What would this firearm be?

[C3D]

I'd like to know what authority people can cite to tell me it is not a pistol for purposes of Article 265 of the Penal Law.

The Federal law treatment is an interesting discussion, but ultimately irrelevant because New York has its own definitions and case law and is not bound in any way by how Federal law (and the ATF) view the item.

There is a substantial risk that a New York court would find this to be a pistol. e.g., you will have an encounter with the wrong cop who makes an arrest and an anti-gun prosecutor who brings a case through Criminal Court and then up through the Appellate Division and ultimately the Court of Appeals. I am pretty sure the NYS Court of Appeals is the most anti-gun court in the nation; and even if by some luck your conviction is ultimately tossed out the personal cost of fighting the felony case will ruin your life.

Unless and until there is a defining piece of NYS legislation, an opinion of the Attorney General, or a court decision at an appeals level that is binding in your judicial Department, this is a risky undertaking.

 

[stuck in ny]

Why would you fix the mag?

I was talking about basic legallity of the item (whether it had to go on a pp or some other such nonsense), not taking un-safe into account.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I'd like to know what authority people can cite to tell me it is not a pistol for purposes of Article 265 of the Penal Law.

The Federal law treatment is an interesting discussion, but ultimately irrelevant because New York has its own definitions and case law and is not bound in any way by how Federal law (and the ATF) view the item.

There is a substantial risk that a New York court would find this to be a pistol. e.g., you will have an encounter with the wrong cop who makes an arrest and an anti-gun prosecutor who brings a case through Criminal Court and then up through the Appellate Division and ultimately the Court of Appeals. I am pretty sure the NYS Court of Appeals is the most anti-gun court in the nation; and even if by some luck your conviction is ultimately tossed out the personal cost of fighting the felony case will ruin your life.

Unless and until there is a defining piece of NYS legislation, an opinion of the Attorney General, or a court decision at an appeals level that is binding in your judicial Department, this is a risky undertaking.

Have you ever served in a Grand Jury? If so, you would see that in order to get prosecuted for something, it has to be exact. You can get arrested all day long but to get convicted, you have to break something from an actual penal law. Cases get dropped all the time because of this.

So let's say you buy a stripped lower listed as "OTHER." Some cop arrests you for it saying it's an illegal pistol and charges you with Criminal Possession of a Firearm.

When it gets to the Grand Jury, they have to provide the jurors with the NYS definition of Firearm. This will not fit that definition. It was not manufacturered or sold as a pistol. it was listed as an "OTHER" by the FFL to the Feds. It would be a hard sell to jurors that it was a pistol.

 

[Airborneguy]

It's a pistol with a forward grip illegally installed and you'd be found guilty of possessing it quite easily in NY. Actually, your attorney would seriously press hard for you to take the offerred plea so as to avoid a year or two in jail.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It's a pistol with a forward grip illegally installed and you'd be found guilty of possessing it quite easily in NY. Actually, your attorney would seriously press hard for you to take the offerred plea so as to avoid a year or two in jail.

What's the NYS definition of pistol?

 

[Airborneguy]

Anything with a barrel shorter than 14.5" with something stuck to the end of it will be charged as a pistol.

Not gonna argue, but good luck, build it and go show the state troopers. Sticking a handle on the front that takes two seconds to remove doesn't change the gun in the eyes of the law. That's obviously an arrest and you all know it. That's why you go to amazing lenths to create "handgrips" that aren't pistol grips. You and I both know this franken-gun isn't legal in NY.

I couldn't care less, I'd laugh if I saw that thing. But my laughter doesn't make it legal and being honest about it doesn't make me a Nazi.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Anything with a barrel shorter than 14.5" with something stuck to the end of it will be charged as a pistol.

Not gonna argue, but good luck, build it and go show the state troopers. Sticking a handle on the front that takes two seconds to remove doesn't change the gun in the eyes of the law. That's obviously an arrest and you all know it. That's why you go to amazing lenths to create "handgrips" that aren't pistol grips. You and I both know this franken-gun isn't legal in NY.

I couldn't care less, I'd laugh if I saw that thing. But my laughter doesn't make it legal and being honest about it doesn't make me a Nazi.

I understand where you are coming from but nothing in the law says that a barrel shorter than 14.5 inches is a pistol.

What if the barrel is 16 inches? Is it a rifle under NY law?

 

[Airborneguy]

Then the grip, detacheable magazine and pistol grip would make it clearly what Safe defines as an assault weapon. The lack of butt stock wouldn't matter.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Then the grip, detacheable magazine and pistol grip would make it clearly what Safe defines as an assault weapon. The lack of butt stock wouldn't matter.

I guess you aren't seeing where I'm coming from.

To be a rifle, it has to be designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder.

The fact that stripped lowers are sold as "Other" is because they can be built into rifles, pistols, and AOW. That shows that the receiver isn't only designed to be a rifle.

 

[stuck in ny]

It's a pistol with a forward grip illegally installed and you'd be found guilty of possessing it quite easily in NY. Actually, your attorney would seriously press hard for you to take the offerred plea so as to avoid a year or two in jail.

THen how did franklin sell it then?

 

[Airborneguy]

But its not a stripped reciever once you build it. A reciever is a "firearm" by law as far as the serial number is required, but NY law requires "capable of firing a shot". This hypothetical weapon would ilicit a CPW charge unless one possesed a pistol permit with this listed on it. 100%. Anything else is mental gymnastics of internet legal knowledge.

 

[stuck in ny]

What's the NYS definition of pistol?

It over 26" and has a vertical forgrip. Therefore it CANNOT BE a pistol as per the nfa. NY has no authorization to bypass the nfa.

 

[Airborneguy]

THen how did franklin sell it then?

Just the same as plenty of companies sell silencers: if you have the proper permits or live in a state with different laws than NY, that monstrosity would be perfectly legal. Did you see me say it was illegal everywhere under every condition? Of course not, because I didn't.

 

[stuck in ny]

But its not a stripped reciever once you build it. A reciever is a "firearm" by law as far as the serial number is required, but NY law requires "capable of firing a shot". This hypothetical weapon would ilicit a CPW charge unless one possesed a pistol permit with this listed on it. 100%. Anything else is mental gymnastics of internet legal knowledge.

It has already been done and it is not a pistol or an sbr. Its a "firearm", same loophole as the 14"barrel 26"OAL PGO non-shotgun.

 

[Airborneguy]

Build one and carry it then, it wouldn't cost more than $400 to build that thing. Good luck. Cheers.

 

[stuck in ny]

Just the same as plenty of companies sell silencers: if you have the proper permits or live in a state with different laws than NY, that monstrosity would be perfectly legal. Did you see me say it was illegal everywhere under every condition? Of course not, because I didn't.

I don't thnik your following. If your argument were true (it being a type of pistol) they won't be able to sell it even federally. The VG would make it an "any other weapon"-weapons made FROM a pistol with a VG, disguised guns (canes, smoking pipes, pens), etc.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Just the same as plenty of companies sell silencers: if you have the proper permits or live in a state with different laws than NY, that monstrosity would be perfectly legal. Did you see me say it was illegal everywhere under every condition? Of course not, because I didn't.

But it isn't a pistol. A silencer is a silencer no matter where you go. Why would this not be a pistol in another state but one here? It makes no sense.

 

[Airborneguy]

The front grip is a removeable piece. It does not change any definition legally the way you think it does. Like I said, build it and carry it.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Build one and carry it then, it wouldn't cost more than $400 to build that thing. Good luck. Cheers.

That's why people don't and just add a goofy stock. But legally speaking, you can.

 

[stuck in ny]

The front grip is a removeable piece. It does not change any definition legally the way you think it does. Like I said, build it and carry it.

It does change the definition. The atf forced a company years ago to discontinue a type of replica closed-bolt thompson styled pistol over the VG forend. They ruled it was an AOW.

 

[Marine Cpl]

The front grip is a removeable piece. It does not change any definition legally the way you think it does. Like I said, build it and carry it.

But it does if a collapsible stock is added?

 

[Airborneguy]

It does change the definition. The atf forced a company years ago to discontinue a type of replica closed-bolt thompson styled pistol over the VG forend. They ruled it was an AOW.

That's not the same as a two-second removeable grip and you know that. That's an integral part of the firearm.

 

[Airborneguy]

But it does if a collapsible stock is added?

By NY definition, yes. Clearly written in the law.

 

[stuck in ny]

That's not the same as a two-second removeable grip and you know that. That's an integral part of the firearm.

That opens another can of worms then. What defines removable for instance the carved ak vertical foregrips?

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

That opens another can of worms then. What defines removable for instance the carved ak vertical foregrips?

That vertical grip is easily removable and its a rifle anyway. But why argue about this? If you want to build it then just do it. No need to convince others it's legal.

 

[Marine Cpl]

By NY definition, yes. Clearly written in the law.

Yet an AR with no stock, a forward grip, and a short barrel is?

What you are saying is that if it isn't a rifle, it must be a pistol.

 

[Airborneguy]

That opens another can of worms then. What defines removable for instance the carved ak vertical foregrips?

No good in NY.

I think the problem here is you're trying to parse laws much more minutely than reality plays out in court. The above would be charged as an assault weapon. No one would care about the front grip other than the describe it emotionally in court to further sway the jury.

You guys need to understand the reality of how charges are arrived at and how the case proceeds. Its not as complicated as these conversations love to make it. If it walks like a duck, it's a duck. There's a reason why we have a Penal Law, a procedural law and definitions all as separate sections of law.

In NY, it's simple: CPW firearm is the charge. I believe of the top of my head that starts with CPW 3 in some cases but usually means 2 or 1. Its up to your defense attorney to play the mental games like what goes on here, but guess what? You're going down for CPW if you carry the firearm you guys arw describing here. 100%.

 

[Marine Cpl]

That vertical grip is easily removable and its a rifle anyway. But why argue about this? If you want to build it then just do it. No need to convince others it's legal.

Because it's a forum. That's how the fixed magazine and Thordsen was born.

 

[stuck in ny]

No good in NY.

I think the problem here is you're trying to parse laws much more minutely than reality plays out in court. The above would be charged as an assault weapon. No one would care about the front grip other than the describe it emotionally in court to further sway the jury.

You guys need to understand the reality of how charges are arrived at and how the case proceeds. Its not as complicated as these conversations love to make it. If it walks like a duck, it's a duck. There's a reason why we have a Penal Law, a procedural law and definitions all as separate sections of law.

In NY, it's simple: CPW firearm is the charge. I believe of the top of my head that starts with CPW 3 in some cases but usually means 2 or 1. Its up to your defense attorney to play the mental games like what goes on here, but guess what? You're going down for CPW if you carry the firearm you guys arw describing here. 100%.

I know that the rifle in the pic is banned. I'm saying if you put that wood forend on a pistol ak (assume even fixed mag or bolt action) you would be making an AOW.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Because it's a forum. That's how the fixed magazine and Thordsen was born.

But we're not designing anything here. The OP wanted to build something and got advice. The OP hasn't chimed in again btw. Then someone else wanted to do something similar. They are pretty certain that it's legal so they should just do it. Two pages in I think anyone else that want's to do something similar can make an "informed" decision. I just want to see pictures if anyone does it.