Why .45 ACP “Sucks” for Self Defense

Podmonkey

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Yes, the manufacturer fixed the issue that the ATF had with the can cannon so the new modified ones are legal again. I'd love to have one, but I have no place to shoot it.
 
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freddy

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ECU Pirates said:
It worked for Alvin York. Thank god no frying pans were around that day.
Click to expand...

"And those machine guns were spitting fire and cutting down the undergrowth all around me something awful. And the Germans were yelling orders. You never heard such a racket in all of your life. I didn't have time to dodge behind a tree or dive into the brush... As soon as the machine guns opened fire on me, I began to exchange shots with them. There were over thirty of them in continuous action, and all I could do was touch the Germans off just as fast as I could. I was sharp shooting... All the time I kept yelling at them to come down. I didn't want to kill any more than I had to. But it was they or I. And I was giving them the best I had."

During the assault, six German soldiers in a trench near York charged him with fixed bayonets. York had fired all the rounds in his M1917 Enfield rifle, but drew his M1911 automatic pistol and shot all six soldiers before they could reach him.
 
Marine Cpl

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@freddy
freddy said:
C'mon now. Federal HST +P is 950fps and 461 ft lbs. That is a manstopper son! Knock down power of a full magazine worth of 9mm in a single 45 bullet! My uncle in vietnam smoked 13 gooks with only 7 rounds from his 1911! Twice!
Click to expand...
Not from a 3 inch barrel. It didn't even make 12 inches. :ROFL:

 
S&W Fan

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That's ok. I'll take my paultry .45acp+P 185grn. Hydra-shok @ 524 ft lbs.of energy any day against a BG intruder. I don't intend on getting into any street fights with it. I have plenty of other guns for that scenario.
 
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gqllc007

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I have done extensive ballistic gel testing with the .45 Shield.
Here goes and it's a long read....the end is the most important findings so feel free to skip to the end

With Shield .45
I did a clearballistics FBI BARE gel test today. 6"x6"x16" with wood backstop
It was 17 degrees F, 61% humidity, Pressure 30.3%
I used my .45 Shield
Federal HST 230gr= penetrated 11 1/2" expanded .82
Federal HST 230 gr +P= penetrated 11 3/4" expanded .80
Critical duty 220 +P = passed through block. recovered in wood .51"
Underwood Extreme defense 120gr=passed through block recovered in wood
Winchester Ranger 230gr (RA45T)=penetrated 11 1/2" expanded .75-.85"
Widest petal was .85
Winchester Ranger 230gr+P (RA45TP)=penetrated 14 3/4" expanded .75-.85
I then shot 4 more rounds of Ranger 230gr+P and they went from 14 1/2" to 14 7/8"
So with my little test I will be carrying the Ranger 230+P.
Just thought you might be interested in the results.
The Federal HST expand beautifully but don't even penetrate to 12" with the shorter Shield barrel.
Here is update.
I did Speer Gold dot 230gr Standard pressure=13"penetration with .625 expansion
Corbon DPX 185gr+P=14 1/2" penetration with .75 expansion
I still like the Ranger 230+P so far with 14 1/2-14 3/4" penetration and .85 expansion at widest point.
One Corbon turned completely around 180degrees
Both expanded nicely

Part 2

Using a Shield .45
Here is results from 4 layers of denim test using a 6x6x20" clear ballisticgel block. Temp 28degrees, humidity 47% and pressure 30.3inHg. Previous test done with bare gel is further below

With both HST and Ranger 230+p and 230 standard pressure was very inconsistent. Around half the rounds would clog with denim and pass through 20" with no expansion. When they did expand penetration was only 11 1/2" This was the exact same results as Federal HST 230+P and standard pressure. 3 out of 4 rounds would fail to expand and passed through
Hornady XTP 200 gr +P also failed to expand 3 out of 4 times and then one time it went to 19" and .51 expansion.
Magtech 230gr JHP failed to fire! The striker would not even dent the primer!
Underwood 120gr Xtreme defense did very well and penetrated to 17" 4 out of 4 times. Of course no expansion with the solid copper bullet
Corbon 165+P DPX expanded beautifully and penetrated 9-10" each time.
There were two clear winner's today. One was Corbon 185+P DPX and the other Underwood 120gr Xtreme Defender.
The Corbon 185+P DPX 4 out of 4 expanded beautifully and penetrated to 14 1/2-15" each time. It also performed exactly the same in bare gel.
The Underwood Xtreme Defender penetrated to 17" every time with 4 layers of denim.

Part 3

.45 Shield
January 20,2017
Weather 35*, Pressure 30inHg, Humidity 83%
FBI clearballistics 16x6x6 block with T bone 6x6x20" resulting in 22" in length
Block stored in 68* and utilized in 2 minutes of being outside
Block had one layer of each of medium weight nylon filled with polyester winter coat, followed by 200gr polartec fleece and 5.3oz Tshirt
This is typical winter attire here in NY. I used no denim as no one seems to be wearing denim around their chest
Results
Underwood 230+P XTP 20.5" penetration, .593" expansion
Underwood 185+P XTP 22" penetration, .55" expansion
Underwood 230+P bonded JHP 14" penetration, .677 expansion
Underwood 185+P bonded JHP 13.5" penetration, .690 expansion
Underwood Xtreme defense 120gr 17" penetration not designed to expand.
This Xtreme defense bullet went to 17" penetration in bare, 4 layers of denim and this test. Very consistent
Winchester Ranger 230+P over 22" and no expansion
Federal HST 230+P was the BIG surprise for me yet again. In bare gel it only went to 11 3/4" penetration and .880 expansion
In 4 layers of denim it passed through 20" of gel 3 out of 4 times. The 4th time in 4 layers it penetrated to 11 1/2" and .820 expansion.
Today the HST 230+p gr was STELLAR. Penetrated to 16" 3 out of 3 times and expanded to .859 on the widest one and .771 on the lowest expanded bullet.
So I did a 2 layer Hanes white cotton t-shirt test and the Federal 230gr HST+P penetrated to 13" and expanded to .875 on one round and penetrated to 13" and .818" on the other round
The standard pressure HST 230 did not do well at all in regards to penetration.
Through winter layers it penetrated 11-12" but expansion was incredible .912!!!
Through the two layer cotton t-shirt was 10 1/2'-11" penetration with .922 expansion!!!
Corbon DPX 185+P is by far the most consistent JHP so far out of the Shield. Penetrated to 14 1/2 to 15 1/2" regardless of bare, 4 layers of denim and this winter wear test. Expansion was between .750 and .780.
Looks like I will use Federal HST 230+P in the fall and winter time and undecided for the spring and summer. Either the Underwood Xtreme defense or the Corbon DPX 185+P

Part 4

So I did some more testing with my .45 shield. I used a clearballistic gel 6x6x20. I used 4 layers of denim that I purchased through clear ballistics.
Corbon DPX 185+p is the most consistent with penetration to 13-14 1/2". Expansion .819.
Golden saber 185+p penetrated to 16-17" expansion .740.
One failed to expand out of 7 rounds.
The surprise this time was 230 HST +P.
5 out of 6 failed to expand and penetrated past 20" into the wood. One only 2/3 of round expanded.
So now I will carry golden saber in the winter and Corbon in the summer.

FINAL!

Using a 5.3oz Cotton T shirt

The Golden saber 185+P penetrated to 14", 5 out of 5 times. All expanded .665" average
The Corbon DPX 185+P penetrated to 15", 5 out of times. All expanded to .817" average
Both are excellent rounds. The golden sabers are certainly loaded hotter than the Corbon
I will use Golden Sabers in Fall and Winter here in NY. Spring and summer Corbon's it is!
You would not go wrong with either one Both are consistent
 
Marine Cpl

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gqllc007 said:
I have done extensive ballistic gel testing with the .45 Shield.
Here goes and it's a long read....the end is the most important findings so feel free to skip to the end

With Shield .45
I did a clearballistics FBI BARE gel test today. 6"x6"x16" with wood backstop
It was 17 degrees F, 61% humidity, Pressure 30.3%
I used my .45 Shield
Federal HST 230gr= penetrated 11 1/2" expanded .82
Federal HST 230 gr +P= penetrated 11 3/4" expanded .80
Critical duty 220 +P = passed through block. recovered in wood .51"
Underwood Extreme defense 120gr=passed through block recovered in wood
Winchester Ranger 230gr (RA45T)=penetrated 11 1/2" expanded .75-.85"
Widest petal was .85
Winchester Ranger 230gr+P (RA45TP)=penetrated 14 3/4" expanded .75-.85
I then shot 4 more rounds of Ranger 230gr+P and they went from 14 1/2" to 14 7/8"
So with my little test I will be carrying the Ranger 230+P.
Just thought you might be interested in the results.
The Federal HST expand beautifully but don't even penetrate to 12" with the shorter Shield barrel.
Here is update.
I did Speer Gold dot 230gr Standard pressure=13"penetration with .625 expansion
Corbon DPX 185gr+P=14 1/2" penetration with .75 expansion
I still like the Ranger 230+P so far with 14 1/2-14 3/4" penetration and .85 expansion at widest point.
One Corbon turned completely around 180degrees
Both expanded nicely

Part 2

Using a Shield .45
Here is results from 4 layers of denim test using a 6x6x20" clear ballisticgel block. Temp 28degrees, humidity 47% and pressure 30.3inHg. Previous test done with bare gel is further below

With both HST and Ranger 230+p and 230 standard pressure was very inconsistent. Around half the rounds would clog with denim and pass through 20" with no expansion. When they did expand penetration was only 11 1/2" This was the exact same results as Federal HST 230+P and standard pressure. 3 out of 4 rounds would fail to expand and passed through
Hornady XTP 200 gr +P also failed to expand 3 out of 4 times and then one time it went to 19" and .51 expansion.
Magtech 230gr JHP failed to fire! The striker would not even dent the primer!
Underwood 120gr Xtreme defense did very well and penetrated to 17" 4 out of 4 times. Of course no expansion with the solid copper bullet
Corbon 165+P DPX expanded beautifully and penetrated 9-10" each time.
There were two clear winner's today. One was Corbon 185+P DPX and the other Underwood 120gr Xtreme Defender.
The Corbon 185+P DPX 4 out of 4 expanded beautifully and penetrated to 14 1/2-15" each time. It also performed exactly the same in bare gel.
The Underwood Xtreme Defender penetrated to 17" every time with 4 layers of denim.

Part 3

.45 Shield
January 20,2017
Weather 35*, Pressure 30inHg, Humidity 83%
FBI clearballistics 16x6x6 block with T bone 6x6x20" resulting in 22" in length
Block stored in 68* and utilized in 2 minutes of being outside
Block had one layer of each of medium weight nylon filled with polyester winter coat, followed by 200gr polartec fleece and 5.3oz Tshirt
This is typical winter attire here in NY. I used no denim as no one seems to be wearing denim around their chest
Results
Underwood 230+P XTP 20.5" penetration, .593" expansion
Underwood 185+P XTP 22" penetration, .55" expansion
Underwood 230+P bonded JHP 14" penetration, .677 expansion
Underwood 185+P bonded JHP 13.5" penetration, .690 expansion
Underwood Xtreme defense 120gr 17" penetration not designed to expand.
This Xtreme defense bullet went to 17" penetration in bare, 4 layers of denim and this test. Very consistent
Winchester Ranger 230+P over 22" and no expansion
Federal HST 230+P was the BIG surprise for me yet again. In bare gel it only went to 11 3/4" penetration and .880 expansion
In 4 layers of denim it passed through 20" of gel 3 out of 4 times. The 4th time in 4 layers it penetrated to 11 1/2" and .820 expansion.
Today the HST 230+p gr was STELLAR. Penetrated to 16" 3 out of 3 times and expanded to .859 on the widest one and .771 on the lowest expanded bullet.
So I did a 2 layer Hanes white cotton t-shirt test and the Federal 230gr HST+P penetrated to 13" and expanded to .875 on one round and penetrated to 13" and .818" on the other round
The standard pressure HST 230 did not do well at all in regards to penetration.
Through winter layers it penetrated 11-12" but expansion was incredible .912!!!
Through the two layer cotton t-shirt was 10 1/2'-11" penetration with .922 expansion!!!
Corbon DPX 185+P is by far the most consistent JHP so far out of the Shield. Penetrated to 14 1/2 to 15 1/2" regardless of bare, 4 layers of denim and this winter wear test. Expansion was between .750 and .780.
Looks like I will use Federal HST 230+P in the fall and winter time and undecided for the spring and summer. Either the Underwood Xtreme defense or the Corbon DPX 185+P

Part 4

So I did some more testing with my .45 shield. I used a clearballistic gel 6x6x20. I used 4 layers of denim that I purchased through clear ballistics.
Corbon DPX 185+p is the most consistent with penetration to 13-14 1/2". Expansion .819.
Golden saber 185+p penetrated to 16-17" expansion .740.
One failed to expand out of 7 rounds.
The surprise this time was 230 HST +P.
5 out of 6 failed to expand and penetrated past 20" into the wood. One only 2/3 of round expanded.
So now I will carry golden saber in the winter and Corbon in the summer.

FINAL!

Using a 5.3oz Cotton T shirt

The Golden saber 185+P penetrated to 14", 5 out of 5 times. All expanded .665" average
The Corbon DPX 185+P penetrated to 15", 5 out of times. All expanded to .817" average
Both are excellent rounds. The golden sabers are certainly loaded hotter than the Corbon
I will use Golden Sabers in Fall and Winter here in NY. Spring and summer Corbon's it is!
You would not go wrong with either one Both are consistent
Click to expand...
Now do all that through a hard barrier.
 
Marine Cpl

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Phauxtoe said:
Hey the Yanker
Does like 45, he is just a provocateur
Click to expand...
But what he does say is correct. For ammo capacity in a magazine, it falls short compared to other calibers. For hard barrier penetration, it falls short compared to other calibers. When it encounters bone, it at times slows down too much that it limits penetration. The only advantage you get is a slightly larger bullet but depending on the type of hollow point you choose in another caliber, it will expand to within one mm of the .45 Acp"s expansion.

There is not one Federal Law Enforcement agency who has to choose a round that passes certain criteria that chooses the .45 Acp. Why? Because of all the above.
 
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gqllc007

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Willjr75 said:
But what he does say is correct. For ammo capacity in a magazine, it falls short compared to other calibers. For hard barrier penetration, it falls short compared to other calibers. When it encounters bone, it at times slows down too much that it limits penetration. The only advantage you get is a slightly larger bullet but depending on the type of bullet you choose in other calibers, other calibers will expand within one mm of the .45 Acp"s expansion.

There is not one Federal Law Enforcement agency who has to choose a round that passes certain criteria that chooses the .45 Acp. Why? Because of all the above.
Click to expand...
I agree 100%. .357sig is a much better choice. Also 9mm federal HST 124 standard pressure has penetrated to 18" and expanded to .620-.636 25 out of 25 times through all sorts of media.
.45 out of a 5" barrel performs better but limited magazine capacity. I carried a Glock 32 for years prior to this safe act. Now it's a Glock 33
 
Marine Cpl

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gqllc007 said:
I agree 100%. .357sig is a much better choice. Also 9mm federal HST 124 standard pressure has penetrated to 18" and expanded to .620-.636 25 out of 25 times through all sorts of media.
.45 out of a 5" barrel performs better but limited magazine capacity. I carried a Glock 32 for years prior to this safe act. Now it's a Glock 33
Click to expand...
I agree. I think the Sig round is the best performer but for some reason it has not caught on.
 
dsdmmat

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Willjr75 said:
I agree. I think the Sig round is the best performer but for some reason it has not caught on.
Click to expand...
The bottle neck cartridge design is why it has not caught on. Americans don't seem to like or trust bottle neck cartridges in a pistol. All the major handgun cartridges in the US are either straight walled or tapered. It can most likely be traced back a 100-150 years when the manufacturing methods were a lot cruder.
 
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S

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dsdmmat said:
The bottle neck cartridge design is why it has not caught on. Americans don't seem to like or trust bottle neck cartridges in a pistol. All the major handgun cartridges in the US are either straight walled or tapered. It can most likely be traced back a 100-150 years when the manufacturing methods were a lot cruder.
Click to expand...
Both the 7.63 mauser and 7.62 tokarev are bottlenecked.
 
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