Washington State is worse than NY now.

[Edwardteach72]

Even in many or all shall issue states shit like drug use and involuntary commitments can and will bar you from getting licenses. Again show me where it says you have to take a fucking drug test or sign away you HIPAA rights. It doesnt. It asks the same fucking question as a 4473, do you sign off your HIPAA rights every time you buy a fun from an FFL? No you dont, but based on all this dumb ass logic you are trying to use I guess maybe you hand over your fucking medical records instead of just answering yes or no questions

 

[DaveM4P99]

Well wait...does it say that the applicant must simply STATE that they are not addicted?

Or does it say that the applicant CAN NOT BE addicted?

If the latter, that implies a drug test could be required...

 

[DaveM4P99]

Edward...you are wrong here. It is not the same as making STATEMENTS on a 4473. Those are your WORD. No further investigation required or mandated by the law.

But if PL400 says you can't be addicted to drugs, and that you can't have been committed...then that implies (spirit of the law) that they can ask for access to mental health records and do drug tests. Otherwise the investigator is not following the law by not confirming you are not "disqualified" per PL400.

As unconstitutional as it is.

Being told to make a statement is not the same as the law giving an actual disqualifying factor...which needs an investigation to prove one way or the other.

Again we need SHALL issue to prevent liberal counties from being able to do whatever they want to investigate.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Well wait...does it say that the applicant must simply STATE that they are not addicted?

Or does it say that the applicant CAN NOT BE addicted?

If the latter, that implies a drug test could be required...

How

 

[Edwardteach72]

Edward...you are wrong here. It is not the same as making STATEMENTS on a 4473. Those are your WORD. No further investigation required or mandated by the law.

But if PL400 says you can't be addicted to drugs, and that you can't have been committed...then that implies (spirit of the law) that they can ask for access to mental health records and do drug tests. Otherwise the investigator is not following the law.

As unconstitutional as it is.

Where does the law say they can request medical records?

 

[Edwardteach72]

@Willjr75 hey man looks like we got another lawyer that just joined the forum

 

[Marine Cpl]

There can only be one lawyer here.






Just kidding.

 

[DaveM4P99]

Ha. Edward...I've been a member of AR15.com and the now somewhat defunct NYFIREARMS websites since 2005...same screen name.

We've been over these laws many times over the past 13 years. I am not some newbie that just joined the internet gun forum world. Ha.

Laws don't always have to explicitly state every detail...Parking ticket laws don't spell out exactly HOW tickets MUST be paid...check, credit card, mowing fucking lawns...so the county can make their own requirements for payment. Parking ticket laws don't tell us what color the fucking parking ticket has to be...so the town decides that it is orange and white.

If PL400 says you can't have ever been committed to a mental institution, the only records of that are within your mental health records, and need to be accessed with a HIPPA form. Don't sign the release, then you don't get your permit.

Trust me, it's bullshit and not legal for them to require it...but it IS the reality of MAY issue...they don't have to issue your permit if you don't PROVE you are innocent. I know it's bullshit and there we agree.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Hahaha member of ar15.com well that explains a lot, sorry I actually try to avoid arguing with the handicap/disabled, wish I knew this before, so I guess I can step out now

 

[DaveM4P99]

Edward...In no way did I ever personally insult or attack you. We were debating the finer points of a confusing law.

Why the personal insult? We are on the same side here man. Just debating a dumb law.

No need to be angry or rude.

 

[Edwardteach72]

HIPAA rights do not need to be signed away, all of you that keep saying that you did, or those like MR. Cool ass ar15.comperator who say that the law is written to allow them to have you give up your medical records and now apparently take a drug test are the reason New York is the way it is and has gotten to this.

Yall will bitch about Cuomo but wont stand up to the ones actually stomping on your rights you just bend over take that shit then buy them dinner. Hell I bet most.of you give money to the NRA and suck them off as well thinking they will come save you from big scary Cuomo and Clinton and Feinstein

 

[Edwardteach72]

Edward...In no way did I ever personally insult or attack you. We were debating the finer points of a confusing law.

Why the personal insult? We are on the same side here man. Just debating a dumb law.

No need to be angry or rude.

Nope sorry at15.com = trash

The fact that you sound stupid proud about being a member of that for 13 years...

Not going to get involved with that shit storm, enjoy your fucking day,

 

[eris]

LOL a Ruger 10/22 just became an "assault" weapon in Washington. A state named after one of the leaders of a revolution aimed at self governance and liberty. SMDH


wasn't that the whole idea with having @eris and friends from The Liberal Gun Club join?

And none of us are happy about this new law either. I'd been thinking for few years that I might want to retire to Washsington someday (the Olympic Penninsula is a very nice place) but now I have to reconsider that.

 

[DaveM4P99]

Yikes...Edward...haha. Calm down man.

The point is...NY is MAY issue. Meaning, if you don't PROVE yourself to be qualified per PL400, they CAN deny you.

Trust me, it is unconstitutional that we are guilty until proven innocent when trying to exercise our rights...and NY's MAY issue laws need to be tossed out.

We are on the same side there...trust me. And I have fought long and hard with people on AR15.com, NYFirearms, SAF, SCOPE etc. I have donated tons of money and time to fight the cause. Hasn't helped much, but I am not giving up.

And I think you are wrong...we need to point out that NY can do whatever the fuck they want because it's MAY issue...The more we point out that they can require HIPPA violations and illegal drug tests, the more support we get from the courts.

When it comes to a county requiring training/safetly classes...THAT I believe is illegal and against the law, because NOWHERE does it say the applicant has to prove they are competent with a gun. But it DOES say we can not be addicted or ever involuntarily committed. So they can ask for whatever they want to prove one way or the other. The law doesn't say the METHODS they can or can't use to prove it...just that we have to prove it somehow. Signing the HIPPA form is the only way to prove it.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Well guess FFLs are now able to ask for people to sign over their HIPAA rights and make customers take a drug test. The ar15.com law whisperer has spoken

 

[DaveM4P99]

And Edward...I am not one to give in to NY laws...I am always the first to tell people that their pistol permit "restrictions" are illegal and mean nothing. I am the first to tell people that home inspections and safety classes are NOT in PL400 and are therefore illegal. When it's not in the law, I don't back down.

But if PL400 says you can't have been involuntarily committed, you have to prove that you've never been. That is the bitch of MAY issue.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Shit I broke my one rules of when i say I'm out i stay out. Tip of the hat for getting me back in.

As for the HIPAA, no you dont have to sign that, that is why there is a spot for the applicant to sign stating all the info that they provided (ie saying nope never been involuntarily committed) is correct under perjury of the law. So no that does not mean they can then be like well we still want access to all your medical records so give those up as well.

 

[DaveM4P99]

No...FFLs can't ask for HIPPA forms or take drug tests.

The 4473 requires that the buyer make statements under penalty of perjury.

Again it's because NY is MAY issue...you have to prove yourself worthy before the king gives you your rights.

If we were SHALL issue, THEY would have to prove you were guilty...you wouldn't have to provide them with any proof one way or the other.

But with MAY issue, we do.

 

[Edwardteach72]

No...FFLs can't ask for HIPPA forms or take drug tests.

The 4473 requires that the buyer make statements under penalty of perjury.

Again it's because NY is MAY issue...you have to prove yourself worthy before the king gives you your rights.

If we were SHALL issue, THEY would have to prove you were guilty...you wouldn't have to provide them with any proof one way or the other.

But with MAY issue, we do.

So do the pistol permit applications.

May issue means they dont have to issue it,

Not
We can ask for drug tests and HIPAA violations past what is written in the laws (aka New York doesnt require drug tests or signing away your HIPAA rights)

 

[ArmedCorgi]

What I have learned is that about the only consistent thing about the PP process, is the actual application form itself. Other than that each county has differing ways of doing it. In Rensselaer county, you have to take the pistol safety course, fill out your application, make an appointment with the sheriff's dept for finger printing and application submission. At your finger printing appointment you are given reference sheets for your 4 references to fill out and give back to you. After you get those back, you submit them to the Sheriff's dept. And then after they are done doing the bg check, your application gets fwd to the clerks office for a judge to sign.
However, in the town of East Greenbush (which is a town in Rensselaer county), you have to pick up your application packet from the local pd, in it is a waiver for access to your mental health records. They also make you go to a third party for finger printing and they make you submit your application back to them, instead of the Sherrif's dept., where they do their own bg check and they then fwd it to the clerks office. The Sheriff's dept. is bypassed. No one else in Rensselaer county as far as I know gets that waiver. I have no idea how they get away with doing it. But if you go to the East Greenbush pd and ask for a PP application, you will see they include that extra paperwork.

 

[DaveM4P99]

OK good debate...and I am sorry you had to resort to insulting me...

But I think we are both right in some areas...

PL400 does NOT say we HAVE to give up our medical records. You are 100% correct.

PL400 does IMPLY that we have to prove ourselves innocent and worthy to get a permit. So if we don't prove that we've never been committed, no permit.

Yes it is unconstitutional.

If a law says that a commercial truck driver can't have any DWIs, doesn't that give the transportation agency the power to have them sign away their driving record privacy rights to prove they don't have a DWI?

Driving is not a right, it is a privilege. They can require what they want.

Owning a handgun in NY is not a right according to NY law, unfortunately. Not until the courts help us out. So they can require whatever they want to satisfy the requirements in PL400. And proving you were never committed is one of those requirements.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Oh a

OK good debate...and I am sorry you had to resort to insulting me...

But I think we are both right in some areas...

PL400 does NOT say we HAVE to give up our medical records. You are 100% correct.

PL400 does IMPLY that we have to prove ourselves innocent and worthy to get a permit. So if we don't prove that we've never been committed, no permit.

Yes it is unconstitutional.

The 4473 implies that we have to prove we dont smoke lsd or have been committed in the same sense that the NY PL400 does for a pistol permit

 

[Edwardteach72]

We prove that we haven't been involuntarily committed by signing a form under penalty of perjury stating we have not been involuntarily committed

 

[Edwardteach72]

What I have learned is that about the only consistent thing about the PP process, is the actual application form itself. Other than that each county has differing ways of doing it. In Rensselaer county, you have to take the pistol safety course, fill out your application, make an appointment with the sheriff's dept for finger printing and application submission. At your finger printing appointment you are given reference sheets for your 4 references to fill out and give back to you. After you get those back, you submit them to the Sheriff's dept. And then after they are done doing the bg check, your application gets fwd to the clerks office for a judge to sign.
However, in the town of East Greenbush (which is a town in Rensselaer county), you have to pick up your application packet from the local pd, in it is a waiver for access to your mental health records. They also make you go to a third party for finger printing and they make you submit your application back to them, instead of the Sherrif's dept., where they do their own bg check and they then fwd it to the clerks office. The Sheriff's dept. is bypassed. No one else in Rensselaer county as far as I know gets that waiver. I have no idea how they get away with doing it. But if you go to the East Greenbush pd and ask for a PP application, you will see they include that extra paperwork.

They get away with it because the people living there allow them to get away with it then come on forums and bitch that Cuomo is denying them their rights

 

[spat]

Oh a


The 4473 implies that we have to prove we dont smoke lsd or have been committed in the same sense that the NY PL400 does for a pistol permit

What you don't seem to understand is that in many counties in N.Y. the issuing authority frequently add their own additional requirements beyond what is in the law.

The fact that N.Y. is may issue facilitates this. If some judge decided he was only going to issue permits to people willing to dance the hokey pokey in court, then nobody unwilling to dance would get a permit.

 

[DaveM4P99]

If PL400 only said "the applicant must state under penalty of perjury that they have never been committed" - then yes, Edward, you would be correct.

But it says that the applicant can not have ever been committed...Not that we have to STATE we haven't. So it implies we have to prove ourselves innocent due to the MAY issue wording.

Nowhere does it say the applicant has to be competent with a gun. So they SHOULD NOT be able to argue training or safety classes are required. That is 100% BS.

And something like saying the applicant has to be "of good moral character" is also bullshit, because that is 100% subjective.

But PL400 does say the applicant can not have been committed. That is a YES or a NO. 100% objective. So we are forced to prove it...even though it is unconstitutional. I think we agree there.

 

[Edwardteach72]

What you don't seem to understand is that in many counties in N.Y. the issuing authority frequently add their own additional requirements beyond what is in the law.

The fact that N.Y. is may issue facilitates this. If some judge decided he was only going to issue permits to people willing to dance the hokey pokey in court, then nobody unwilling to dance would get a permit.

And what I am saying is the only reason they get away with this is because people allow them to

Just like restrictions

 

[ArmedCorgi]

If PL400 only said "the applicant must state under penalty of perjury that they have never been committed" - then yes, Edward, you would be correct.

But it says that the applicant can not have ever been committed...Not that we have to STATE we haven't. So it implies we have to prove ourselves innocent due to the MAY issue wording.

Nowhere does it say the applicant has to be competent with a gun. So they SHOULD NOT be able to argue training or safety classes are required. That is 100% BS.

But PL400 does say the applicant can not have been committed. So we are forced to prove it...even though it is unconstitutional. I think we agree there.

I believe it asks, "involuntarily committed". They wouldn't need a HIPPA waiver to find out if a judge had you involuntarily committed.

 

[spat]

And what I am saying is the only reason they get away with this is because people allow them to

What is your recourse ? To simply accept their denial when you apply for the permit ?

 

[camper4lyfe]

And what I am saying is the only reason they get away with this is because people allow them to

Just like restrictions

We "allow" them to because normal people can't afford the court and lawyer fees