Think I narrowed down my shooting issues - grip help needed

[Cleck]

I need an adult, lol.

I've probably said on here before that I have trouble shooting left. I do it w/ every pistol I shoot usually. Put new sights on the G48, went out this weekend to try them out. Better groups, not low, just left again. In the past I've shot low and left. I quick googled at the range what my problem is and came up w/ the idea that my grip probably sucks. I think I'm squeezing too hard w/ my right (strong/trigger) hand when I pull the trigger.

I looked up the Wall Drill last night in bed and sat up and cleared the gun and tried it. It said that if you lose your sight picture or it wobbles, then you're doing something wrong. I didn't experience that this time.

I've always done the two hand grip. Thumb and index finger high as possible, followed by middle/ring/pinky in succession wrapped lightly in line below. Left hand wrapped around the bottom 3 of my right, below the trigger guard, thumbs usually forward, but sometimes right thumb over top of left hand.

Now here's where I must not be getting it right (or tell me what I'm doing wrong). Do I want the left hand to squeeze more than the right? I felt when I did this last night, the sights didn't move. Still, could the left squeezing cause the pulling left? This is an annoying problem that I just can't seem to figure out or shake.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Shooting Left of Center: Training Tips to Get on Target

Are your groups consistently hitting left of the bullseye? See these training tips to move your groups to the center.

www.shootingillustrated.com

"This is a common problem, even for experienced shooters. It usually stems from inconsistencies in how the gun is gripped through the series of shots even though it is not readily recognized. The fact that you are able to shoot acceptable groups (albeit not exactly where you would like them to be) indicates the gun likely fits your hand and your trigger-finger placement on the trigger is at least adequate. ...What this means in practical terms is that you have been unconsciously increasing your grip tension as the trigger is pulled, thereby causing the gun to roll slightly inboard to the left due to the way your fingers wrap around the grip of the gun."

I don't wanna say I have a death grip on the gun, but I felt like when I was at the range, I tried loosening my grip, and still pulled it right. I put in bold the part that seems to be the issue, and I feel like that is going to happen any time I pull the trigger. Thoughts?

 

[Chevusa]

I'm usually always a bit left as well. I've heard people say to rotate your left hand down, making your thumb rise up higher on the gun. I don't think it helped me much.

 

[Cleck]

Yeah, not sure about that one. Someone in the comments wrote this, "There needs to be a space between the pad of the index finger and the frame of the pistol when gripping the gun. If not that pad will flex up and push the barrel to the left when the trigger is pulled." He was saying that to illustrate gun fit to hand. Mine seems to fit, but I'll have to check this pad clearance.

I think this may be an in-person fix, where someone can analyse my grip as they see it and point out what I'm doing wrong.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I know this goes against everything that an instructor teaches and most here will just say to learn to shoot properly.

I had the same issue. An aftermarket lighter trigger fixed my shooting low part since it no longer required additional pressure which caused me to dip down a little. Moving my rear sight a little to compensate fixed my left part.

Why did I move my rear sight? Well only when concentrating and shooting slow can I get perfect mechanics to shoot straight and not shoot an inch to the left. I had to deliberately concentrate to not shoot slightly to the left.

When I rapid fired, all were an inch left. The problem is now gone. I didn’t move it to totally compensate. Just a little. About half compensation.

Now all my shots are very close to where they are supposed to be. I shot steel for the first time at various ranges and at various angles and all my shots rang true. Ping! Ping! Ping!

When you need to grab your gun for real, mechanics aren’t going to be used. You will just squeeze and fire. Better to adjust for your natural holding now and actually hit what you need to hit. If after more practice you find yourself now shooting to the right now, then you fixed your natural holding and mechanics and you can readjust your rear back to compensate your new natural hold and mechanics.

 

[Cleck]

I actually didn't move the rear sight, I installed it and then we measured it w/ a micrometer to make sure it was exactly in the middle.

Your comment about the trigger intrigues me. Much has been said about the mushy trigger, and I can see how it would require more strength to manipulate it. Maybe something to be said for shorter/lighter. I would then wonder if upgrading the trigger is masking my issue or if it was part of the issue.

 

[kev74]

There's no easy answer, but here are a couple of things to try.

1) Do some dry fire immediately before you shoot. Concentrate on pulling the trigger without moving the sites off target - similar to the wall drill you describe above. Then put one round in the gun and shoot it just like you did the dry fire. Then more dry fire, followed by one more live round. Pay attention and see if you can see what you're doing differently.

2) Try giving the gun a "death grip". Grip the gun as hard as you can with your strong nand, then grip with your weak hand as tight as you can. The thought behind this is that if your gripping fingers are squeezing the gun as tightly as possible, they won't be able to push the gun off target if your finger muscles are sympathetically involuntarily moving along with the trigger finger. This works, but might be a bit of a crutch.

3) Experiment with different finger positions on the trigger. If you're only using the tip, try cramming your finger in to the second knuckle. If you normally use more of your finger, try using the pad or tip of your finger.

I wouldn't move the sights to compensate. Nothing good will come of that in the long term. Instead, focus on and fix the fundamentals.

 

[nortatoga]

NPOA?

 

[Marine Cpl]

All I know is this. When you get a rifle, you can put it on a shooting rest supported at both the front and rear and zero it to be dead nuts.

But when you grab it and actually fire it yourself with no support other than your elbows and arms, you need to make minor adjustments. No one ever tries to conform to trying to shoot it as it was in the shooting rest. Everyone has a different zero on a rifle. For you on the same rifle, it could be 2 clicks right and 1 down. But when I grab it, it could be only 1 right and 1 down.

Why when it comes to a pistol, is the mentality different? Zeroing the pistol to yourself makes more sense. If afterwards it changes, than zero it again. Why fight it? You do not fight it with a rifle.

 

[kev74]

All I know is this. When you get a rifle, you can put it on a shooting rest supported at both the front and rear and zero it to be dead nuts.

But when you grab it and actually fire it yourself with no support other than your elbows and arms, you need to make minor adjustments. No one ever tries to conform to trying to shoot it as it was in the shooting rest. Everyone has a different zero on a rifle. For you on the same rifle, it could be 2 clicks right and 1 down. But when I grab it, it could be only 1 right and 1 down.

Why when it comes to a pistol, is the mentality different? Zeroing the pistol to yourself makes more sense. If afterwards it changes, than zero it again. Why fight it? You do not fight it with a rifle.

Or... Put in a little effort, overcome the bad habits, and don't handicap yourself for as long as you continue to shoot.

 

[Darth]

Put a dime on the front sight and dry fire until it doesn't fall off.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Or... Put in a little effort, overcome the bad habits, and don't handicap yourself for as long as you continue to shoot.

I can guarantee that the majority here throughout all the practice of many years and thousands of rounds, still do not shoot dead nuts in both slow and rapid fire. Very few do. Those that do practice, practice, and practice. Multiple times a week.

I can also guarantee that their rifle sights aren’t zeroed out either.

 

[kev74]

I can guarantee that the majority here throughout all the practice of many years and thousands of rounds, still do not shoot dead nuts in both slow and rapid fire. Very few do. Those that do practice, practice, and practice. Multiple times a week.

I can also guarantee that their rifle sights aren’t zeroed out either.

Be careful with guarantees!


We (most of us here) like shooting. If that's the case, why not make the time investment and improve instead of applying a band-aid?

If the OP's targets look like the one posted above, it looks perfectly serviceable and more than adequate for self defense. If he wants to improve, I gave some suggestions for improving. If he wants the holes to be more in the center of the target without doing anything else, your suggestion was valid. Neither is wrong.

I enjoy shooting accurately. I like the feeling of concentrating on nothing else but lining up the sights and squeezing the trigger. Its almost like meditation for me. So that's how I approached the OP's problem.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Shooting at steel was an eye opener for me. I was missing a lot with my LCP with fixed sights. There were no calm trigger pulls and bullseyes like I can normally shoot with it at paper in the range. We were just shooting at about 5 different targets at various ranges, a few rounds at each and on to another quickly.

I grabbed my Glock that had the adjusted rears and no more misses. Maybe a few but nowhere near the constant misses I had with the LCP with non adjustable sights.

Shooting at paper while standing still at a predetermined range with the target in front of you is a lot different than rapid firing at different targets quickly to the left and right of you. Some at about 5 yards. Some at 7. Some at 10. Some to your far left and some to your immediate right. Mechanics go right out the window.

If you can shoot the same during rapid fire, I envy you. I cannot. But I can when the gun is adjusted to me. Maybe some day, I will shoot the same both rapid and slow. When I do, I will readjust the rear sight the slight hair it’s moved now to to make me shoot center.

 

[Darth]

Shooting at steel was an eye opener for me. I was missing a lot with my LCP with fixed sights. There were no calm trigger pulls and bullseyes like I can normally shoot with it at paper in the range. We were just shooting at about 5 different targets at various ranges, a few rounds at each and on to another quickly.

I grabbed my Glock that had the adjusted rears and no more misses. Maybe a few but nowhere near the constant misses I had with the LCP with non adjustable sights.

Shooting at paper while standing still at a predetermined range with the target in front of you is a lot different than rapid firing at different targets quickly to the left and right of you. Some at about 5 yards. Some at 7. Some at 10. Some to your far left and some to your immediate right. Mechanics go right out the window.

If you can shoot the same during rapid fire, I envy you. I cannot. But I can when the gun is adjusted to me. Maybe some day, I will shoot the same both rapid and slow. When I do, I will readjust the rear sight the slight hair it’s moved now to to make me shoot center.

Wait until you try a pistol red dot.

 

[Cleck]

If the OP's targets look like the one posted above, it looks perfectly serviceable and more than adequate for self defense. If he wants to improve, I gave some suggestions for improving. If he wants the holes to be more in the center of the target without doing anything else, your suggestion was valid. Neither is wrong.

I enjoy shooting accurately. I like the feeling of concentrating on nothing else but lining up the sights and squeezing the trigger. Its almost like meditation for me. So that's how I approached the OP's problem.

Problem is that at up close/defensive pistol distances (is that even a thing?), yeah, the groups are fine. Right lung shredded. With the groups being fairly decent, I'm ok with them bc I'm doing something right. If I could transfer those a few inches to the target's left (my right) so that I'm shooting more centered, that would make me happy. It would also have me feeling that I could confidently shoot on target at a farther distance.

Wait until you try a pistol red dot.

I did. Before rona hit, I went and shot a friend's red dot equipped pistol. Shot exactly where I wanted to. Maybe it was the bigger gun or a different trigger, but it got me thinking.

 

[OnSight Firearms Training]

I need an adult, lol.
<snip>
Thoughts?

Have you considered taking a proper training class?

 

[Podmonkey]

The chart thing is garbage.
Take a class with Ben of @OnSight Firearms Training. I was able to get in a 1 on 1 session for a couple hours and Ben took me from mediocre pistol craft at best to ringing steel plates @ 50 yards.
Turns out it was my grip that was all dicked up, Ben showed me a proper grip and it started to fall in place from there. I still have plenty of room for improvement however.
There is a nice little steel silhouette bay for pistols at the range I go to, before I could barely hit anything farther than the 5 yard chickens, now I can clear the whole course right out to the 35 yard pigs without mising a beat. I get tired of setting yhe things back up now.

 

[Deplorable Me]

Have you tried right handed ammo?

 

[Deplorable Me]

Try rotating the ammo in your chamber.

 

[togmaster]

Here's a chart that I use that may help you.

 

[Deplorable Me]

That's for an over/under he needs a sidexside.

 

[dsdmmat]

Here's a chart that I use that may help you.

View attachment 75813 View attachment 75813

Have you tried right handed ammo?

Try rotating the ammo in your chamber.

That's for an over/under he needs a sidexside.

The op asked for an adult to help, you are not helping.

 

[Podmonkey]

The op asked for an adult to help, you are not helping.

"The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over but it can't. Not without your help. But you're not helping."

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN I'M NOT HELPING?"

"I mean you're not helping. Why is that?"

 

[kev74]

Here's a chart that I use that may help you.

View attachment 75813 View attachment 75813

The chart so nice you posted it twice!

 

[togmaster]

The chart so nice you posted it twice!

Better?

 

[Cleck]

Have you considered taking a proper training class?

Yes. I was going to have my friend come w/ me to the range, he's an NRA qualified pistol instructor, but in the absence of that since he's busy w/ work, yes, I'm open to a class. I do take a ccw class w/ Roch Personal Defense, but that focuses on shooting up close and personal and I can hit those targets. It became super apparent during a drill we did last year though - a 25y shoot, and I couldn't hit the target. Believe I was missing left.

So anyway, yes I have considered a class to correct my problem. I am not confident that drilling alone will fix it - at least not until I can have my faults pointed out and be told what to do.

The op asked for an adult to help, you are not helping.

Ah, so someone did read the entire post!

 

[nortatoga]

@Cleck if you seem to have a good grip it could also be in your stance? NPOA (natural point of aim) Try with a unloaded gun taking aim at your target, close your eyes breath in breath out, open your eyes are you still on target? (this would really work well if you had a SIRT gun or such.) If the aim point has move to the left bring your right foot back some. Like I said this is if your grip is good.

 

[Celt]

Haven't seen it mentioned, but have you tried keeping your trigger hand with a fairly loose grip and your support hand with a tight grip while shooting. This allows you better fine motor control over your trigger finger. Some people say it should be 60/40 or 70/30 with your support hand having the most control, but you just kind of have to play around with it until it feels comfortable.

 

[nortatoga]

Some ranges my not like you sweeping the gun like he does?

 

[OnSight Firearms Training]

Yes. I was going to have my friend come w/ me to the range, he's an NRA qualified pistol instructor, but in the absence of that since he's busy w/ work, yes, I'm open to a class. I do take a ccw class w/ Roch Personal Defense, but that focuses on shooting up close and personal and I can hit those targets. It became super apparent during a drill we did last year though - a 25y shoot, and I couldn't hit the target. Believe I was missing left.

So anyway, yes I have considered a class to correct my problem. I am not confident that drilling alone will fix it - at least not until I can have my faults pointed out and be told what to do.

Where are you located?