro Express
And that justifies invading a sovereign neighbor ?Absolute nonsense based on your your own uninformed opinion.
Im going to state some facts from which I draw my conclusions
Washington D.C., – U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu).
The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.”
President George H.W. Bush had assured Gorbachev during the Malta summit in December 1989 that the U.S. would not take advantage (“I have not jumped up and down on the Berlin Wall”) of the revolutions in Eastern Europe to harm Soviet interests; but neither Bush nor Gorbachev at that point (or for that matter, West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl) expected so soon the collapse of East Germany or the speed of German unification.[2]
The first concrete assurances by Western leaders on NATO began on January 31, 1990, when West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher opened the bidding with a major public speech at Tutzing, in Bavaria, on German unification. The U.S. Embassy in Bonn (see Document 1) informed Washington that Genscher made clear “that the changes in Eastern Europe and the German unification process must not lead to an ‘impairment of Soviet security interests.’ Therefore, NATO should rule out an ‘expansion of its territory towards the east, i.e. moving it closer to the Soviet borders.’” The Bonn cable also noted Genscher’s proposal to leave the East German territory out of NATO military structures even in a unified Germany in NATO.[3]
the reunification of Germany on 3 October 1990, Berlin was reinstated as the capital city of united Germany (20 June 1991) and the Länder of the former German Democratic Republic joined the Federal Republic of Germany, thereby becoming a member of NATO.
1991 Ukraine gains Independence
1991 the Soviet Union dissolves
28 September 1995: Publication of NATO Study on Enlargement. 8-9 July 1997: At the Madrid Summit, three partner countries – Czechia, Hungary and Poland – are invited to start accession talks. 12 March 1999: Accession of Czechia, Hungary and Poland, bringing the Alliance to 19 members.
2004 - The second wave of post-Cold War enlargement
The flags of all NATO Allies are paraded in front of NATO Headquarters in Brussels in April 2004 during the flag-raising ceremony marking the accession of :
Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia.
Croatia joins NATO 2009.
Albania joins NATO 2009
Montenegro Joins NATO 2017
Finland joins NATO 2023
“not one inch eastward”
ukraine neutrality agreement The declaration also proclaimed that the republic has intent to become in a future "a permanently neutral state that does not participate in military blocs," and that it would not accept, nor produce, nor procure nuclear weapons.
Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine
IX. External and Internal Security
The Ukrainian SSR has the right to its own armed forces.
The Ukrainian SSR has its own internal armies and bodies of state security subordinated to the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian SSR.
The Ukrainian SSR determines procedures for military service by citizens of the Republic.
Citizens of the Ukrainian SSR perform their military service, as a rule, on the territory of the Republic, and cannot be used for military purpose beyond its borders without the consent of the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian SSR.
The Ukrainian SSR solemnly declares its intention of becoming a permanently neutral state that does not participate in military blocs and adheres to three nuclear free principles: to accept, to produce and to purchase no nuclear weapons.
The Declaration is the basis for a new constitution and laws of Ukraine and determines the positions of the Republic for the purpose of international agreements.
The principles of the Declaration of the Sovereignty of Ukraine are used for preparation of a new union agreement.
Passed by the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic
Kyiv, July 16, 1990
#55-XII
Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine
In 2014, There was a military coup with the aim of making Ukraine a member of NATO. The military coup was carried out by forces completely in line with the US and NATO. This coup was not supported or joined by all regions of Ukraine. The eastern parts of the country rebelled and rejected to support the nationalist force established by the coup. Afterwards, they declared ther independence.
Donbass and Luhansk regions broke away from Ukraine. they did not recognize the new Western backed government.
Article 138 of the Ukrainian constitution - "The competence of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea comprises: 1) designating elections of deputies to the Verkhovna Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea... 2) organising and conducting local referendums.
After the Maiden revolution in Ukraine in 2014, the Crimea voted to break away from Ukraine and join the Russian federation.
Russia mobilized its troops in February and March 2014 to seize control of Crimea.
2014 The Azov Assault Brigade (Ukrainian: [7] It was founded in May 2014 as the Azov Battalion[a] (Ukrainian: батальйон «Азов», romanized: Batalion "Azov"), a volunteer paramilitary militia under the command of Andriy Biletsky to fight pro-Russian forces in the war in Donbas.
The Minsk agreements were a series of international agreements which sought to end the Donbas war fought between armed Russian separatist groups and Armed Forces of Ukraine,
Minsk agreements - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
According to former German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the Minsk agreement served to buy time to rearm Ukraine. “The 2014 Minsk agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time,” Merkel told the weekly Die Zeit. “It also used this time to become stronger, as you can see today.”
All the more remarkable is her admission that the Minsk agreement served to buy time for Ukraine’s rearmament. “It was clear to all of us that this was a frozen conflict, that the problem had not been solved, but that is precisely what gave Ukraine valuable time,” Merkel told Die Zeit.
Russia, fearing for its Black Sea fleet base in Sevastopol, annexed Crimea with the help of a referendum. Russian-backed separatists proclaimed independent republics in Donetsk and Luhansk in eastern Ukraine.
The new rulers in Kiev were unable to prevent this. The Ukrainian army had fallen apart. Soldiers unwilling to sacrifice themselves for the new regime had deserted en masse.
Under these circumstances, Merkel and Hollande organized the Minsk agreement—as Merkel now admits—to freeze the conflict and buy time. The agreement included a cease-fire, the withdrawal of heavy weapons, and the establishment of a security zone, monitored by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). The Ukrainian government pledged to amend the constitution to allow special status for Donetsk and Luhansk and grant them greater autonomy.
Hardly any of this was ever implemented. In particular, the Ukrainian side boycotted all agreements. It did not want a negotiated settlement. Lacking soldiers ready to fight, the newly installed President Petro Poroshenko mobilized the Azov battalion and other fascist militias, which the billionaire oligarch partly financed from his own assets.
NATO used the “valuable time” (Merkel) gained by this terror to rebuild, arm to the teeth, and train the Ukrainian armed forces. For example, according to a British parliamentary report, the British Army has trained and equipped Ukrainian soldiers since 2014. Ukraine has not formally become part of NATO but is doing so in practice.
Russia’s decision to take military action against Ukraine was the predictable—and intended—reaction to this NATO offensive.
These are some of the Facts which lead me to support Russia . Ill post my opinion based upon those facts in my next post.
So, we should just annex Cuba now that the Chinese are building stuff there ?
Or should we look at this as the Russians expanding westward, and invade Ukraine ourselves?
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
You have absolutely no idea of what I am informed of. But a few more paragraphs of globularity should bolster your stance.
Robin
Robin
At some point Russians figured out this was incremental dismantling of their country. Little steps, which in their totality constitute an aggression.
When Western leaders were romancing Gorbachev, did they tell him this will lead to CIA/NATO directing attacks on Moscow while sitting in Kiev with their hand picked puppet.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The problem is that the Russians have some delusion that the former Soviet satellites owe them something.
In reality, it's the other way around.
All the "agreements" you are complaining about are 30 years ago, and were about Ukraine giving up their significant nuclear stockpile.
Turns out that was a bad idea.
How long do you think Russia should have been able to dictate to Ukraine who it's friends can be ? 50 years, 100 ?
Yes Russians have a delusion that agreements bind both sides and the same standards apply to all countries.