Jmac00
.475 A&M Magnum
seems like a pretty useless cartridge to me. why was this thing born?
who invented the 300 blackout....and why???
- Thread starter Jmac00
- Start date
suppressed AR's
ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
JD Jones created the 300 Whisper in the early '90's. Advanced Armament Corp. tweeked the 300 Whisper design just enough to get around paying royalties to Jones. They were trying to fulfill a military requirement for replicating the 7.62x39 ballistics with super-sonic loads and hard hitting sub-sonic loads out of the M4 platform with minimal changes to the rifle. It pretty much does that. It's also very good out of short barrels (relative to most other AR calibers).
For NY'ers who can't use suppressors, it has marginal value. Maybe as a quietish HD or short range hunting rifle using subs? There are many other AR-15 calibers that have better energy curves with supers though. Most aren't just a barrel change but if you're going to the trouble to get/build a custom upper, a new bolt and mags isn't much of an additional burden, IMO.
If we could have SBR's and suppressors, I'd probably own one for HD and hunting heavy cover.
For NY'ers who can't use suppressors, it has marginal value. Maybe as a quietish HD or short range hunting rifle using subs? There are many other AR-15 calibers that have better energy curves with supers though. Most aren't just a barrel change but if you're going to the trouble to get/build a custom upper, a new bolt and mags isn't much of an additional burden, IMO.
If we could have SBR's and suppressors, I'd probably own one for HD and hunting heavy cover.
Aimtite
.40 S&W
I got my first 300 whisper (original caliber same as blackout) from JD Jones as soon as it came out. This was long before all the blackout fever and internet marketing mambo jambo.
Great round for subsonic shooting but not too much of practical application. Also in NYS because no suppressors allowed. Otherwise it would be
great for plinkin around w/o disturbing neighbors. As supersonic cartridge it sucks ballistically talking. Mainly because of the lack of case capacity.
Great round for subsonic shooting but not too much of practical application. Also in NYS because no suppressors allowed. Otherwise it would be
great for plinkin around w/o disturbing neighbors. As supersonic cartridge it sucks ballistically talking. Mainly because of the lack of case capacity.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
It was made to make money. New cartridges are usually gimmicks for the most part. Kind of how new fishing lures are designed to catch fisherman, not fish.
speedkills27
6.5 Creedmoor
without suppressors i see no fun in it
Absolutely. A buck tail jig is all you need.
It is a good short range AR cartridge even with super sonic loads. No other 30 caliber cartridge can be put into an AR as cheaply or without changing more than a barrel.
There are pluses and minuses to ever cartridge.
A friend of mine is in his late 70s and does not enjoy the full power loads of his rifles anymore. I let him use my Ruger ranch in 300 blackout and he put 15 rounds down range without any pain. He was able to enjoy shooting again.
For zero to 200 yards it is a fun gun to shoot. It can be used for hunting in places that do not allow 223 as a hunting cartridge. So a barrel swap and you are in business.
For people that don't reload the cartridge doesn't make sense. If it ain't for you, it ain't for you. I have a lot of other rifle cartridges to shoot and I do shoot a lot of rounds down range weekly. I bring a 300 blackout to the range every week. I don't do that with every cartridge.
There are pluses and minuses to ever cartridge.
A friend of mine is in his late 70s and does not enjoy the full power loads of his rifles anymore. I let him use my Ruger ranch in 300 blackout and he put 15 rounds down range without any pain. He was able to enjoy shooting again.
For zero to 200 yards it is a fun gun to shoot. It can be used for hunting in places that do not allow 223 as a hunting cartridge. So a barrel swap and you are in business.
For people that don't reload the cartridge doesn't make sense. If it ain't for you, it ain't for you. I have a lot of other rifle cartridges to shoot and I do shoot a lot of rounds down range weekly. I bring a 300 blackout to the range every week. I don't do that with every cartridge.
Jmac00
.475 A&M Magnum
interesting insight, thanx for that
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
FrankenCub
.338 Win Mag
AFAIC It's a great deer hunting round, I've taken quite a few with the 300 Whisper out of a TC Contender.
Uzi
.308 Win
I like it. Way past the subsonic only benefit at this point, that's old news from development stages. In NY you can make a BETTER ar style pistol with the 308 30 caliber pills and retain velocity out of nearly any length pistol barrel, which you certainly cannot do with 5.56-.223. The only downside to the round is mostly the ammo cost. I can use many interchangeable 300 whisper rounds no problem. Too many people don't keep up with the advances. Some are pushing around 2800 feet per second. Many after 200 yards actually carry more energy than the 7.62 x 39... 
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
One thing is to find it suitable for ones practices and desires but the other is to start making assumptions that are not real.
The supersonic speed spectrum to be effective is too short. Lets remember that fast killing calibers are characteristic for their speed. Ideal above 2100fps upon impact and while prime bullet manufacturers advertise mechanical activation up to 1,800fps the lower we go, the worse it gets, exponentially. Specially if we add the low sectional density of 308 light for caliber varmint bullets. You see other than the 30 carbine, 110gr and 120gr bullets are intended for varmint and coyote hunts to be sent at speeds over 3000 fps like a 308 for example.
Also the whisper/blackout doesnt have the capacity of the 7.62x39 so if we take a premium hunting bullet of 130gr to 150gr from the rusian round it is a superior round at any distance.
The whisper doesnt have the powder capacity to do that.
For example, the 7.62x39 can send a 123gr solid tsx faster than the whisper can send a 110gr ttsx...
7.62x39 Russian 123gr Barnes TSX Lead Free 20rds
150gr 7.62x39 from double tap and corbon are also more powerful rounds.
Dont use cheap steel case ammo to hunt, even the 152gr Yugoslavian. They are not well made to expand.
Also from short barrels the 7.62x39 can be pumped to be a lot faster. Even with the superior choices of the 7.62x39 they are not ideal hunting cartriges as they fall into the light for caliber slow cartriges.
There are much better choices to harvest game with confidence.
I am not a whisper hater, I have one and it can be a lot of fun. But we have to be realistic. Dont hate me for this. I am trying to be practical and realistic and stay away from the fashions.
The supersonic speed spectrum to be effective is too short. Lets remember that fast killing calibers are characteristic for their speed. Ideal above 2100fps upon impact and while prime bullet manufacturers advertise mechanical activation up to 1,800fps the lower we go, the worse it gets, exponentially. Specially if we add the low sectional density of 308 light for caliber varmint bullets. You see other than the 30 carbine, 110gr and 120gr bullets are intended for varmint and coyote hunts to be sent at speeds over 3000 fps like a 308 for example.
Also the whisper/blackout doesnt have the capacity of the 7.62x39 so if we take a premium hunting bullet of 130gr to 150gr from the rusian round it is a superior round at any distance.
The whisper doesnt have the powder capacity to do that.
For example, the 7.62x39 can send a 123gr solid tsx faster than the whisper can send a 110gr ttsx...
7.62x39 Russian 123gr Barnes TSX Lead Free 20rds
150gr 7.62x39 from double tap and corbon are also more powerful rounds.
Dont use cheap steel case ammo to hunt, even the 152gr Yugoslavian. They are not well made to expand.
Also from short barrels the 7.62x39 can be pumped to be a lot faster. Even with the superior choices of the 7.62x39 they are not ideal hunting cartriges as they fall into the light for caliber slow cartriges.
There are much better choices to harvest game with confidence.
I am not a whisper hater, I have one and it can be a lot of fun. But we have to be realistic. Dont hate me for this. I am trying to be practical and realistic and stay away from the fashions.
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ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
What's the setup that's getting 2800fps from a Blackout? I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm genuinely curious.
Uzi
.308 Win
You weren't coming across as one. The lehigh defense 78 grain CQ has a velocity of around 2800 out of a measured 10.5" barrel. I think all my defensive ammo is around 2500-2600fps. I have a 7.5" barrel. I absolutely LOVE the pistol so much.
Eddie Gunks
.338 Win Mag
Uzi
.308 Win
Except it's not 30 caliber?.....
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Leigh defense has been creating some solid copper and brass bullets for calibers to produce high speed ammo.
results are mixed across the board. Some have been good specially ammo for small pistols.
This is the 30 cal bullet they created with 78grains and aluminum tip.
.308 Close Quarters 78gr Bullet for the 300 Blackout / Whisper
The main problem with bullets so light for the caliber is the very low sectional density ( 0.117 in this case) that, while it gives flat shooting and minimum recoil it produces
a power factor almost identical to a 30 carbine with 110gr from a 10" barrel (210 PF) give and take.
If one likes short barrels, lighter bullets and fast powders take a look at the 7.62x39 loaded with 85 tkv or 100gr .310 pistol bullets. This will produce 2900/85 or 2600-2650fps
from a 10" barrel with a 100gr bullet and will give a 266 power factor more or less.
If one likes big see through holes the 458 socom will launch a 300gr bullet to 1,600+ from a SBR. The power factor doubles at 483 and remains at 407 at 100 yards.
The 6.8spcII pushes a Barnes 85gr TSX solid copper bullet to 3100fps from a 16" carbine, 2,900 from a 13" and 2,830 from a 10" pistol. These have a sectional density
of .155 and yield a power factor of 241. This is important because the power factor at 100 yards (211) is about the same than the whisper 78gr at the muzzle.
The TSX have a good price and amazing track record so we don't have to do any research on them to shoot from SBR / pistol.
68SPCII is very popular with hard bodied game.
Consistency is the name of the game.
One of the reasons I built the 35 gunner was to get to shoot pistol bullets from 10" barrels. The pistols we are going to use for
hunting this season lauch a 140gr bullet at ~2580fps from the pistol. Power factor is 361 which is brutal for a 7.62x39 cat.
Still we will use the 200gr FTX for large deer or bear that we have tested. Cannot argue with 200gr sent at AK47 speeds.
Gunner might chime in. He has seen the destruction of the 200gr 35 caliber first hand.
still the whisper is fun.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
BTW I like to provide power factor vs energy because it represents in a more meaninful way the potential of a round specially at
a distance / on the target. Speed is important but momentum too and that is a function of weight and speed. For squirrels, prairy dogs, and
small coyotes momentum is not so critical and that is why super flat shooting hyper velocity light weight bullets are preferred.
a distance / on the target. Speed is important but momentum too and that is a function of weight and speed. For squirrels, prairy dogs, and
small coyotes momentum is not so critical and that is why super flat shooting hyper velocity light weight bullets are preferred.
Amp
.177 BB
a lot of good points said here. I bought a 300 BLK upper because it was a simple ~$200 addition to my AR15. It takes the same bolt and magazine. Was it an impulse buy? Probably. But if you want a inexpensive .30 cal semiauto and already have an AR, I would recommend looking into it. However, there are much more capable .30 cal semis out there but you have to pay to play.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I believe that every barrel regardless of caliber should come with its own bolt headspaced to it to achieve maximum accuracy and performance.
But in any case for those interested in calibers that use the same 223 bolts and magazines there is a huge number of calibers that do that.
This is what you find in the below list....
A) Cartrige Name.
B) Rifle or Pistol Round?
C) What Bolt does it use? 223R and 6.8Bolts are the strongest. I put AK for the 7.62x39 but only a few manufactures make quality strong ones for these cartriges.
That is what I use in the gunner. 308W means the same diameter bolt face but still AR15. Some are for low pressure and cannot take much heat like the 458 socom or bushmaster.
The strong 308w bolt faces for the AR15 are pretty hard to find. WSSM is proprietary bolt and carrier group like the 30 RAR that is pretty much dying courtesy of remington.
D) What magazines can use. 223R-M means a modified version of it.
E) Is ammo available if one doesn't reload? 0=No, 1=Some, 2= Plentiful or at least reasonable assortment.
F) Does it give a performance improvement at 100 yards in terms of speed and/or energy vs. the 223? Power or speed at the muzzle are meaningless.
I am sure I missed quite a few but these should cover the most popular commercial and wildcats.
AR15 Calibers Type Tried Bolt Magazines Ammo 100Yard
10mm Pistol N 10mm 10mm 2 No
20 Practical Rifle Y 223R 223R 0 Yes
204 Ruger Rifle N 223R 223R 2 Yes
222 rem Rifle N 223R 223R 2 No
223 AI Rifle Y 223R 223R 0 Yes
223 Remington Rifle Y 223R 223R 2 NA
223x42 Rifle Y 68spc 68spc 0 Yes
25 WSSM Rifle N WSSM WSSM 1 Yes
25x45 Rifle N 223R 223R 1 Yes
30 BR Rifle N 308W AK&6.8 0 Yes
30 BRX Rifle N 308W AK&6.8 0 Yes
30 Remington AR Rifle Y 308plus 223R-M 1 Yes
300 OSSM Rifle N WSSM WSSM 1 Yes
300Whisper/Blackout Rifle Y 223R 223R 2 No
30-68 Herret Rifle Y 68spc 68spc-M 0 Yes
35 AR Gunner Rifle Y AK AK&6.8 0 Yes
357 SIG Pistol Y 40cal 40cal 2 No
358 Hoosier Rifle Y 308W AK&6.8 0 Yes
358/.25 WSSM Rifle N WSSM WSSM 0 Yes
40 S&W Pistol N 40cal 40cal 2 No
45 ACP Pistol N 45acp 45acp 2 No
450 Bushmaster Rifle Y 308W 223R 2 Yes
458 SOCOM Rifle Y 308W 223RM 2 Yes
50 BEOWULF Rifle N AK 223R-M 1 Yes
6.5 BR Rifle Y 308W AK&6.8 0 Yes
6.5 BRX Rifle N 308W AK&6.8 0 Yes
6.5 TCU Rifle Y 223R 223R 0 Yes
6.5/.25 WSSM Rifle N WSSM WSSM 0 Yes
6.5Grendel Rifle Y AK Grendel&AK 2 Yes
6.5LBC Rifle Y AK Grendel&AK 2 Yes
6.5x42 Rifle Y 223R 223R 0 Yes
6.8 SPC Rifle Y 68spc 68spc 2 Yes
6mm norma BR Rifle Y 308W AK&6.8 2 Yes
6mmAR Rifle N AK AK 0 Yes
6x45 Rifle Y 223R 223R 1 Yes
6x45(long) Rifle Y 223R 223R 0 Yes
7.62x39 Rifle Y AK AK 2 No
7.62x40 Rifle Y 223R 223R 1 No
7mmx40 Rifle Y 223R 223R 0 Yes
7mmx42 Rifle Y 68spc 68spc 0 Yes
9mm Luger Pistol Y 9mm 9mm 2 No
9x25 Pistol N 10mm 10mm 1 No
Tokarev Pistol N 9mm 38super 2 No
But in any case for those interested in calibers that use the same 223 bolts and magazines there is a huge number of calibers that do that.
This is what you find in the below list....
A) Cartrige Name.
B) Rifle or Pistol Round?
C) What Bolt does it use? 223R and 6.8Bolts are the strongest. I put AK for the 7.62x39 but only a few manufactures make quality strong ones for these cartriges.
That is what I use in the gunner. 308W means the same diameter bolt face but still AR15. Some are for low pressure and cannot take much heat like the 458 socom or bushmaster.
The strong 308w bolt faces for the AR15 are pretty hard to find. WSSM is proprietary bolt and carrier group like the 30 RAR that is pretty much dying courtesy of remington.
D) What magazines can use. 223R-M means a modified version of it.
E) Is ammo available if one doesn't reload? 0=No, 1=Some, 2= Plentiful or at least reasonable assortment.
F) Does it give a performance improvement at 100 yards in terms of speed and/or energy vs. the 223? Power or speed at the muzzle are meaningless.
I am sure I missed quite a few but these should cover the most popular commercial and wildcats.
AR15 Calibers Type Tried Bolt Magazines Ammo 100Yard
10mm Pistol N 10mm 10mm 2 No
20 Practical Rifle Y 223R 223R 0 Yes
204 Ruger Rifle N 223R 223R 2 Yes
222 rem Rifle N 223R 223R 2 No
223 AI Rifle Y 223R 223R 0 Yes
223 Remington Rifle Y 223R 223R 2 NA
223x42 Rifle Y 68spc 68spc 0 Yes
25 WSSM Rifle N WSSM WSSM 1 Yes
25x45 Rifle N 223R 223R 1 Yes
30 BR Rifle N 308W AK&6.8 0 Yes
30 BRX Rifle N 308W AK&6.8 0 Yes
30 Remington AR Rifle Y 308plus 223R-M 1 Yes
300 OSSM Rifle N WSSM WSSM 1 Yes
300Whisper/Blackout Rifle Y 223R 223R 2 No
30-68 Herret Rifle Y 68spc 68spc-M 0 Yes
35 AR Gunner Rifle Y AK AK&6.8 0 Yes
357 SIG Pistol Y 40cal 40cal 2 No
358 Hoosier Rifle Y 308W AK&6.8 0 Yes
358/.25 WSSM Rifle N WSSM WSSM 0 Yes
40 S&W Pistol N 40cal 40cal 2 No
45 ACP Pistol N 45acp 45acp 2 No
450 Bushmaster Rifle Y 308W 223R 2 Yes
458 SOCOM Rifle Y 308W 223RM 2 Yes
50 BEOWULF Rifle N AK 223R-M 1 Yes
6.5 BR Rifle Y 308W AK&6.8 0 Yes
6.5 BRX Rifle N 308W AK&6.8 0 Yes
6.5 TCU Rifle Y 223R 223R 0 Yes
6.5/.25 WSSM Rifle N WSSM WSSM 0 Yes
6.5Grendel Rifle Y AK Grendel&AK 2 Yes
6.5LBC Rifle Y AK Grendel&AK 2 Yes
6.5x42 Rifle Y 223R 223R 0 Yes
6.8 SPC Rifle Y 68spc 68spc 2 Yes
6mm norma BR Rifle Y 308W AK&6.8 2 Yes
6mmAR Rifle N AK AK 0 Yes
6x45 Rifle Y 223R 223R 1 Yes
6x45(long) Rifle Y 223R 223R 0 Yes
7.62x39 Rifle Y AK AK 2 No
7.62x40 Rifle Y 223R 223R 1 No
7mmx40 Rifle Y 223R 223R 0 Yes
7mmx42 Rifle Y 68spc 68spc 0 Yes
9mm Luger Pistol Y 9mm 9mm 2 No
9x25 Pistol N 10mm 10mm 1 No
Tokarev Pistol N 9mm 38super 2 No
FrankenCub
.338 Win Mag
It's been a while since I owned my Whisper, think it was a 10 or 12" barrel. I kept what I considered it's effective range in mind all the time and never took a shot over 100yds. Kept my freezer full lol. Gotta agree Meke, it was fun.
That's a bigger list available for the AR platform than I realized. Still, only two on there that interest me. 204 Ruger so I can use the AR for Yotes during deer season (yeah screwed up regs here) and the 458 SOCOM, just because
That's a bigger list available for the AR platform than I realized. Still, only two on there that interest me. 204 Ruger so I can use the AR for Yotes during deer season (yeah screwed up regs here) and the 458 SOCOM, just because
Mec I think your mistaken in terms of energy at 100 verses 223/5.56 compare supersonic to super sonic.
From the hornady web site the energy in ft lbs from a:
5.56 out of a 20 inch barrel are as follows
75 grain 1192
55 grain 916
223 from a 24 inch barrel are as follows
55 grain 958
35 grain 874
40 grain 937
50 grain 915
53 grain 1135
55 grain FMJ 983
55 grain v/z max 995
60 grain sp 988
68 grain HPBT 1098
75 grain 1209
300 BLK from a 16 inch barrel.
125 grain 1036
135 grain 985
110 grain GMX 1060
110 grain v/z max 1217 (50 yard)
The 5.56 and 223 numbers are taken from barrels 4-8 inches longer than those of the 300 BLK and it still can produce more energy with the 110 grain load of every load except the 68 and 75 grain 223 match loads. Now if you compare apples to apples and shoot them all out of a 16 inch ( which is where a lot of these AR uppers are at) the numbers for both (223, 5.56) would be even lower compared to the 300 than they already are.
From the hornady web site the energy in ft lbs from a:
5.56 out of a 20 inch barrel are as follows
75 grain 1192
55 grain 916
223 from a 24 inch barrel are as follows
55 grain 958
35 grain 874
40 grain 937
50 grain 915
53 grain 1135
55 grain FMJ 983
55 grain v/z max 995
60 grain sp 988
68 grain HPBT 1098
75 grain 1209
300 BLK from a 16 inch barrel.
125 grain 1036
135 grain 985
110 grain GMX 1060
110 grain v/z max 1217 (50 yard)
The 5.56 and 223 numbers are taken from barrels 4-8 inches longer than those of the 300 BLK and it still can produce more energy with the 110 grain load of every load except the 68 and 75 grain 223 match loads. Now if you compare apples to apples and shoot them all out of a 16 inch ( which is where a lot of these AR uppers are at) the numbers for both (223, 5.56) would be even lower compared to the 300 than they already are.
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meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
dsd,
you don't want to restrict yourself to the typical lightest 223 varmint or M193 type / 55gr vietnam era loads and bullets.
I think that is what is confusing a lot of people about the 223/5.56 performance and capabilities.
Also speeds are a bit relative because hornady is not telling us the type of barrel/conditions and
the same load produces different speeds depending on the barrel maker, twist, rifling choice, etc...
I believe the V/Z max value you provided above is for 50 yards as it is really the same as the V-max but
in green colored tip, for zombies, you know.
The 223R / 5.56 from a 16" barrel performs as follows:
- Hornady 75gr TAP (tactical ammo) fired from a 16" 1:7 mil spec barrel gives 2,734fps avg. ...@100 yards 1,048ft-lb and 2,508 fps.
- The same load from a 16" lothar walter 1:6 polygonal SS gives 2,751fps avg...@100 yards 1,061 ft-lb and 2,524 fps.
- 77gr TMK Black Hillsfrom a 16" 5R 1:8 socom profile carbine vives 2,769 fps avg. ...@100 yards 1,116 ft-lb and 2,555fps.
- 80gr DoubleTAP from a 16" 5R 1:8 socom profile carbine gives 2,623 fps avg... .@100 yards 1,064 ft-lb and 2,447 fps.
These examples follow similar directives as the LBC/Grendel that is good bullets work really well at a distance while too light
for caliber bullets loose steam very fast.
The above are loads that I have tested. Hornady is great ammo and their velocities are a bit optimistic but not too bad.
It would be better if they gave us more data about the barrel or an actual firearm used for testing including popular 16" carbines.
But don't take my word for it, here is a link of double tap that like others actually take the time to test their ammo in
multiple firearms...
223 Remington 80gr. HPBT Match 50rds.
Buffalo bore who are great for hunting ammo also do that like a few others.
Also 77gr like MK262 and 80gr perform surprisingly well in barrels 14" long (SO) carbines.
you don't want to restrict yourself to the typical lightest 223 varmint or M193 type / 55gr vietnam era loads and bullets.
I think that is what is confusing a lot of people about the 223/5.56 performance and capabilities.
Also speeds are a bit relative because hornady is not telling us the type of barrel/conditions and
the same load produces different speeds depending on the barrel maker, twist, rifling choice, etc...
I believe the V/Z max value you provided above is for 50 yards as it is really the same as the V-max but
in green colored tip, for zombies, you know.
The 223R / 5.56 from a 16" barrel performs as follows:
- Hornady 75gr TAP (tactical ammo) fired from a 16" 1:7 mil spec barrel gives 2,734fps avg. ...@100 yards 1,048ft-lb and 2,508 fps.
- The same load from a 16" lothar walter 1:6 polygonal SS gives 2,751fps avg...@100 yards 1,061 ft-lb and 2,524 fps.
- 77gr TMK Black Hillsfrom a 16" 5R 1:8 socom profile carbine vives 2,769 fps avg. ...@100 yards 1,116 ft-lb and 2,555fps.
- 80gr DoubleTAP from a 16" 5R 1:8 socom profile carbine gives 2,623 fps avg... .@100 yards 1,064 ft-lb and 2,447 fps.
These examples follow similar directives as the LBC/Grendel that is good bullets work really well at a distance while too light
for caliber bullets loose steam very fast.
The above are loads that I have tested. Hornady is great ammo and their velocities are a bit optimistic but not too bad.
It would be better if they gave us more data about the barrel or an actual firearm used for testing including popular 16" carbines.
But don't take my word for it, here is a link of double tap that like others actually take the time to test their ammo in
multiple firearms...
223 Remington 80gr. HPBT Match 50rds.
Buffalo bore who are great for hunting ammo also do that like a few others.
Also 77gr like MK262 and 80gr perform surprisingly well in barrels 14" long (SO) carbines.
I looked at the bullet the typical guy on the street is going to buy at gandar Mountian and figured he is going to use a sub 800 dollar AR 15 because that is about par for the course. The typical AR owner is buying their ammo off the shelf and buying the cheapest stuff they can launch.
People like me and you who build our guns and don't spare any expense on a barrel are not the typical AR owners. I am nowhere near the caliber of builder that you are.
I still would not want to stand in front of either round at 100 yards.
You are right the v max is for 50 I didn't catch that.
Double tap used a 22 inch barrel Rem 700 for their Energy calculations.
I still believe that if the average person wants to stray from the 223 for a different caliber which is easy to get and cheap to get into the 300 BLK is the way to go. Otherwise they might as well step up to the AR-10 and get real performance.
The 6.8, 6.5 and all the others are either going to be harder to find or more expensive to get into.
In any case to each his own.
People like me and you who build our guns and don't spare any expense on a barrel are not the typical AR owners. I am nowhere near the caliber of builder that you are.
I still would not want to stand in front of either round at 100 yards.
You are right the v max is for 50 I didn't catch that.
Double tap used a 22 inch barrel Rem 700 for their Energy calculations.
I still believe that if the average person wants to stray from the 223 for a different caliber which is easy to get and cheap to get into the 300 BLK is the way to go. Otherwise they might as well step up to the AR-10 and get real performance.
The 6.8, 6.5 and all the others are either going to be harder to find or more expensive to get into.
In any case to each his own.
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meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Double tap normally tests several firearms. Here they test 3 rifles including a 16" off the shelve DPMS...
223 Remington 80gr. HPBT Match 50rds.
DPMS M-4 Carbine 16.0" - 2625fps
The average person might buy cheap/surplus 5.56 service ammo, 7.62x39 steel or even a 22LR to have fun at the range.
But when it comes to hunting with authority, winning competitions or simply hitting something at long range they are going to step up either premium ammo or a powerful new caliber.
An upper investment is a good way to go to upgrade calibers and remain semi-auto w/o investing on a new rifle.
The 6.8 is quite popular in terms of return for what one spends. Parts and ammo are plentiful and not more expensive
than comparable calibers. 6.5 LBC/Grendel is a bit more "refined" but also a considerable step up.
If one reloads the 6x45 is hard to beat and produces a 25% increase in output w/o doing much, just buying a barrel.
About same cost as the 223 or even cheaper 6mm value packs.
Excluding the exclusive WSSM and a few high pressure 308 bolt face alternatives there are plenty of options from very
easy to more costly.
I don't see anything wrong with the whisper. It can be a lot of fun to shoot specially in subsonic mode but it doesn't
offer the performance gain that some people claim. I like that people like their calibers but also lets put the real
data on the table, unlike his marketing guy who trolls many hunting forums misleading gun enthusiasts.
A lot of people do not care about ballistics but this doesn't mean they cannot learn nor there are people who care.
223 Remington 80gr. HPBT Match 50rds.
DPMS M-4 Carbine 16.0" - 2625fps
The average person might buy cheap/surplus 5.56 service ammo, 7.62x39 steel or even a 22LR to have fun at the range.
But when it comes to hunting with authority, winning competitions or simply hitting something at long range they are going to step up either premium ammo or a powerful new caliber.
An upper investment is a good way to go to upgrade calibers and remain semi-auto w/o investing on a new rifle.
The 6.8 is quite popular in terms of return for what one spends. Parts and ammo are plentiful and not more expensive
than comparable calibers. 6.5 LBC/Grendel is a bit more "refined" but also a considerable step up.
If one reloads the 6x45 is hard to beat and produces a 25% increase in output w/o doing much, just buying a barrel.
About same cost as the 223 or even cheaper 6mm value packs.
Excluding the exclusive WSSM and a few high pressure 308 bolt face alternatives there are plenty of options from very
easy to more costly.
I don't see anything wrong with the whisper. It can be a lot of fun to shoot specially in subsonic mode but it doesn't
offer the performance gain that some people claim. I like that people like their calibers but also lets put the real
data on the table, unlike his marketing guy who trolls many hunting forums misleading gun enthusiasts.
A lot of people do not care about ballistics but this doesn't mean they cannot learn nor there are people who care.
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
LOL omg my Dad used to get so pissed at me .. 600 in tackle and I'm catching fish on a stick and string with bread on the hook LOL ..
Mec that number for the 16 inch barrel I suspect is at the muzzle. If you look at the yardage info it starts at 2638 for 100 there is no way it is gaining velocity at 100.
In any case the blackout is not without its faults. The place where I really find fault with the 300 is in groups, I have never been able to shoot the 300 in groups as tight as I can the 223. Now that may be my fault, the barrel or the cartridge. I can ring steel all day long out to 200 yards ( I have not pushed it further intentionally) but I cannot get it to shoot less than 1moa.
In any case the blackout is not without its faults. The place where I really find fault with the 300 is in groups, I have never been able to shoot the 300 in groups as tight as I can the 223. Now that may be my fault, the barrel or the cartridge. I can ring steel all day long out to 200 yards ( I have not pushed it further intentionally) but I cannot get it to shoot less than 1moa.